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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

I've been following all the Eldar threads and one thing that strikes me is that people are looking more towards the Scatter Laser and Shurican Cannon than they are taking Starcannons.

I'm just wondering if anyone imagines that the Starcannon will stop being one of the most used weapons in an Eldar force anymore, Eldar players in particular after seeing the new Dex.

Did the new Eldar dex make it that much better to be a MEQ now?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I don't recall all of the prices for it, but I seem to recall that on vehicles it's 33% less effective for the same points. But maybe it's cheaper with guardians.

One thing is that fire dragons got so much better they'll pick up alot of the AP2 work that you used to depend on starcannons for.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

Voodoo, point for point, the only spot where the starcannon didn't loose effectiveness is on warwalkers due to the drastically reduced points values. Since the starcannon army works on maximizing starcannon shots, point for point, the differences between editions are:

Guardians: 3 shots for 90 (3rd), 2 shots for 105 (4th), efficiency drop of 43%
Vypers: 3 shots for 65 (3rd), 2 shots for 75 (4th), efficiency drop of 42%

Considering the fact that Guardians and Vypers are BS3 to begin with, a point for point reduction in shot / point efficiency of 40%+ is a significant hit.

The other selections are moot. Unless the "new" starcannon armies use a buttload of warwalkers, then, IMHO, the starcannon army is gone.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Firedragons are just toating Meltas right (the bump was upgrading them from S6 to S8)? Granted they can take a serpent or hitch a ride in a Falcon, but with only a 12" range I'm not entirely afraid of them as I would be of a massed amount of Starcannons, especially on things like Falcons, etc.
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

Voodoo:  A few things to consider before you pass judgement on what you should be more afraid of:

1.  Snakes on a plane are BS4 and combine for 5 5/9 MEQ.  They can also instant-kill MEQ heroes.

2.  A falcon has BS3.  The pulse laser and starcannon combine for 1 1/3 MEQ.

   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

I keep forgetting that Falcons can't become BS4 anymore. I agree that Firedragons unloading can be nasty, but they're still T3 4+, which means I can take them down easily, which isn't the case with a lot of the current Starcannon platforms that you'd have in this codex. Obviously Snakes on a Plane is going to keep my Terminators nervous, but it's not as hard on me as it would be with the previous dex from what I can tell.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





They won't disappear. They will just further subdivide. Under the old codex, I would run roughly one heavy weapon per 300 points of the list, mostly on tanks or wraith lords, in what I considered a balanced army. One third of this would always be lances, rounding down, so in a 2k list I would typically run 4 Star Cannons and a Lance or two. Given the fact that most SM lists are made up of a fair amount of Las/Plas units or ACs, it worked out to about the same level of shooty as the typical SM army of its size. The key differences being that the AC, especially when podded in, was all purpose, but the eldar firepower was all far more mobile. The aspect warriors and guardians (or Wraithguard if I was playing Iyanden) would carry most of the anti-armor role in my lists. The only time I ever fielded mass Star Cannons was when I was pissed at the person I was playing, usually in the form of the guided tripple war walker squad.

Under the current book, you are going to see one of two scenarios. Many people will rely on multi-prism lists to dole out their low AP shooting and use scatter lasers on all of their infantry chewer tanks, especially those running full mechanized. Others will simply dump their existing Lances in favor of even more star cannons and rely on the 40 rending attacks on the charge clowns or mounted Dragons to get it done against mechanized, using massed warp spiders to do what scatter lasers would otherwise be doing. I plan on going the prism route, because with the abysmal troop choices and the stupidly overpowered Vectored Engines upgrade, mechanized shooting is going to be the way to win with Eldar. Star Cannons will still be there because, at the end of the day, 90% of the field is MEQ and there is nothing between AP5 and AP2 for eldar.

The real issue with the star cannon was never addressed in this codex, namely that the eldar have like 5 bajillion S6 weapons and that low AP is king in 40k. They really didn't do much to make the other weapons more attractive as an option and every eldar player is going to inevitably compare them to the AC, which is extremely more points effective and any eldar player would have traded their Star Cannons for in a heart beat. Without using band aid rules, like rending, they could have made choosing weapons a lot more interesting. Here is what I would have done:

Star Cannon- Same points as old codex, but Heavy2 and S7
Scatter Laser- Heavy4 just like in new codex
Shuri Cannon- H4 S5 AP4, Cyclic Ion Blaster Rule (wounding rolls of 6 count as AP1, aka Rending without the tank busting BS)

There would still be a gap between AP4 and AP2 (if you don't count the still overpriced Reapers, who have to compete with Falcons and Prisms), but there would be drastically different reasons and applications for all weapons. Star Cannons would be better light vehicle killers, Scatters would be the generic shot dishers, and Shuris woud be the medium infantry chewers, more akin to a heavy bolter as they should be. Instead, we are back to square one and everything is still S6 and AP2 is still the holy grail of 40k.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





s7 h2 starcannon was what I would've liked

Did you know?: Tau plasma cannons are s7 h2

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The Ultimate, Strongest, Most Invincible Man in the Milky Way 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Starcannons were fine at heavy 3 as soon as 4th came out, making all those buildings 4+ cover.

And I say that wearing my marine player hat, not my eldar player hat.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

I also think you won't see the Starcannon disappear entirely. Starcannon heavy armies, most certainly, but not the Starcannon itself.

It is still our best Anti-MEQ heavy weapon, but because of it's low number of shots, in order to make it's points back you need to shoot at heavier things. In a game where Terminators and Carnifexes rain supreme the Starcannon will be there.

Best use of the Star Cannon:

War Walkers - War Walkers should always be in a squadron of 2, because then they will never be non-scoring. For 160, you have an average of 3 Dead Terminators. Hid them behind a forest, and wait for the boys to Deep Strike in. At best they will be stupid and fall within your range, at worst they will tr and avoid you letting your faster units out manuver them. Also War Walkers are the only method Eldar have of engageing TMC's at range (because of the high number of shots the unit can put out). And above all they are the best unit to utilize Guide. Guided War Walkers versus Doomed T6 TMC equals almost 5 AP 2 wounds! Might not be effective against a Dakkafex but consider that against expensive Gun Fexes or Hive Tyrants.

Falcons - Not as good as before, but they will work well. Because a fully kitted Falcon can dish out 7 Shots a turn, 4 of them will be AP 2 and all STR 6 and 8. So the Falcon still fits the multi-purpose tank role.

Wave Serpent - Probably too expensive, but Star Cannons can still be effective because it is twin-linked, and you can supplement the fire with the S. Cannon upgrade.


Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in ca
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Soviet Kanukistan

Mahu>

Just because a unit is "best" at something does not automatically mean that there is an army archetype that will maximize use of this "best" unit. You have to look at the overall scheme of things along with the associated points cost, and support structure. An example would be how Rough Riders are a fantastic assault units. However, to make an "assault" army with full roughriders seems foolhardy since there is no support structure in the IG list to augment this strategy.

Even if you maxed out with 3 squads, 2 warwalkers, kicks out 8 shots / turn with 4 hits, and 3 2/6 casualties. (or 10 MEQ / turn on average for 3 squads of 2) - discounting the fact that near every heavy weapon is almost guaranteed a shaken result due to paper thin armor, and the preponderance of 4+ cover essentially halving your effectiveness... With nothing to augment this shooting (or draw off shooting - or LOS blockage, the starcannon army is essentially dead. Instead of spreading out your cannons, they are all grouped onto a few very fragile units which can be killed with single heavy weapon shots. - Before anyone jumps on me for discounting Guide, - While Guide is a fantastic buff, it does not increase the weapon survivability at all.  It just makes every destroyed warwalker's loss more pronounced since you had a farseer sitting there to buff a now destroyed model and he's out of position to help the front line.

In comparison, since the best starcannon platform is in heavy support, a squad of dark reapers will dump out 10 shots with 20/3 hits and 40/9 kills, or 4 4/9 MEQs. In addition, Reapers have an additonal 12" range, and can take advantage of cover and fortune, albiet in a slighly less mobile form at a very competitive price point. In fact, BS4 reaper launchers have better MEQ performance than BS3 starcannon.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

Reapers have a better MEQ kill ratio, but like I already said, if you are shooting at MEQ's with Star Cannons, you are wasting points. I don't think I cna ever justify more than a single squadron of War Walkers, they are our anti-terminator, anti-tmc unit, units usually taken in small enough numbers that the War Walkers start paying for themselves.

And of course with any Eldar build you need to find different units to support the others, that is what a finesse force does. I am just saying in certain builds the War Walker Starcannon squadron of DOOM! might be useful. Maybe with some Reaper Support...

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

Also, I keep seeing people talk about having 4+ cover every where. Most of the Standard 40k Games I play, we rearly have ruins around, mostly forest and area terrain meaning a 5+ at best. Now Cityfight is another situation altogether, but I wasn't refering to that.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

Mahu> 5+ is still a theoretical drop in effectiveness of 1/3.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I just can't imagine too many situations where war walkers with starcannons are a good use of points.

I'll build some warwalkers because the models are cool, but I doubt they'll ever hit the table.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

But that is still best case/worst case arguement, which I get tired of. I laid out the possible use of such a unit, shooting at deepstriking terminators, how often are they in cover. Why shoot Lascannons at anything that isn't a tank if 5+ cover is such a concern. This is why theory hammer is only good to a certain point, a human mind is not capable of predicting every single battelfeild condition. So it comes down to what is in your list, which units you are going to have that suppports the other, your manuvering, and a bit of luck, that's what wins games.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

Mahu> The question here is whether they offer good return on points while occupying a HS slot. Your example discounts fire from the incoming DS terminators by assuming LOS blockage and no cover save for the target. How is this not considered "best case"? Aren't combined fire fireprisms both more effectuive and cheaper for dealing with the same situation? Is using all three HS choices for this purpose effective in the overall strategy?

IMHO, it is not.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

Your example discounts fire from the incoming DS terminators by assuming LOS blockage and no cover save for the target. How is this not considered "best case"?


Because that is the more likely situation. The hiding of War Walkers behind cover and allowing them to move into cover to fire their weapons, also with the rules of Deep Strike there is a 60% change that the Terminators are not on target. It might be considered "best case" but you need to consider the most likely situations, anybody deploying War Walkers in the open is making a grave mistake.

Aren't combined fire fireprisms both more effectuive and cheaper for dealing with the same situation?


Fireprisms on a combined shot are only AP3, and still you are using twice the points to do the same job.

Is using all three HS choices for this purpose effective in the overall strategy?


I already said no. Onlly one is neccessary, that opens your HS slots to Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, Falcons, etc.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

Posted By mauleed on 10/27/2006 10:05 AM

I just can't imagine too many situations where war walkers with starcannons are a good use of points.

I'll build some warwalkers because the models are cool, but I doubt they'll ever hit the table.



They have the same cost effectiveness that Starcannon War Walkers had before the new codex, and a lot of players where able to use them before.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By Mahu on 10/27/2006 11:51 AM


They have the same cost effectiveness that Starcannon War Walkers had before the new codex, and a lot of players where able to use them before.



Not effectively, or at least not that I saw.

And they've gotten worse.

The few times I've seen people field them, they either eat a pair of assault cannons and never shoot once, or they come out, kill one squad that cost far less then they do, then never shoot again.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in ca
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Soviet Kanukistan

Mahu>

Maybe I am being obtuse, but if you only use 1 slot, a full size squad of Warwalkers gets 12 shots, 6 of which get hits, 5/6 of which wound, and then the Terminators save 1/3, for a total of 10/3 or an average 3.33 unsaved wounds... your typical Marine player will remove everybody other than the ass-can guys... so I don't see how this is an advantage... as 8 return shots, 2/3 hits, 1/2 glance gives you about 3 glances, 100% of which are guaranteed to shake.

While I do not claim that theory-hammer should solely dictate your list design, it is a useful tool for predicting the expected outcome of certain matchups...

I really do not understand how in your example the Marine player wouldn't DS such that LOS can be drawn directly at the Warwalkers to begin with. I do realize that there is a good chance they'll be out of position, but there is a 1/3 chance they will be bang on and the walkers will be the worse for it. As such, I can't understand how you expect people to not see your example as "best case".

In addition, I'd like to point out that after DS, the terminators will be clustered, and as such, the fireprism's combined small AP1 template has the potential to hit a lot of models (partials, admittedly).  The other important thing is that the firedragon is much more durable than the walkers.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

Old Codex - 2 Warwalkers with 2 Starcannons Each - 200 Points

New Codex - 2 Warwalkers with 2 Starcannons Each - 160 Points (WD 322)

Old Codex had 12 Shots and the new codex has 8 Shots meaning a 33% reduction in Fire Power. Meaning to have the same effectiveness as the old Warwalkers the squadron would have to cost 132 points, as you can see there is a 28 point cost increase, to essentiall 14 points less cost effecient than before per War Walker. Whether or not 14 points is worth no longer being open top can be subject to debate, but I feel that they could still be useful. Like I said, it depends on the rest of your army.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

I really do not understand how in your example the Marine player wouldn't DS such that LOS can be drawn directly at the Warwalkers to begin with. I do realize that there is a good chance they'll be out of position, but there is a 1/3 chance they will be bang on and the walkers will be the worse for it. As such, I can't understand how you expect people to not see your example as "best case".


The War Walkers have a very long range engagement area, the Terminators would have to DS behind intervening terrain to avoid them, which is only good for you because now the enemy is fighting on your terms.


In addition, I'd like to point out that after DS, the terminators will be clustered, and as such, the fireprism's combined small AP1 template has the potential to hit a lot of models (partials, admittedly).


Why not just shoot them with both Fireprisms, I would rather use two AP2 templates on a clumped unit than 1 AP1 template.

The other important thing is that the firedragon is much more durable than the walkers.


Of course, that is why you take both...

Look I am not argueing that the War Walkers are nothing more than a one-hit wonder unit. Nothing in the Eldar list is meant to stand on it's own, you have to support each unit and outmanuver your oponents. A foot Farseer can Guide the Walkers the turn you expose them and doom the unit you are fireing at. You could take Eldrad and Guide the War Walkers and Guide a unit of Reapers and doom that Crusader Squad that needs to die.

I will restate my arguement, the best use of the Starcannon is on the War Walker squadron:

1. They make the best use of Guide

2. They can move-and-shoot.

3. They can pour out enough shots to make up for the lackluster Heavy 2 of the Starcannon

The effectiveness of the War Walker unit can be debated, but I think we will see them. It really depends on the compostion of the list in general. I know if I where fielding a Wraithlord or two, I would field the War Walker Squadron.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
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Soviet Kanukistan

I'll concede the 2 template thing.  I couldn't remember if the FP was AP2 or 3.

However, if I'm not mistaken, the terminators can shoot the turn they come into play... I'm not sure what's stopping them from shooting the walkers outright...?  Am I missing something here?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

However, if I'm not mistaken, the terminators can shoot the turn they come into play... I'm not sure what's stopping them from shooting the walkers outright...? Am I missing something here?


Hide your Warwalkers behind terrain near the table edge. When you plan to use them move them into Terrain and use their long range to get massed killing.

The Terminators, in order to get at the War Walkers have to Deepstrike very close to the edge. Quite a risk for a 200+ point unit to nail a 160 point unit. Best case they land right where they want to and kill the War Walkers, o.k., now they have to face the Fire Dragoons and Fire Prisms I have running around, considering the counter attack to be successful I am still up on Victory Points.

Or the Terminators can try and hide on cover, best case they make it in, the War Walkers if guided and doomed (which there is no reason you would not do that, because you know how fragile that unit is and you want to get the most out of them the one time you get to use it). You are still killing 3 of them and you are combining that fire with your other units.

Or worst case the Terminators appear in the open (which is the most likely scenario), than it is all fun from there.

You are assuming that the Eldar player is always putting the War Walkers out into the open rather than what they would probably do which is hid them for their one good shooting.

They aren't the most effecient unit but they could have their uses.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
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Agile Revenant Titan





Fayetteville NC

My only reason (initially) for keeping my 4 Starcannons in my 2000 point army is because I'm too lazy to paint some new weapons.

However, when the time comes around to paint, I'll probably keep one on my Wave Serpent. I'm typically dumping Guardians out of Wave Serpents. I'll have the WS armed with one and maybe the Guardian squad inside will also keep it. Other than that one unit, I'm probably going to switch the other 2 to Scatter Lasers. With my Eldar, my style of play was to throw down a lot of shots to force lots of saves/cover saves. I need as much shooting as possible as my Guardians are paper thin and can't sustain any return fire. Being able to put the support platforms in Wave Serpents can help and I look forward to playtesting them. I know the Starcannon is coming off of my Falcon and being replaced with a Scatter Laser.

Additionally, as my Ulthwe Seer Council will go under drastic changes, I don't have nearly as many Guides being able to be cast. This always helped me justify the expensive 50 point heavy weapon in my Guardian squads as I basically had them twin linked.

I think in the end, I'll end up with 2 Starcannons at 2000 points. I'm also beginning to get in games of CoD, where AP doesn't matter nearly as much as volume of fire.

Have I really been playing 40K for nearly 30 years? 
   
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Foul Dwimmerlaik





Minneapolis, MN

I think the starcannon armies will dissappear. If they do remain they will certainly change how they are deployed.

You either have to take all starcannon to make them useful, or you take lesser weapons for voluminous firing.

I think warwalkers really are the obvious choice to use massed amounts of starcannons as all other options to equip them with are too expensive in comparison with 3rd ed. Rememeber, Warwalkers are now no longer open topeed, have the dumb forcefield rule removed (honestly, when people did have the rare occasion to use walkers, when did the forcefield ever become a useful thing?) now have scout USR. If you were to use the expensive choice of Eldrad, using you warwalkers as pushback units, you could redeploy them to gain even better advantage then use the scout rule.

In that scenario, the walkers have a good chance of utilizing the starcannons before the unit gets hammered.

Personally I would save the 20 pts and use scatterlasers, making a full unit of walkers less than 200 pts. This is where theoryhammer doenst work for me, as math tells me the odds are still better when using starcannons to kill MEq, but experience has shown me that making the opponenet take a bucketload of saves is more deadly.

   
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Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

One reason I'm questioning if the Starcannon heavy army is going to go away is because as a MEQ player it just gives me even more of a reason to go Terminator Heavy. Right now playing against Eldar with a lot of Terminators is a nightmare, but if people stop dropping Starcannons for Scatter Lasers, then my Terminators just got that much better.

That's kind of why I think they're not going to go anywhere, everyone knows how popular Terminators with Assault Cannons are.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think that's a false dichotomy. Just because people stop taking Starcannons doesn't mean that Termies become much more worthwhile. As you say, everyone knows how popular Terminators with Assault Cannons are, and Eldar players aren't going to want to leave themselves wide open. They may not take Starcannons (and I don't think that they will), but they'll have just as much (if not more) ability to tear through 2+ saves.

While Starcannons are effectively gone, the price of Bright Lances skyrocketed for no apparent reason, so Eldar players have to look elsewhere for their anti-tank. Many (and I mean many) will find some in the form of Fire Dragons. Of course, a squad of 6 Fire Dragons puts out almost as much firepower as three old Starcannons, and just as much as four new Starcannons. Since Fire Dragons will be replacing both Lances and Starcannons in many Eldar lists, you can expect to see a lot of them.

Shining Spears also seem competitive now, and these things can do a horrible number on Termies. Turboboosting makes sure that they don't have much to worry about from the ubiquitous Assault Cannon (and Fortune renders them practically invulnerable), and a 227 point squad will knock down four Termies on the charge, on average, almost making their points back. I imagine that a fairly common Eldar response to Termies will be a 6-Dragon drop, averaging 2.22 dead Termies, followed by 4 more kills from shooting and charging Spears.

Finally, we have Harlequins, which a great many people are fairly excited about. I think it's pretty obvious that these will walk right over Termies. The Assault Cannons have a hard time seeing them and don't ignore their save, while they've got the hitting power of Genestealers.

As far as the lists that I've been trying out with the new rules go, I'm less capable of dealing with large numbers of Terminators (with Starcannons I could simply dance out of range and shoot them down over the course of the game), but I'm much more capable of wiping out 10 or so in a single turn while having firepower left over to deal with other threats.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

Starcannon armies may very well disappear, were it not for the work of dedicated activists petitioning congress as we speak to pass new legislation protecting the rights and breeding grounds of starcannon armies. Sadly, theirs is an uphill battle, for the MEq PAC is much better established, with several former Republican aides occupying key lobbying positions from their office on K street. Nevertheless, these activists, with help from the ACLU, the League of Women Voters, Sierra Club, and the International Union of Students for a Free Crone World are working hard to rally people to the cause of starcannon armies and their welfare.

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