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2018/01/11 15:01:40
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.
I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.
The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.
We all know it's going to be nerfed but it's a question of the wording of the nerf: will it nerf anything outside of the Daemon Codex, anything with HERETIC ASTARTES keyword, anything with a PL higher than 20, etc.? It's the wording that's going to matter.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2018/01/11 15:03:22
Subject: Re:Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
I'm not sure he could be any clearer in that statement: Daemon Stratagems will only work on Daemon Codex units (and assuming Forge World Daemons as well).
2018/01/11 15:25:46
Subject: Re:Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
andysonic1 wrote: I'm not sure he could be any clearer in that statement: Daemon Stratagems will only work on Daemon Codex units (and assuming Forge World Daemons as well).
Well will it be FW daemons as well? If it is worded as Codex Daemon units only then FW Daemons won't be allowed, if it is worded as none Heretic Astartes daemons then FW will be allowed and if it is worded as no Daemons above 20 PL then it is only some FW daemons allowed. That's why I said it will be all about the wording of the nerf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 15:25:57
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2018/01/11 17:00:22
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
2018/01/11 17:09:39
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
2018/01/11 17:11:17
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Good old GW catering to Imperials. A Deepstriking Primarch is too much, but an outflanking Tallarn Baneblade (with or without ride hitching ogryns) that can't even fit according to its deployment restrictions is just fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 17:16:26
2018/01/11 17:14:34
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
2018/01/11 17:18:08
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
2018/01/11 22:37:33
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Nightlord1987 wrote: Good old GW catering to Imperials. A Deepstriking Primarch is too much, but an outflanking Tallarn Baneblade (with or without ride hitching ogryns) that can't even fit according to its deployment restrictions is just fine.
If lists that did this were viable, then I would have seen one of them at socal open, the monthly ITC tourneys at game empire, or at kastle konflict last weekend. Literally every daemon primarch list would have deepstriked them. The reason should be obvious. Baneblades aren't close range threats but primarchs are.
2018/01/11 23:09:57
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
Regardless, they can't attack units that they didn't declare a charge against that phase. So the bloodletters would have to suffer more overwatch to get all those extra units which would be included in that second attack because it's still in the same phase they charged.
2018/01/11 23:21:06
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Regardless, they can't attack units that they didn't declare a charge against that phase. So the bloodletters would have to suffer more overwatch to get all those extra units which would be included in that second attack because it's still in the same phase they charged.
yeah they can declare charges against everything within 12"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 23:30:35
Regardless, they can't attack units that they didn't declare a charge against that phase. So the bloodletters would have to suffer more overwatch to get all those extra units which would be included in that second attack because it's still in the same phase they charged.
yeah they can declare charges against everything within 12"
Yes.. the point is in order to use the stratagem to attack twice against additional units, the bloodletters would have to declare those units in their initial charge, opening them up to more overwatch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This also means that units that are outside of 12" cannot be attacked as they can't be declared as charge targets that turn. So essentially, if the screen is used correctly, this strategy of using bloodletters to break the screen, then attack into another unit behind it (which is beyond the 12" charge declaration range) won't work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 23:48:14
2018/01/11 23:50:01
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Regardless, they can't attack units that they didn't declare a charge against that phase. So the bloodletters would have to suffer more overwatch to get all those extra units which would be included in that second attack because it's still in the same phase they charged.
yeah they can declare charges against everything within 12"
Yes.. the point is in order to use the stratagem to attack twice against additional units, the bloodletters would have to declare those units in their initial charge, opening them up to more overwatch.
Depends on your definition of use the strat is. You can certainly use it to just get 6" of move toward the nearest unengaged models (but not attack said models) even if you didn't declare a charge on them. Whether that is worth 3cp and whether you can pull it off is situational, but often times it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 23:50:42
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2018/01/11 23:58:39
Subject: Re:Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Automatically Appended Next Post: This also opens up a weird situation of whether they can 'fight again' if they didn't declare those additional units as targets. Can a unit pile in and consolidate with this stratagem even when they can't actually attack.. using the fight twice stratagem for additional movement..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/12 00:28:09
2018/01/12 01:35:50
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
For a screen remover, bloodletters are great. They are reasonably cheap at 7 points per bloodletter, and they still have their 5++ save. Losing a bloodletter is not as painful as losing a marine (which costs at least 13 points). Yet, they can't be ignored because in close combat, bloodletters are far deadlier than a space marine.
Think of the bloodletters as your screen. You deep strike in, clear their chaff, try and consolidate into more units. But even if you can't, your bloodletters are still screening your characters behind them, and other dangerous hitty stuff behind them, and they must be cleared because if left alone, bloodletters are a substantial threat within themselves too.
2018/01/12 01:47:18
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
You can't burn 3CP on a 2nd attack strategem to consolidate into new units if you kill all the bubble wrap with the 1st swing.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
2018/01/12 05:43:00
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
You can't burn 3CP on a 2nd attack strategem to consolidate into new units if you kill all the bubble wrap with the 1st swing.
Why wouldn't you be able to? The rules certainly seem to allow it.
2018/01/12 07:05:49
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
You can't burn 3CP on a 2nd attack strategem to consolidate into new units if you kill all the bubble wrap with the 1st swing.
Why wouldn't you be able to? The rules certainly seem to allow it.
Ow maybe not. Though they had to be in CC to use it but that's probably just 7th edition thinking. It still seems like a lot of CP if they don't get to swing on the 2nd target if it was outside of 12" when the 1st charge was declared
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
2018/01/12 08:31:35
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
schadenfreude wrote: Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.
lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.
Charging the bunbleached wrap means the bubble wrap did it's job and whatever it is protecting gets to shoot another round.
That's why the Chaos God of War gave us his blessing with a 3CP Fight Again stratagem. Charge 3D6, pile in as much as you can, kill the bubble wrap, consolidate through the gaps, activate stratagem, pile in further through the gaps, fight to remove the remaining wrap, consolidate INTO everything you can. Because the stratagem is at the end of the fight phase, it means they cannot attack back after you use it. You've then tied up some of the enemy units.
I will concede that there are far better ways to go about removing bubble wrap, however I play mono Khorne so I've got to find ways to make things like this work with the tools I have. Those tools are mostly melee. They aren't the worst tools either, they just require a little more strategy and investment than others. I'm willing to make that investment to stay mono Khorne while staying as competitive as I can.
From what I remember they can still attack you back if you use the stratagem
I don't know why they would be able to since it is activated at the END of the fight phase, and just like things that happen at the END of the movement phase, you can't do anything with other units during this period. You can't deep strike something in and then move something else, because deep strike happens at the end of the phase. I could be wrong of course because GW could arbitrarily allow the opponent to fight back shoved in some FAQ somewhere, but RAW it wouldn't appear they can.
You can't burn 3CP on a 2nd attack strategem to consolidate into new units if you kill all the bubble wrap with the 1st swing.
Why wouldn't you be able to? The rules certainly seem to allow it.
Ow maybe not. Though they had to be in CC to use it but that's probably just 7th edition thinking. It still seems like a lot of CP if they don't get to swing on the 2nd target if it was outside of 12" when the 1st charge was declared
The bigger issue is what kind of mouthbreather would leave their juicy center in consolidation range of their screen?
2018/01/12 08:41:21
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/12 08:44:34
Subject: Re:Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
This is probably a question for YMDC, but can they use the fight twice stratagem if the bloodletters charged, and after resolving that combat are now only within 1" an enemy unit they cannot actually fight that turn (i.e. did not declare a charge against)? If yes it would mean they can't actually fight but could pile-in and then consolidate.
I don't think they can because the bloodletter unit cannot fulfill step 3 of the fight phase 'Choose Targets' in addition to steps 4 and 5.
From the rulebook step 3 choose targets, pg182 (emphasis mine):
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.
2018/01/12 09:00:09
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
The bigger issue is what kind of mouthbreather would leave their juicy center in consolidation range of their screen?
at ATC one of my opponents set up his electro priests just a few inches in front of his robbits and I even asked him if he was sure he wanted to do that. My Deathwing were able to consolidate into all three units on the first turn and I knew then that I'd won.
Of course that was very early in 8th edition; most probably know this by now.
According to the full leeks, It feels like the placement of the Renegade Knights feels... Haphazard.... Like. None of the Stragems or anything really affect them. Feels like they just stuck them in their, so CSM would have to buy a seperate book for them.
Also is it suggesting that the new codex is going to have entries for the 4 forgeworld Greater Deamon Lords? That doesn't seem right.
2018/01/12 10:18:56
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Boy, nurgle looks really solid. I really see everything building off each piece. The GUO and the herald which buffs him both make plague bearers and beasts tougher via regenerating models and less vulnerable to morale, the herald that boost plague bearers also boost the other heralds, including a movement buff so they can all keep up with the beasts and GUO, and the snail guy is tossing out buffs for the beasts as well his little fortifications which help everyone but the GUO, who is the likely beneficiary of his healing ability.
That's a really great dynamic, everything builds off everything else. It really makes an all nurgle demon army feel like a unified army in function.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/12 10:19:15
2018/01/12 10:46:06
Subject: Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)
Lockark wrote: According to the full leeks, It feels like the placement of the Renegade Knights feels... Haphazard.... Like. None of the Stragems or anything really affect them. Feels like they just stuck them in their, so CSM would have to buy a seperate book for them.
Also is it suggesting that the new codex is going to have entries for the 4 forgeworld Greater Deamon Lords? That doesn't seem right.
If you mean the google doc, the guy added random units to it. I'm not sure why. Lots of those units are not in the codex.
