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I've seen this debated back and forth, but can a terminator with a rapid fire combi bolter of any type fire then charge? Proof?

Maybe.
I whip out my proof.
Do I have any proof?

If they can shoot a heavy weapon and assault, then they can do it with a combi-bolter.

Since I don't see any lessening of assault cannon use, I'd assume they can.

No they may not. Its pretty clear in the rapid fire rules that you can't assault after firing a rapid fire weapon. None of the codexes give an exemption to this rule.

Hey Crimson Devil,

You are right, no codex does this. Luckily the BGB does. Page 36 in Italics:

Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

Examples: Bikes, Tau Crisis suits, anything thats slow and purposefull, Monstrous creatures, etc...

If you ask me: if you can fire heavy and charge, you can surely charge when rapid firing.

Cilithan out... 

Cilithan..

I agree with your logic.. if you can move & assault while firing heavy weapons, you should certainly be able to do the same with rapid fire weapons.  And, as a chaos player, I am fortunate that most of the gamers I know have no problem with this interpretation.

Unfortunately, if your opponent wants to insist that you may NOT assault after firing your combi-bolters, he has every right to.  Nowhere does the codex or any other rule set specifically state that models in Terminator armour are exempt from the standard Rapid Fire rules (as they do for, say, Tau Crisis Suits).

Actually, they don't.

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.'

If you either
A) count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons or
B) can move and fire heavy weapons

Then you can charge after firing.

It doesn't matter what you actually fired. You could have fired ordnance, and you can still assault afterwords.

It seems to me that line in the BGB means that units that move and fire heavy weapons OR units that count as stationary can charge after shooting. The second line does not seem all inclusive.

and this is yet another reason why this game isnt fit for competitive tournament play.

My, that really does sound like chaos termies cannot fire their bolters and charge. Well I'll be... GW strikes back.

Posted By Green Angel on 10/15/2006 7:08 AM
It seems to me that line in the BGB means that units that move and fire heavy weapons OR units that count as stationary can charge after shooting. The second line does not seem all inclusive.

I disagree.

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.'

The sentence "Such units can charge after firing." is inclusive of the preceding two examples in the prior sentence. The first sentence gives two examples ('Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons.), connected with an "and". This effectivly combines the two into one example in the sentence.

 The second sentence does not give a qualifier for what certain example in the preceding sentence it is directed towards. If it was qualifying a certain example, it would say  "Units that can (perform example x or y) can charge after shooting".

Thus, "such units can charge after shooting" is in fact, all inclusive.

I find Skyths interpretation to be accurate.

If it wasnt "all inclusive" to the prior sentence, then it opens up the question as to what it actually is inclusive of? The entire rules book preceding the statement?

Posted By skyth on 10/15/2006 6:17 AM
Actually, they don't.

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.'

If you either
A) count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons or
B) can move and fire heavy weapons

Then you can charge after firing.

It doesn't matter what you actually fired. You could have fired ordnance, and you can still assault afterwords.

You are adding words to the end of the sentence to attribute new meaning. All of the following could be true as it does not literally restrict what you fired:

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing any weapon.'

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing either rapid fire or heavy weapons.'

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing the weapon they counted as stationary for.'

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing Jim from accounting.'

Logically to finish the sentence one should take into consideration what the first part of the sentence was. Had then sentence been "stationary for rapid and heavy weapons" then logiclly it would give the ability to both, but it notes two seperate and different groups. As it is two clear groups the effects would work seperately for each one:

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing the weapon they counted as stationary for.'

I wonder of if the people saying that "if they can charge after shooting heavy weapons so they can surely do it after rapid fire" also allow terminators to fire once up to 24 inches if the terminator doesn't move, which the model clearly is not allowed to do.

I didn't add any words at all.

Adding 'the weapon they counted as stationary for' adds words and a meaning.

The sentence is simple...There are two groups. If you belong to either group, you can do x

In this case, x is can assault after firing. No where is there a restriction on what they fired.

I could be wrong snoogums, but I dont think there are any infantry that can both count as "stationary for rapid and heavy weapons". Its either "always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons" or " can move and fire heavy weapons".

The thousand sons and terminators come to mind when I think of the two entries. (I dont play chaos, can thousand sons terminators do both?)

I am not arguing with your logic, but GW's logic and real logic often differ drastically.

Perhaps GW worded it that way so that when referencing rules that say one of the two examples, it would be followed by "Such units can charge after firing".

The issue here is that the exception could be construed as to allow the terminator ability to rapid fire weapon and still assault. The model certainly is able to fire heavy weapons and still assault, in this case it can possibly also fire a bolter (at max range or rapid fire) and still be able to assault. In this sense the rules seem to overlap. For example, if a bike fires its multi melta is it able to assault? The rules for bikes say that the bolters can fire even if they have moved, as if they were stationary. However, AFAIK there is no rule that says a bike that fires a heavy weapon is still allowed to assault. My argument is that the overlap in the rule allows both terminators and the bikes to assault because both fulfills one of the two clauses, either firing a rapid fire weapon as if stationary or being able to fire a heavy weapon and still move. If one of those clauses are met then the unit gets to assault under either clause.

(Wow i'm a catterwalling circus act here).

snooggums
Had then sentence been "stationary for rapid and heavy weapons" then logiclly it would give the ability to both

If it said that, then the ability to shoot and fire would only apply to units that were stationary for both RF and Heavy weapons.

It notes two seperate groups, but then lumps them together for a specific action.

If you can X or Y, then you can Z.

The only way that Z is reliant on X or Y is that they are are the qualifier that allows it.




I wonder of if the people saying that "if they can charge after shooting heavy weapons so they can surely do it after rapid fire" also allow terminators to fire once up to 24 inches if the terminator doesn't move, which the model clearly is not allowed to do.

The bigger question in my mind is: Do the people saying that Terminators can shoot and assault with RF weapons also agree that the Defiler can shoot its battlecannon and still assault?

Well, maybe its a d6 issue then, there are great arguments on both sides from what I see.

Posted By insaniak on 10/17/2006 5:12 PM<em />
The bigger question in my mind is: Do the people saying that Terminators can shoot and assault with RF weapons also agree that the Defiler can shoot its battlecannon and still assault?

I hope not. Its explicitly forbidden to do so.

Page 29 of the rules. end of first paragraph under "ordnance weapons"

"Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase".

Posted By ATI on 10/17/2006 3:48 PM
The issue here is that the exception could be construed as to allow the terminator ability to rapid fire weapon and still assault. The model certainly is able to fire heavy weapons and still assault, in this case it can possibly also fire a bolter (at max range or rapid fire) and still be able to assault. In this sense the rules seem to overlap. For example, if a bike fires its multi melta is it able to assault? The rules for bikes say that the bolters can fire even if they have moved, as if they were stationary. However, AFAIK there is no rule that says a bike that fires a heavy weapon is still allowed to assault.

Bad example.

"Each Jetbike in a unit may fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike. If rapid fire weapons are mounted on a jetbike, then they are allowed to fire once up to maximum range even if the bike moved. In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the jetbike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn"

 

It is fairly obvious that there is a differentiation between the two groups. It says group A can fire heavy weapons, and group B can fire rapid fire weapons and they count as stationary. The final sentence says such units (groups) can assault.

Nowhere does it say if you are  a member of group A then you are of group B and vice versa.

A terminator can, by the rules, fire heavy weapons and charge. Nowhere does it say it can fire rapid fire weapons and count as stationary. Therefore, it is part of group A but not B, and cannot assault after firing a combi-bolter/weapon.

Posted By Hellfury on 10/17/2006 8:11 PM
I hope not. Its explicitly forbidden to do so.
Page 29 of the rules. end of first paragraph under "ordnance weapons"
"Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase".

It's also explicitly forbidden for models to fire RF weapons and then assault.

If we're going to assume that the rule on page 36 allows Terminators to assault after firing a RF weapon due to them being a unit that can move and fire heavy weapons, we're also going to have to apply the same reasoning to the Defiler.

Basically:
Terminators can move and fire heavy weapons. As per the rule on page 36, they can therefore assault after firing.

The Defiler can move and fire heavy weapons. As per the rule on page 36, it can therefore assault after firing.

If we go by the argument that the lack of a specification of WHAT the model is firing allows it to assault after firing any weapon, then the Defiler, as a model that can move and fire with heavy weapons, is able to assault after firing Ordnance.

Posted By Green Angel on 10/17/2006 8:36 PM
Nowhere does it say if you are  a member of group A then you are of group B and vice versa.

Nobody has claimed this to be the case.

There are indeed two distinct groups. That doesn't change the fact that they are both referenced by the rule, with no specific classification.

If you are X or Y, then you can Z.

That's all the rule says.

That doesn't make X and Y the same thing, it simply makes them two groups who, in a particular circumstance, can both Z.

'Z' in this case is 'assault after firing'

Not 'after firing the weapon to which their special rule applies'... just 'after firing'

Posted By insaniak on 10/17/2006 8:46 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 10/17/2006 8:11 PM
I hope not. Its explicitly forbidden to do so.
Page 29 of the rules. end of first paragraph under "ordnance weapons"
"Units using ordnance weapons may not charge into close combat in the assault phase".

It's also explicitly forbidden for models to fire RF weapons and then assault.

If we're going to assume that the rule on page 36 allows Terminators to assault after firing a RF weapon due to them being a unit that can move and fire heavy weapons, we're also going to have to apply the same reasoning to the Defiler.

Basically:
Terminators can move and fire heavy weapons. As per the rule on page 36, they can therefore assault after firing.

The Defiler can move and fire heavy weapons. As per the rule on page 36, it can therefore assault after firing.

If we go by the argument that the lack of a specification of WHAT the model is firing allows it to assault after firing any weapon, then the Defiler, as a model that can move and fire with heavy weapons, is able to assault after firing Ordnance.

I am not following the logic here. The topic here is rapid firing weapons and heavy wepons. Since when has ordnance been classified as a heavy weapon?

Ordnance isnt a heavy weapon as far as i know, so ordnance doesnt count towards this subject.

I do not see anywhere, where the rules contradict ordnance assault, as this subject pertaining to rf and hw assaulting after firing.

heavy weapons on a defiler = yes assault

ordnance on defiler = no assault.

Posted By Hellfury on 10/17/2006 8:53 PM
I am not following the logic here. The topic here is rapid firing weapons and heavy wepons. Since when has ordnance been classified as a heavy weapon?

It's not. It doesn't need to be.

Here's Skyth's breakdown again:

'Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.'

If you either
A) count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons or
B) can move and fire heavy weapons

Then you can charge after firing.


So, we have two distinct groups: 'stationary when firing rapid fire weapon' and 'move and fire heavy weapons' who can assault after firing any weapon.

This is what allows Terminators to fire combi-weapons and assault... they are a unit that can move and fire heavy weapons, so they can assault after firing any weapon.

The Defiler is a model that can move and fire heavy weapons (and also counts as stationary for RF weapons, for that matter) and so can likewise assault after firing any weapon.


Skyth actually mentioned Ordnance in his post as well, but I missed it until now.

That's what this interpretation comes down to... If you can do X or Y, then you can do Z. Z can be done with anything you like, because no restriction is placed on it.

This is the correct interpretation as the rule is written. I'm just not sure that Defilers assaulting after firing a battle cannon was what was originally intended...

ahh gotcha now. Thanks for taking the time and breaking it down.

 

The wording of the rule indicates that models that belong to the specific group can move and assault, not that they belong to the other group. Nowhere does it say a terminator can rapid fire and assault. You are using circular logic.

If X and do action B, and Y can do action C, and X and Y can both do action A, then X can do C and Y can do B....

Thats incorrect.

ATI says:

For example, if a bike fires its multi melta is it able to assault? The rules for bikes say that the bolters can fire even if they have moved, as if they were stationary. However, AFAIK there is no rule that says a bike that fires a heavy weapon is still allowed to assault.

Page 53 of the BGB reads:

(...) In adition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn.

BTW, allowing me to fire my reaper cannons and charge but not when I also fired my combi-bolters is silly. Especially as we all agree that Termies count as stationary when shooting. As far as I'm concerned there is no A and B, there's one category of models that can do tricksy things with RF and Hvy weapons, and that category of models can also do nasty things in assault that same player turn.

Cilithan out...

 

Posted By Green Angel on 10/17/2006 10:01 PM
The wording of the rule indicates that models that belong to the specific group can move and assault, not that they belong to the other group.

And once again, nobody is saying that they belong to the other group.

the actual rule:
Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing

This can be broken down into the following:

Some models count as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons. Such models can assault after firing.

Some models can move and fire heavy weapons. Such models can assault after firing.


The part that allows Terminators to assault after firing RF weapons ISN'T that they count as stationary for RF weapons, because they don't.

It's simply that the rule doesn't qualify WHAT the model is firing before they assault.

'Such models can assault after firing'

'Firing', without any sort of qualifier, simply means 'discharging a weapon'... not discharging any particular weapon (that would require some sort of qualifier on the end)... just a weapon.

So, Terminators, as a model with the ability to move and fire heavy weapons, can assault after discharging a weapon. The rule doesn't require that weapon to be a heavy weapon. It simply allows them to assault after they fire a weapon.

Cilithan it sounds like you and I agree, and thanks for clearing up the bike rules. Now I know that its okay for a bike to fire a heavy weapon and a rapid fire weapon and still assault. Rock and roll.  Hellfury I'm sorry for the bad example I'd refer to the very simple XYZ example from Insaniak for the explanation I agree with.

Insaniak has broken the argument down exactly as I would have. The vagueness in this rule and lack of discrimination allows for the interpretation to allow terminators to fire a RF weapon and still assault.  Simply if a model is RF and stationary or it can fire heavy weapons and move it is able to assault.

If the defiler fires an ordinance weapon and has rules regulating that issue then I'd refer to those rules first as they are more restrictive.

Posted By ATI on 10/17/2006 10:58 PM
Cilithan it sounds like you and I agree, and thanks for clearing up the bike rules. Now I know that its okay for a bike to fire a heavy weapon and a rapid fire weapon and still assault. Rock and roll.  Hellfury I'm sorry for the bad example I'd refer to the very simple XYZ example from Insaniak for the explanation I agree with.

Insaniak has broken the argument down exactly as I would have. The vagueness in this rule and lack of discrimination allows for the interpretation to allow terminators to fire a RF weapon and still assault.  Simply if a model is RF and stationary or it can fire heavy weapons and move it is able to assault.

If the defiler fires an ordinance weapon and has rules regulating that issue then I'd refer to those rules first as they are more restrictive.

Dude! Dont apologize, especially in YMDC. They will (meaning burnthexenos) think youre weak and then there wont be anymore ATI. No harshness meant on my end either, by the by. I dont play in the YMDC sandbox very often anymore, so if I come of a bit odd, thats my bad.

I think Insaniak has once again broken it down quite well. Terminators can simply rapid fire and assault in the same turn.

Green angel, you got your answer, with proof. Repeatedly.