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The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP. Given what they have it seems like they can go cheetah mode and have a decent burst of power, but only while chewing through CP faster than a pedophile. (Heh.) Once those run out we lose a lot of power.

Example in a 1x SG unit and 1x DC unit list, you're throwing 4 CP turn one to get a 3d6 charge on the SG and an easy charge for the DC, not to mention 1 for an extra relic if taken, 1 to make a character a DC, and a probable reroll on something like a psychic power such as wings, or a die out of the 3d6 SG charge. T2 if they weren't able to deal with all 3 of the early charges, one of the surviving units will want to go berserk in the middle of their forces with 3 CP for a double fight, not to mention that a specialist squad such as company vets with melta/plasma may want to use wings of fire for 1 CP to relocate somewhere. That's anywhere from 7-11 CP in two turns, which leaves very little to be used on the likes of combat interrupts, hellfire shells, flakk missiles etc.

And of course building to accommodate for this massive CP expenditure rate means that other than the workhorse squads, everything else will be MSU spam, becoming a liability in kill points and hindering the chances of getting first turn.

I daresay most CPs in any armies I run will be burnt after the first turn, between Decent of Angels and the Death Company's extra movement. Suppose it's not too rough at least knowing where they'll go

Don't use SG and DC in the same list. That helps right there.

I'm not so sure on that, I seem to recall Death Company gaining some buff from being near Sang Guard (not entirely sure, might be entirely wrong).
In any case, I'm keen to run list where Death Company charge up the board, while Sang Guard deep strike in. With luck get two first turn charges off.

You can always use lemates to help the dc charge instead of spending cp

Personally though I am intending to throw in a guard brigade to give me the CP the BA need and hold the objectives

Not a bad idea at all, I was thinking a Tallarn deteachement woukd add some close range fire support if ever they got new models

Does anyone know if Blood Angels will be getting standard Lieutenants that can take JPs? This seems like it could be really big.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Does anyone know if Blood Angels will be getting standard Lieutenants that can take JPs? This seems like it could be really big.

Per one of the reviews, yes they will have the basic Lieutenant. The Codex Space Marines version can take a Jump Pack, so I don't see why the Blood Angels one wouldn't be able to.

So I if were to go for a pure Primaris army; is there a reason to use the new BA rules over vanilla marines?

 Darkseid wrote:
So I if were to go for a pure Primaris army; is there a reason to use the new BA rules over vanilla marines?

Yes. Blood Angels have some pretty sweet rules. The Red Thirst will be great with Reivers or even Intercessors (who can take a Chainsword on the Sergeant). The Upon Wings of Fire Strategem actually sounds like it will work incredibly awesome with either type of Inceptor. I am going to run a squad of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors just because now. You can still do Floating Murder Bus (Aggressors, Lieutenant, Gravis Captain, and an Apothecary inside a Repulsor) to decent effect. About the only unit that doesn't really work out well for Blood Angels is Hellblasters. However, charging those Hellblasters is going to be bad news.

So while they won't have some of the Blood Angels toys, they will still be good.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP.

My current list will have the following:
Battleforged +3, Battallion +3, Vanguard +1, Vanguard +1. That's a respectable amount. But I don't imagine many others will use that many scouts (you need at least 15 scout models). People like to downplay scout snipers too much.

 Melissia wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP.

My current list will have the following:
Battleforged +3, Battallion +3, Vanguard +1, Vanguard +1. That's a respectable amount. But I don't imagine many others will use that many scouts (you need at least 15).

I have found Intercessors to be worth the investment over Scouts. Right now I am trying to debate how I want to equip my Blood Angels ones though.

Do I want to give them regular Bolt Rifles and have them sit in my backfield, or do I want to give them Auto Bolt Rifles and have them running around?

I can't afford to "upgrade" my scouts to intercessors without having to remove a unit, causing me to lose one of those vanguard detachments. The additional CP is far more important.

 Melissia wrote:
I can't afford to "upgrade" my scouts to intercessors without having to remove a unit, causing me to lose one of those vanguard detachments. The additional CP is far more important.

Yeah, you're right. It sucks so bad that our Strategems are so expensive. They should be 1CP max. It isn't like they let us drop right in, we can still fail our Charge on Descent of Angels and Forlorn Fury is not a guarantee for a charge either.

It does. But on the bright side, once I get the book in front of me I'll see what I can do.

Unfortunately, none of the primaris characters can get the best BA relic...

Martel732 wrote:
Don't use SG and DC in the same list. That helps right there.

Ding Ding Ding! I understand the excitement but there really is no way to run both in a 2k list AND have enough CP's to guarantee everything and honestly thats a good thing. If they auto assaulted with both turn 1 and had CP's to burn after we would just have another codex in need of a nerf bat. Personally I think points can be saved across the entire army now by taking the humble powers sword in concert with character support thanks to the red thirst. The red thirst makes a standard marine in range of a priest wound most infantry on a 2+ and beat every vehicle on 4+ including t8... Heaven help them if they charge in new units to help since it keeps the ability triggering.

I think the Sanguinary guard are the hardest hitting unit, maybe in the game. Just don't take TH and PF on them anymore, there is no point lol. Sword encarmines across the board with the odd inferno pistol to shoot into walkers.

I think the key will be finding the proper build around one of the said units to provide enough support and CP's. I think if you force them to deal with a brick of SG or DC for the first 2-3 turns you should be locking up the objectives in the meantime.

 Melissia wrote:
It does. But on the bright side, once I get the book in front of me I'll see what I can do.

Unfortunately, none of the primaris characters can get the best BA relic...

Which relic is that? Veritas Vitae seems pretty decent and it could help keep some CP in the bank.

In other news, it disappoints me that BA Power Fists are effectively worthless now. We have some of the absolute best Power Fist bits.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It does. But on the bright side, once I get the book in front of me I'll see what I can do.

Unfortunately, none of the primaris characters can get the best BA relic...

Which relic is that? Veritas Vitae seems pretty decent and it could help keep some CP in the bank.

The hammer or the jetpack are the only ones I think.

The relics are pretty stout actually. The banner is probably what I think is the hands down strongest.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It does. But on the bright side, once I get the book in front of me I'll see what I can do.

Unfortunately, none of the primaris characters can get the best BA relic...

Which relic is that? Veritas Vitae seems pretty decent and it could help keep some CP in the bank.

The hammer or the jetpack are the only ones I think.

Definitely good. The hammer is pretty great on a Terminator Captain (what's this? There is a model for that? And I have him painted!). I am probably going to run the Veritas Vitae instead of the Jump Pack just to make sure I don't run out of CP. I decided I am going to add some Black back into my list (a 15-man murder squad) and they need Lemartes to be running alongside them.

The relic that extends intervention range is not to be underestimated.

Martel732 wrote:
The relic that extends intervention range is not to be underestimated.

That's a Warlord Trait. So even better.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Which relic is that?

Jump pack relic. Denying overwatch to a huge swath of shooty armies is extremely powerful.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't use SG and DC in the same list. That helps right there.

Ding Ding Ding! I understand the excitement but there really is no way to run both in a 2k list AND have enough CP's to guarantee everything and honestly thats a good thing. If they auto assaulted with both turn 1 and had CP's to burn after we would just have another codex in need of a nerf bat. Personally I think points can be saved across the entire army now by taking the humble powers sword in concert with character support thanks to the red thirst. The red thirst makes a standard marine in range of a priest wound most infantry on a 2+ and beat every vehicle on 4+ including t8... Heaven help them if they charge in new units to help since it keeps the ability triggering.

I think the Sanguinary guard are the hardest hitting unit, maybe in the game. Just don't take TH and PF on them anymore, there is no point lol. Sword encarmines across the board with the odd inferno pistol to shoot into walkers.

I think the key will be finding the proper build around one of the said units to provide enough support and CP's. I think if you force them to deal with a brick of SG or DC for the first 2-3 turns you should be locking up the objectives in the meantime.

There's absolutely a way to run both in 2k and still have 9-10 CP. Lemmy, a sanguinary ancient with relic banner, a full DC and a full SG squad only come out to 800ish depending on gear. You can make that a vanguard and fit two battalions in the other 1200. That's the list I'm probably going to be trying out at first, with a possible blitz of SG, DC, and Mephy in t1 for 4 CP, and then if something gets into their guts and lives to t2, charge everything around and burn 3 CP to double fight.

I am however considering doing two SG squads and staggering their arrivals across t1 and 2 instead though, as the DC strat wants first turn and the SG using the 3d6 charge out of deep strike don't care who went first. That would let me knock out Lemmy and do some other support things with the HQ slot like have a captain in the backfield with some ranged elements.

 Melissia wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Which relic is that?

Jump pack relic. Denying overwatch to a huge swath of shooty armies is extremely powerful.

Oh definitely. I want to rush that guy forward and have him be flanked by a murder squad of some sort. He gets in, then no one gets Overwatch against them. Take that Tau!

Or Guard for that matter. Oh, I'm sorry, 3 Leman Russ Punisher tanks parked too close together, who moved forward to try to get in range to obliterate my entire army in one turn, you don't get your 69 shots of overwatch. Also feth you too.

How good does everyone think an all dread army will be since they all came down substantially in points?

Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.

broxus wrote:
Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.

You'll have to post exact wording if you want a %100 answer or close to it but every single thing I've read on it and seen from others is that they don't get to move, you pick them up off the table (beginning of movement phase maybe?), Then place them at the end of the move phase just as you would for DSing units.

broxus wrote:
Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.

You set them up at the end of the phase. So you won't be able to move. I plan on trying it with a squad of Inceptors (probably Plasma).