Codex Deamons on the way! (Full leaks in OP)

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**Arachnofiend**

ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

Lose, basically. Most armies have access to some sort of screen though; Space Marines actually got off well with the only "elite" screening unit in the form of Scouts. The fact that they're squishier per point than a guardsman is a decent trade with the fact that they can deny the entire board from deep strikers before the game even begins.

**Kirasu**

ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

Lose and realize your army isn't designed for 8th ed 40k.

**WindstormSCR**

ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

most armies that don't have screens have infiltrators (SM scouts for example) I can't think of a single army other than Sisters of Battle that doesn't have some form of screening option.

**ERJAK**

WindstormSCR wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

most armies that don't have screens have infiltrators (SM scouts for example) I can't think of a single army other than Sisters of Battle that doesn't have some form of screening option.

And there's my problem.

Though to be fair, SoB have their own ways of mitigating deepstrike/ charge launch that plenty of other armies don't but that's in exchange to alway losing 1 or 2 fully packed immolators at the start of the game. (for those who are curious if you do deepstrike against SoB they can fill the rest of the board before the game starts so you basically have to footslog post-drop while they race around you and for lauch armies they do really really well with eliminating things that get tossed over to them. But again, they have to sacrifice a lot to do so. it ends up being 'did I get hit too hard to recover y/n?' Makes alpha strike games very binary.)

**Arachnofiend**

I guess Sisters have transports kitted out with flamers instead? You can push out your deployment zone with dominion squads as well. I'm not super familiar with Sisters though.

**Iron_Captain**

ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

Basically this:

Luckily, most armies can do screening more or less effectively.

**ERJAK**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I guess Sisters have transports kitted out with flamers instead? You can push out your deployment zone with dominion squads as well. I'm not super familiar with Sisters though.

Yeah, like I edited into my response, we still have ways to mitigate deepstriking but it creates situations where either we lose to much to come back or the deepstrikers are left so flat footed they might as well concede. Which is no fun for either person.

Launch armies are a more interesting match-up.

**axisofentropy**

8th edition requires a lot more LoS-blocking terrain than previous editions. I wish GW would emphasize this more.

**MajorWesJanson**

axisofentropy wrote:
8th edition requires a lot more LoS-blocking terrain than previous editions. I wish GW would emphasize this more.

And come out with more LoS blocking terrain period. The Sector mechanics stuff looks great, but only the big silo really blocks LOS. We need more like the Shrine of the Aquilla.

**greyknight12**

Grey Knights don’t have screens either, though to be fair if you drop a daemon right in front of them it might not go so well for the daemon...

**Spoletta**

greyknight12 wrote:
Grey Knights don’t have screens either, though to be fair if you drop a daemon right in front of them it might not go so well for the daemon...

As long as you kill it with something that isn't a grey knight or that demon will be knocking on your door again.

**tneva82**

Kirasu wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

Lose and realize your army isn't designed for 8th ed 40k.

8th ed very few armies are designed to be alone. Orks, necrons, tau...umm...what else? Necrons have it roughest likely in terms of screen.

**CthuluIsSpy**

tneva82 wrote:
Kirasu wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?

Lose and realize your army isn't designed for 8th ed 40k.

8th ed very few armies are designed to be alone. Orks, necrons, tau...umm...what else? Necrons have it roughest likely in terms of screen.

Scarab swarms. Necrons already have a screen.

**An Actual Englishman**

I wouldn't bank on retaining stratagems for cross codex play. Particularly given the Nid/GSC Cult situation and the fact that some of the stratagems are functionally the same so would allow you to cast the same stratagem twice.

I don't think Magnus or Morty will be effected by the loci either, shouldn't they have the loci on their data sheet? They're characters, daemons, etc etc Surely if the intention was for them to be affected they'd also generate them?

Seems like really bad game design when a player has 5 books they can refer to when running their army (2 codex, CA, index and rulebook). It's also inherently imbalanced, cross codex stratagem usage effectively means that imperial and chaos players have access to twice or even three times the stratagems of non soup armies which means they can do the same strategy twice in a round and they have way more flexibility. I thought they were trying to move away from encouraging soup play, not the opposite.

**tneva82**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
I thought they were trying to move away from encouraging soup play, not the opposite.

What made you think that? They want to sell models. The less restrictions you have on fielding different armies together the more incentive you have to buy models from multiple armies. They want to release unit and not only have that faction players buying it but also OTHER faction players to add them to shopping list.

GW benefits from soup. No surprise they make rules to support it. 8th ed is 7th ed up to 11 in souping up!

**An Actual Englishman**

tneva82 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
I thought they were trying to move away from encouraging soup play, not the opposite.

What made you think that? They want to sell models. The less restrictions you have on fielding different armies together the more incentive you have to buy models from multiple armies. They want to release unit and not only have that faction players buying it but also OTHER faction players to add them to shopping list.

GW benefits from soup. No surprise they make rules to support it. 8th ed is 7th ed up to 11 in souping up!

They repeatedly said throughout the launch period of 8th that they wanted to discourage players from taking things like super friends lists and having groups of units from totally different armies together.
The additional benefits if you take a detachment of pure [Chaos God] also support this. This is the reason we have things like chapter tactics, they are designed to encourage you to take mono lists.
E - they sell more models if you can't mix and match units so when you want to start a new army you have to buy enough models to start playing.

**Nym**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
They repeatedly said throughout the launch period of 8th that they wanted to discourage players from taking things like super friends lists and having groups of units from totally different armies together.

They may have said that at the beginning, but it's long gone, really.

There was a post on warhammer-community where they encouraged us to play Magnus and Mortarion together... I can find it for you if you want.

**Crazyterran**

Well, we dont have super friends anymore, we got super blobs instead.

**tneva82**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
I thought they were trying to move away from encouraging soup play, not the opposite.

What made you think that? They want to sell models. The less restrictions you have on fielding different armies together the more incentive you have to buy models from multiple armies. They want to release unit and not only have that faction players buying it but also OTHER faction players to add them to shopping list.

GW benefits from soup. No surprise they make rules to support it. 8th ed is 7th ed up to 11 in souping up!

They repeatedly said throughout the launch period of 8th that they wanted to discourage players from taking things like super friends lists and having groups of units from totally different armies together.
The additional benefits if you take a detachment of pure [Chaos God] also support this. This is the reason we have things like chapter tactics, they are designed to encourage you to take mono lists.
E - they sell more models if you can't mix and match units so when you want to start a new army you have to buy enough models to start playing.

And you took their words for it?-)

Saying and reality are two different things.

**An Actual Englishman**

tneva82 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
I thought they were trying to move away from encouraging soup play, not the opposite.

What made you think that? They want to sell models. The less restrictions you have on fielding different armies together the more incentive you have to buy models from multiple armies. They want to release unit and not only have that faction players buying it but also OTHER faction players to add them to shopping list.

GW benefits from soup. No surprise they make rules to support it. 8th ed is 7th ed up to 11 in souping up!

They repeatedly said throughout the launch period of 8th that they wanted to discourage players from taking things like super friends lists and having groups of units from totally different armies together.
The additional benefits if you take a detachment of pure [Chaos God] also support this. This is the reason we have things like chapter tactics, they are designed to encourage you to take mono lists.
E - they sell more models if you can't mix and match units so when you want to start a new army you have to buy enough models to start playing.

And you took their words for it?-)

Saying and reality are two different things.

Lol I can't fault this argument! Fair cop.

**lindsay40k**

Heh. I got the Triumverate set to add Guilliman to my Novamarines and Cypher to my DV Fallen. Fallen can’t have most of my DV minis, and the GK terminators I got to make a Detachment with Voldus are going to be an absolute liability against the very army they’re meant to be a Trap Card against - if they put enough wounds on a Greater Daemon to likely kill it, I may well end up having to use a reroll to pull their punches. “Lord Commander, the beast is weakened, could your sons please fire a few bolters at it? We’re literally the worst people in the galaxy when it comes to banishing these things for longer than five minutes” XD

**Matt.Kingsley**

All they said was they didn't want people to stack buffs from multiple factions.

For the most part, they've done that. The only overlap of abilities I'm aware of is in the Chaos Faction among same Aligned Daemons.

Which also means 'Supefriends' as it originally was is dead. You can't stack Thunderwolves with buffs from Dark Angel and a White Scar Characters anymore.

GW never said they wanted to discourage the mixing of factions wholesale.

**andysonic1**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
I wouldn't bank on retaining stratagems for cross codex play. Particularly given the Nid/GSC Cult situation and the fact that some of the stratagems are functionally the same so would allow you to cast the same stratagem twice.

Designer's Commentary - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Q: What is the difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword?

A: The only real difference is that Faction keywords are used when building an army; when Battle-forging an army, for instance, you will often only be able to include units in the same detachment if they share the same Faction keyword. Also, if you are playing a matched play game, you will need to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction keyword that is shared by all of the units in your entire army (with the exception of those that are Unaligned). Once the battle has begun, there is no functional difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword.

For example, when creating a Battle-forged army for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments; the first contains only units with the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, and the second contains only units with the Daemon Faction keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire army shares.Once the battle has begun, the distinction between keywords and Faction keywords no longer has any effect – both are used to interact with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains a unit of Possessed (which does not have the DaemonFaction keyword, but does have the Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to replace their <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and Daemon keywords.

Death Guard FAQ - https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_death_guard_en.pdf

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?

A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.

Games Workshop have made themselves very clear on this so far. I'm not saying they might change their mind eventually, but for now Chaos players should be celebrating the freedom they have been granted.

**Galas**

I only noticed 4 nurglings, where are the other two?

Spoiler:

**andysonic1**

Galas wrote:
I only noticed 4 nurglings, where are the other two?

Spoiler:

The three* sprues are overlapping so you don't see all of the one behind the one in the front.

**mrhappyface**

Galas wrote:
I only noticed 4 nurglings, where are the other two?

Spoiler:

Well I can see 5 in that image and, as andy said, they are overlapping sprues.

**schadenfreude**

So deamons can of different gods now need to be in different detachments. That's going to complicate things.

Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap. Skull cannons are good, but they are not good at mowing down large numbers of fodder such as cultists, guardsmen, or gaunts.

Tzeentch has the dakka to mow down hordes. 90 S4 shots from 210 points of horrors with +1 to wound will melt bubble wrap.

Slaneesh has 2 uses. Fiends locking everyone down in CC and reducing enemy attacks in CC. Without the later other nasty CC armies may give deamons a run for their money.

Nurgle is not synergistic with any of the other gods especially when compared to death guard. IMO Nurgle + death guard is the most powerful combination to come out of this book.

**andysonic1**

schadenfreude wrote:
Khorne has the deep strike hammer but has no tools to pop bubble wrap.

lol wot? The Bloodletter bomb can pretty quickly tear a giant hole in the enemy's bubble wrap, their Hellblades are brutal. Nearby auras from Daemon Prince's and JuggerHeralds make them even crazier.

**Ineedvc2500**

i dont know if this was discussed earlier but would the Deepstrike Strategym work for Magnus and or Morty?

**andysonic1**

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
i dont know if this was discussed earlier but would the Deepstrike Strategym work for Magnus and or Morty?

No it will not - Breaking news from the world of ITC - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page#9779234

Reecius wrote:
@andysonic1

Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.

I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.

The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.