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The daemon bomb is somthing that I have come to face many a time when playing against Chaos.  It is way overpowered I believe and causes chaos to always get the charge.  Think about this, Daemonettes on steed can scatter 12, fleet 12, charge 12 so potentially a 36" charge.  That is extremely overpowered. 

I was having a conversation about this with a colleague of mine while building my new list and about my hate for MEQ and Chaos.  Then he pointed out somthing interesting.  I QUOTE:

(Page 84 rulesbook)

Deep Strike

Some units are allowed to enter play via, tunnelsing, teleportaion, flying OR SOME OTHER EXTRAORDINARY MEANS.  Where this is the case it will noted in thier special rules.  ........

.....Troops arriving via deep strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive.  They may shoot as notmal but count as having moved.

He pointed out one interesting fact.  I understand that it may say that daemons may  move and/or shoot AND assault (Broken) on the turn they arrive.  However the discussion was that the CSM codex is 3rd edition.  The rules are 4th edition.  So sorry guys.  But no more of that crap.  Unless I am wrong.  The 4th ed rules supercede anything 3rd ed.  Correct?  What do you guys think?  Sounds like summoning is an extraordinary ability to me.   Also I would think the 4th ed supercedes 3rd correct?

 

Deamon Summoning is not Deep Striking, just very similar. Becasue they are different rules, the new Deep striking rules do not apply to them.

Smart Alex, just out of curiousity, are you aware of how long 4th ed has been out and/or how long demons have been assaulting on the turn they are summoned?

And what exactly do you count as "some extraordinary means" ?
Is infiltration now also suddenly deep striking?

The Chaos Codex has specific rules for summoning demons which very clearly allows them to move and assault after being summoned. It is not Deep Striking, so trying to apply a Deep Strike rule to demonic summoning simply does not work. If GW wanted it to work like deep striking, they should have FAQ'ed it at some point in the last two years 4th has been out.

I can sympathize playing against a hard army, but you simply need to learn how to defend against it until we see the beginnings of the new Chaos Codex(es) rumored to start the end of 2007.

No one has said anything about how daemon summoning is NOT AN EXTRAORDINARY ABILITY.

 

Please tell me how :

1: Daemon summoning is NOT AN EXTRAORDINARY ABILITY.

2: How does the 3rd ed Chaos codex supercede the 4th ed rules. 

 

If 4th ed has been out a long time then 3ed chaos codex must have been out even longer. 

Infiltration has rules separate from deep striking.  So unless you can reply and convinvce me of #1 or #2 then you cannot do this crap.  You are deep striking.  Call it what you will. 

My record against Chaos is not too shabby infact I either draw or win most of the time.  So i know well how to defend against them.  So address #1 or # please. 

 

by the way my IG record for 2005 is

37W-5L-3D so its not that Im complaining about losing.  Its about the rules.  Just cause all the chaos player bind together to ignore 4th ed rules does not mean it makes it right even though they have been doing it for a while.  GUess what.  Seems to me that you all have been doing it WRONG for a while.  So please address #1 or #2.  Other than that I dont wanna hear about how I need to improve squat or about how everyone has been doing this for a long time.  As of now it im in an RTT and someone does this I wont budge.  I dont see how unless someone can convince me otherwise. So far nobody has.

We don't need to prove any of your points.

If summoning was the same as deep striking, it would say it in the summoning rules, like it says under teleportation, tunneling, etc.

But it doesn't. So it is clearly not deep striking, therefore not subject the the deep striking rules.

QED.

Sorry to stray off-topic, but why do you list your 2005 record? 2005 is so last year. BTW, are you sure that you only had 5 losses last year. I am sure that I played you at least 5 times in 2005 and I won all of those games.

Conspiracy!

Only units that have the deep strike special rule may deep strike. The passage about extraordinary means that you are quoting is referring to things like using grav shutes, or some alien technology such as is mentioned in the deathwatch kill team rules. Any unit using one of those extraordinary methods still has the deep strike special rule. Summoning is very clearly spelled out in the chaos codex, and there are no rules about summoning in the 4th edition rulebook that would override those in the codex. If summoned units are giving you a very hard time, it is probably just because the list you use or your style of play happens to be vulnerable to that kind of attack. No army can be good at everything.

Smart Alex, wouldn't it be more productive to make a thread in the tactics forum asking about how to counter demon bombs, rather than trying to convince people that demons cannot assault after they are summoned?

okay, wrong.  and for a very good reason.  the rules you quote are the rules for the mission special rule "deep strike".  in the section you mention, they are nearly identical to the wording of 3rd edition's "deep strike" mission special rule.

note that daemon summoning is NOT deep striking, and so not affected by ANY of the rules that govern the deep strike mission special rule.

1.  daemons deploy on the large blast template, not from one model with rings forming around them in base to base

2.  daemons do not require that the mission being played allows deep strike

added to that fact, check the aforementioned 3rd edition rule book's deep strike mission special rule, which is, in the relevant portion of the rule, nearly identical.  it even mentions the "some other extraordinary means" phrasing that you're so fond of.  but the chaos codex was written in the era of this rulebook, specifically allowing movement and assault.  so, how does the new rulebook override the codex again?

oh, wait, it's not deep striking anyway, is it?  nope, not labelled "deep strike" at all.

so, pick whichever of my rambling refutations of your flawed reasoning you like, man up, and admit you're in error, so we can end this topic.

lol, i meant 2006

my 2005 record was like:

2W-14L-1D or somthing like.   That was when I first started.

We don't need to prove any of your points.

If summoning was the same as deep striking, it would say it in the summoning rules, like it says under teleportation, tunneling, etc.

But it doesn't. So it is clearly not deep striking, therefore not subject the deep striking rules.

It does not say it like it does under teleportation because they do not want to list every deep strike situation available. Necrons cannot move or assault or do anything other than shoot when they teleport. Even though teleportation is not deep striking per se. It is still subject to the rules. You cannot say that just because daemon summoning is not listed specifically that it is not subject to deep strike rules. It does say SOME EXTRAORDINARY ability. I do not need advice on how to defend against a daemon bomb because I already know how. What I need is a reference as to why chaos can deep strike or summon while getting to move and assault while, necrons cannot. The argument that just because it does not say specifically as it does teleportation does not stand. It says some extraordinary ability which sounds like summoning to me. Not to mention 4th supercedes 3rd ed.

So far Shade is the only one that makes a good point. This is because daemons arrive on the template not via circles around a model and therefore one could make the case I suppose that since they do not follow THOSE rules for deep strike that they do not need to follow the rules of no move and assault afterward. I will think about this some more. Of course anyone who plays chaos will probably be bias in their reasoning anyway =P just like chaos players who say they can summon while pinned.

When Chaos Terminators 'Deep Strike' or Obliterators 'Deep Strike', they may not move the same turn they landed. When Demons have been 'Summoned', as per the Chaos Codex, they may move and assault as normal.

Simply put, Demon Summoning is not Deep Striking. Shade made a good point as he had to point out the rules in the Chaos Codex to you, which apparently you seem to have failed to read. Next time, please read all relevant information before coming to some conclusion and trying to force it on us.

actually, i think the best point, and the most correct one, that i made was:

deep strike is a specific, named mission special rule

every unit in the game that may use the mission special rule "deep strike" has something along the lines of "may set up using the Deep strike rule", and then a statement of either "if the mission being played allows" or "regardless of whether the mission allows".

daemons do not have text in their descriptions that states they may use Deep Strike, rather they "are always summoned to the battlefield.  See the Summoning special rule for more details".

if you reference the Summoning special rule, it does not even mention Deep Strike, not even to say something like "this works like" or "similar to".

therefore, daemons do not, and in fact, are prohibited from, using the Deep Strike mission special rule.  if they had the capability to use the listed, very specific mission special rule, they would have it listed somewhere in rules that pertain to them.

they do not, therefore they are not deep striking.  they are summoned, the rules for which are contained, in their entirety, on page 12 of Codex:Chaos Space Marines.

if there is no special rule in a post 4th edition publication that goes by the name, or takes the place of, Daemon Summoning, then the rules contained in the C:CSM page 12 entry stand as written, and daemon bombs are as valid as ever.

RAW, and just plain correct.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/04/2006 4:03 PM
We don't need to prove any of your points.

If summoning was the same as deep striking, it would say it in the summoning rules, like it says under teleportation, tunneling, etc.

But it doesn't. So it is clearly not deep striking, therefore not subject the deep striking rules.

It does not say it like it does under teleportation because they do not want to list every deep strike situation available. Necrons cannot move or assault or do anything other than shoot when they teleport. Even though teleportation is not deep striking per se. It is still subject to the rules. You cannot say that just because daemon summoning is not listed specifically that it is not subject to deep strike rules. It does say SOME EXTRAORDINARY ability.

 

You've just glanced over the main point in my argument becasue it disproves everything you've said. Nowhere in the summoning rules does it mention deep strike. The teleportation rules on the other hand, do mention deep strike. It's two words, not like it's a huge amount of effort on their part. Therefore we can assume that summoning has nothing to do with deep striking. If summoning was deep striking, then you wouldn't be able to use it in any mission that didn't allow it.

You misunderstood me when I said that deep striking is not mentioned under summoning. You seem to have gotten it the other way round. If you look at rules in individual codexes about teleportation and tunneling, they all mention deep striking. The summoning entry is the only one that doesn't, therefore it is not deep striking.

When I saw the thread title I thought this thread would be some sort of revelation. A RAW interpretation that we'd all missed somehow.

Instead we get a guy with an impossibly ironic user title trying to argue that Daemons are governed by the Deep Strike rules, despite having no mention of Deep Strike in their rules.

I guess this is what happens when you close the Eye of Terror.

BYE

OMFG!!! H.B.M.C. that was so awesome!

GIT-R-DONE!

SmartAlex, the crux of your argument seems to be that demon summoning counts as a type of "extraodinary means"  for arival on the board that would make it subject to deepstrike rules.  You suggest that if the list of examples cited in the BGB (teleporting, tunneling, etc.) was exhaustive, demon summoning would be included.

However, that list of examples is merely a list of FLUFF EXPLANATONS for why a unit might have the Deep Strike rule.  Terminators and Warp Spiders with Surprise Assault have it because they teleport.  Raveners have it because they tunnel.  Several types of jump infantry have it because the flying ability afforded by their jump packs or possibly wings.

As it has been said several times here, demons don't have the Deep Strike rule.  They are not made subject to the Deep Strike rules simply because they have an extraordinary means of arrival on the table.

By your logic, Drop Pods should not get their special ability to reduce their scatter if it would take them onto impassible terrain.  Sure, they have that rule spelled out for them, but since what they are doing is essentially Deep Striking, the rule is moot because the Rulebook says that a Deep Striking unit is destroyed if it scatters into impassible terrain.

Obviously, this is not the case, as Drop Pods follow their own rules, however similar to Deep Striking they may be.

Why is there still people that think summoning is the same as teleportation/deep strike?

Also Demons on steeds cant fleet 12". i am sure its D6 not 2D6.

This was almost as entertaining as one of Burnthexenos's posts. Except Burnthexenos was, and knew he was (at least I hope so), stupidly joking.

Also, there has been re-printings of the chaos codex after 4th edition was released. By your logic, it supercedes the rule book, thus the summoning rules are more recent and over ride the rule book's deep strike rule in reference to summoning daemons. So not only are you wrong by intelligent logic and the rule book/codex, your also wrong by your own idea of what supercedes what.

If this is an influx from the EOT, at least we got some who use grammer and punctuation to some degree.

P.S I wouldn't go flaunting you W/L/D record that much, Smart Alex, that's just asking for scorn to be heaped upon you. Prove you right with the rule book, not several numbers separated by /'s.

Insecure people need to flaunt there win/loss records online. Inall fairness its not just Smart_alex who does this. It helps them compensate for other things.