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 ScreamPaste wrote:
"Vandal waits for the Inquisitor to finish, as he takes a look at his new squadmates. Judging by the equipment and posture of the dark-haired male, Vandal can only assume that he, much like Vandal himself, prefers seeing his enemy fall in close quarters, blade to blade. The man with the sniper rifle is obviously a guardsman, likely a marksman. The figure with the gas mask is likely also a guardsman, albeit one whose specialty eludes him. The woman of the Ecclesiarchy is clearly a filthy, vain, man-hungry whore, scheming to backstab the rest of the party to squeeze their manhoods and souls between her legs, devouring both."

Courtesy of Void__Dragon in a Dark Heresy RPG.

^Vouching for that. I'm in the roleplay as well and the cleric is my character.

She likes the mean guys, so he's probably getting dat ass later.

I regret nothing, and Vandal Varren regrets even less.

 Melissia wrote:
This is a forum, used for discussing topics. If you don't like discussing the topic, you are free to stop.

I think his point was more that, as nobody has any verifiable facts on whether or not female Guard would make any money, claims one way or another are essentially worthless.

The only verifiable evidence we have is that GW has not made any, and they're letting their flagship female line die a slow, barely-updated death.

Given that female soldiers are popular in non-GW lines, I'm fairly certain that we can provide some evidence that it is not some niche thing-- any more than GW as a whole is niche anyway.

 Melissia wrote:
Given that female soldiers are popular in non-GW lines, I'm fairly certain that we can provide some evidence that it is not some niche thing-- any more than GW as a whole is niche anyway.

Such as?

Privateer
Hasselfree
Copplestone
Raging Heroes
Statuesque Minatitures

I'd like to see proof that they're popular. Show me the sales figures please.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd like to see proof that they're popular. Show me the sales figures please.

Yeah cos I have access to those........................

The companies listed (and others) contonue to make many and varied female figures - they ain't doing it for the sheer fun of it..............

 Mr Morden wrote:
Privateer
Hasselfree
Copplestone
Raging Heroes
Statuesque Minatitures

I'm not familiar with any of those companies aside from Privateer - though if I'm thinking of the right one, aren't Hasselfree the dudes who make crazy over-sexualized miniatures?

The point wasn't that nobody makes female miniatures, the point was that female miniatures are remarkably niche, a point that I don't feel has been negated by the list posted. To use an analogy, and perhaps make this a little more clear: I'd love it if some of the big video game developers started making space sims like Privateer again. But they don't, because it's not profitable enough. That doesn't mean nobody's making space sims, it just means the big boys aren't. Because the market is much, much smaller than what they're aiming for. That, I imagine, is GW's position with regard to female IG.

Haseelfree make a wide range of figures usually based on film or tv - some of these are "sexy" - because thats what the character looks like on screen.

The fantasy /sci-fi market is already highly niche - apart from GW and Privateer who is a "big player" in this market?

Rachkham used to be - and had plenty of female figures -, Gamezone has plenty, the only one I am not sure is Mantic as I have not looked at their stuff recently?

Some companies advertise female minis for sale. That is all we can be certain of.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Some companies advertise female minis for sale. That is all we can be certain of.

Or just All sci-fi /fantasy mini companies (*) have female models - the number and quality vary within the range

(*) are there ANY that don't? Have not found any yet

Well, GW do have female body parts for Glade Guard.

 Mr Morden wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd like to see proof that they're popular. Show me the sales figures please.

Yeah cos I have access to those........................

The companies listed (and others) contonue to make many and varied female figures - they ain't doing it for the sheer fun of it..............

I know Hassle Free even makes female armatures for those of us with no sense of proportion and a desire to have some army chicks.

Speaking of no sense of proportion, a prime example of what the OP wants to get away from popped up on the Dakka Dakka blog feed this morning.

Which raises another point here. are we talking about adding "normal" females, or getting rid of all the ones that are out there that people are buying now?

Are they to be replaced? There are people who buy the models that are available for what they are now.

And as a "btw" touching on the original post a little, I do not think GW or the 40k universe particularly hates women, they are not well represented I admit but not hated. No more than any of the non-human races!! 8P

 Camkierhi wrote:
Which raises another point here. are we talking about adding "normal" females, or getting rid of all the ones that are out there that people are buying now?

The former.

Stop spazzing out and assuming that people want to take away your boobie-models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Camkierhi wrote:
they are not well represented I admit but not hated. No more than any of the non-human races!! 8P

So you're saying that they're not treated as human?


No, I'm not saying that 40k does that. I'm just playing off your poor choice of words.

We're talking specifically and only of GW. At least, I am. I can (and do) convert figures from other companies into female IG troops and other, non-IG female characters for Dark Heresy games.

Hell, I spent three months (not constant, I'm a busy man with only a couple hours a week to devote to miniatures) converting various non-GW figures to be the six female soldiers that were part of a PC's retinue of Inquisitorial storm troopers (total of 48 people in the platoon, six were female).

Another player in the campaign was using something from Reaper for the female Psyker-Witch he was playing. It fairly matched the Feral Psyker character's portrayal in the game.

And another figure came from some anime mini production company, being quite obviously a Battle Angel Alita (though not by that name) figure.

Thats ok then.

Don't actually have a single boobie-model mind you

Was actually just thinking of peoples choices there.

My son collects chaos and I have thus far steared him away from the "boobier" more risky models, though I doubt I will manage for too much longer. I have nothing against any of the current models available.
I will be getting these
http://statuesqueminiatures.shop033.com/p/7618481/sma002-resistance-fighters--helmeted-heads.html

And happily convert some cadians.

(sticking dummy back in now) Why do you assume the worst of us?

 mad_eddy_13 wrote:

Speaking of no sense of proportion, a prime example of what the OP wants to get away from popped up on the Dakka Dakka blog feed this morning.

Spoiler:

Oh god, SoB have contracted Marine tiny head syndrome!

It is a male dominated orientated hobby. though there is an issue of it, it doesn't affect my gameplay or hobby all that much

 Crimson wrote:

 mad_eddy_13 wrote:

Speaking of no sense of proportion, a prime example of what the OP wants to get away from popped up on the Dakka Dakka blog feed this morning.

Spoiler:

Oh god, SoB have contracted Marine tiny head syndrome!

They really need some more respect alright... Its getting past the "nuns with guns" thing into "bondage freaks with guns".

I remember one show where they had a bunch of drug smuggling, gun running nuns, led by a Desert Eagle (gold plated of course) toting abbess. It was fun and surprisingly epic and there are few things scarier than a nun with an MGL (Multiple Grenade Launcher) .

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Its getting past the "nuns with guns" thing into "bondage freaks with guns".

It has always been a mixture of both, really. Some people just like to dismiss one part or the other, be it because they want to sexualise them more or because they feel they are too sexualised already. Imho, things like flagellantism are a classic expression of religious fanatism and as such both Grimdark™ as well as entirely fitting with their lifestyle.

"Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"

 Lynata wrote:

mad_eddy_13 wrote:Its getting past the "nuns with guns" thing into "bondage freaks with guns".

It has always been a mixture of both, really. Some people just like to dismiss one part or the other, be it because they want to sexualise them more or because they feel they are too sexualised already. Imho, things like flagellantism are a classic expression of religious fanatism and as such both Grimdark™ as well as entirely fitting with their lifestyle.

"Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"

I was under the impression most religious suffering was done via fasting, 24 hour prayer sessions and sackcloth garments. Bondage is not an enlightening pain (unless you're into that kind of thing) - its nearly incomparable concept from religious suffering. There's a great difference between asking for an electric shock while tied up and being lit on fire while tied up.

Flagellation was common amongst the medieval Church.

That is, it's beating yourself with a whip (or having someone else do it for you). The early Christian sects were filled with all sorts of practices that we would consider odd by today's standards. They are, however, perfectly fitting for the Ecclesiarchy of 40K.

Well you cant find all that many normal women in mainstream media its hardly surprising they would be scarce in a niche wargame aimed at teenage boys.

In fact, except for the lowly guardsman you dont exactly find normal males in the background presented in the codexes. In some of the better novels you do find some "normal" people of both genders dealing with fantastic peril.

I find the most offensive aspect of the GW mythos to be the torture that is emphasized in the Dark Eldar and Dark Elves books along with the very casual treatment of genocide. I think it is quite sad that parents might be worried about a 3 inch tall miniature female showing bare breasts but are not at all put off by the ultra hardcore violence of the dark eldar.

mad_eddy_13 wrote:I was under the impression most religious suffering was done via fasting, 24 hour prayer sessions and sackcloth garments. Bondage is not an enlightening pain (unless you're into that kind of thing) - its nearly incomparable concept from religious suffering. There's a great difference between asking for an electric shock while tied up and being lit on fire while tied up.

Most religious suffering today, yes. From what I've heard, flagellantism was banned by the Vatican some time back as well - doesn't change that it was rather popular for a time, and still is in some circles.

It all comes down to perspective. Things we regard as kinky can be a very serious matter in certain religious circles, and in this case we are not just talking of a twisted version of humanity existing several dozen millennia in the future, but in addition to that also of state-raised orphans indoctrinated into becoming self-isolated fanatics who never had any normal sexual relations at all and thus are not likely to even notice how some of their habits might look to outsiders.
With religion, pretty much everything can be turned into dogma - I thought we have ample real world examples to show what strange forms this can take, from genital mutilation all the way to temple prostitution.

As for bondage - does this not qualify? Or what type of painful bondage are you referring to, specifically?

JWhex wrote:I find the most offensive aspect of the GW mythos to be the torture that is emphasized in the Dark Eldar and Dark Elves books along with the very casual treatment of genocide. I think it is quite sad that parents might be worried about a 3 inch tall miniature female showing bare breasts but are not at all put off by the ultra hardcore violence of the dark eldar.

That is a very big problem of modern society, I think. Not just limited to wargaming, but to culture in general.

Depends on your definition of misogyny. If you're going by the original definition, i.e. hatred of women, I completely disagree. Looking at it in the more common use of the word to include negative gender stereotypes then perhaps it is one insignificant example, but this is by far one of the the least harmless examples in modern society. Furthermore the examples given of GW models are being taken out of context.

Not reading through 30 odd pages to check but most of the models I've seen referenced after skim reading are fairly old sculpts and something that GW is clearly moving away from due to the pressure from the PC brigade [e.g. Dark Eldar human slave, assuming late 80s early 90s?]. Plus the Sisters of Battle are some of the oldest sculpts still available. 20 odd years is a long time and there was probably more of a macho/boys will be boys attitude towards women such as found in Loaded magazine. Also GW was a much smaller business with a very tongue in cheek attitude to miniature design. I'm pretty sure these models were designed to be funny rather than sexually stimulating. Check out the original Keeper of Secrets. Bare breast? Yes. Sexually stimulating? Not unless you find lobster cow monsters sexually attractive [same goes for the big claw daemonettes - boobs but no boner]. The models being discussed are being taken out of the context they were designed in.

Also, you could argue that some of the models are celebrating the female form. Saint Celestine is a kind of Joan of Arc figure, the original female action hero. Highlighting the feminine attributes could be considered an homage to women, in a similar way to some of the statues of naked pregnant women found in the earliest cultures was an homage to all things woman.

In terms of GW literature, I think that lots of positive examples have already been cited. I actually think that, considering nearly all GW literature is centred around war and their poster boys are space marines who are all male, positive female role models get quite a good look in.

And in comparison to some of the other more modern examples of negative stereotypical views of women and/or moral threats - Rhianna's videos? The countdown to Charlotte Church's 16th birthday in the Mirror? Brittany Spears dressing up as a sexy schoolgirl? Pornography on the internet? Trash magazines airbrushing and stretching photos of models and highlighting cellulite on celebrities? Fifty Shades of Grey? Plus pretty much any female lead character in a blockbuster you'd care to mention. GW's approach to women pales into insignificance.

Edit - oh, and in response to torture, I'm much more worried about the real torture of innocent civilians in the Middle East and Guantanamo Bay by real US soldiers than I am of the fictional torture in the fictional Warhammer universe.

I apologize for the fact that it has gotten over 20,000 replies beating any other thread, I originally thought it would last a minimum of 3 pages.

Don't worry, this is by far not the longest thread on dakka.
It could have been expected that this would become a heated debate, though, given that this is also an issue in the real world and that in the past there have been some wildly divergent opinions on the subject here just like anywhere else.
That does not mean that it was wrong to ask that question, however. Quite the opposite.

And even though most pages was back-and-forth between hardliners or repeat comments/questions by people who did not read the rest of the thread, I think there also were some genuinely interesting exchanges going on.

I've always liked the design of Halo's armor. I think the above picture would be a cool design to work off of for a female Elysian or Cadian design.