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 Klerych wrote:

 motyak wrote:


I think he's from another city, but that'd make sense after what they said at my FLGS. Which is a real shame because despite the prices not being terrible on the distributor's page, I'd rather be able to pick them up and/or encourage some people to buy them at my FLGS where I could play a demo game with them. I really like Warmachine and would like to see more people give it a shout, but it's never going to be popular if it can't be bought at the FLGS. Sometimes people look at my minis and say that they're cool, but when I'm telling them more about it, they seem to be off-put by the fact that the only way to obtain them is on distributor's site. Having even a small stand with just the battlegroups and those two two-faction starter sets would really help as people could grab them, look at them and see if they like it. Otherwise it's just GW stuff and MtG/Yu-Gi-Oh boosters that make the profits.

Am from a different city. For example here the only way to get the big walkers , is to order them online from US. The stores can't order them here. Same with expansion packs for units. I know that some shops do orders of stuff , from stores in germany.

....and I'm back.

GW still not winning.

Deadzone and Infinity are doing Necromunda better than Necromunda ever did.

Give them a few years to deepen the lore and fluff and no one will remember Necromunda except for a few grognards.

Same with BFG. Firestorm Armada is constantly expanding the story, the ships, and the rules.

I think 40K may be dying in my area. The week of the Ork update there was a 40K local tournament the same day as an Infinity walkthrough. The tourney got canceled because only a couple people showed up for it (the second one to be canceled recently for lack of participants) while the Infinity table was completely surrounded.

I think it's a true sign of dark times when even the Ork players can't seem to get excited.

 Savageconvoy wrote:


I think it's a true sign of dark times when even the Ork players can't seem to get excited.

Wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhhh! do you expect?

Sorry.....I couldn't stop myself.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I get how you feel. I really do.

But it seems whenever GW does something good, its done something worse alongside it. So when the release schedule was faster and so on, it was also more rushed and along with it heaps of what many players would call garbage came with it.

With GW its 1 steps forward 2 steps back.

Thats how I feel anyway. Thats partly why I think people complain a lot too. They just dont do it the way we would think they would and it makes people question it.

I am surprised people would want the release process to speed up, but not expect a drop in quality. Some things should not be rushed, and people should not be surprised if something fouls up in the system when it is rushed.

This assumes the quality dropped, when most people would agree that the quality has remain about the same, which means it was average to begin with.

I don't think the quality has dropped. In some ways I think GW are doing better, though that is off-set by doing worse in other ways.

For example they are releasing codexes faster, but the quality of codexes has gone down.

The crucial difference is the prices have practically doubled over a few years, so the value for money has halved.

A good example is the new mono-pose character figures. They are not exactly the multi-option kits we may have hoped for, but worse, they are very expensive indeed.

$30 for a single infantry figure?

Here in the UK you can get two complete battle-packs of 2mm Napoleonics for $30 from Irregular Miniatures. That is four armies and two rulebooks (or two larger armies and two rulebooks.) 2mm is not everyone's cup of tea but it makes you think, "Shall I buy a Space Marine captain or shall a friend and I try out a completely new game for half the cost?"

http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/indexes/2mmindex.htm

The increased release rate should have no bearing on balance - anything missed by shorter play testing (ha... play testing...) could be fixed by an update after release but GW refuses to do this, just issuing some clarifications or fixing blatant misprints like differently costed helbrutes between language releases.

You contradicted yourself a bit there I think KK - "I don't think the quality has dropped.", "but the quality of codexes has gone down."

The average quality considered as a service/product for the consumer.

No-one liked it for a codex to take two or three editions to be updated, so it is good that they get updated a lot more quickly but the updates are in some cases less well written.

Taken as a whole there has not been a big collapse of quality but the price has gone up a lot and there hasn't been an increase in quality.

 Klerych wrote:
Well, that's what the guy who runs my FLGS said. Might be the distributor's strange policy(maybe they want to have monopoly due to them having their own online store?) or something. But yeah, that's the case here. :(

PP's official distributor for Europe is Simple Miniatures ( http://www.simpleminiaturegames.com/ ), since I've never heard of them having an online store, I think that your FLGS might not be dealing directly with them?!

Have your FLGS give them a call and see what they say. None of our FLGSs have reported the kind of problems and restrictions that you guys are talking about, they are pretty much free to stock the amount that they want...

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479

Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming that 40k is cheaper than Warmachines, since I don't think it is. This strikeforce is $225, easily gettable for <$200 from discounters. I don't know how it would stack up vs Warmachines though, maybe someone can compare?

WayneTheGame wrote:
I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479
Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

Hardly anyone.
But that bundle made you go to the store.
People that check out a store have the tendency to suddenly see something else they like and buy it.

It's like the gigantic army-setups that Warhammer stores have in front of the store.
You don't expect people to buy something like that, you expect them to get in the store and buy several other and smaller things.

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479

Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming that 40k is cheaper than Warmachines, since I don't think it is. This strikeforce is $225, easily gettable for <$200 from discounters. I don't know how it would stack up vs Warmachines though, maybe someone can compare?

Well for $225 that is a 1200 point or so army (I added a lot of upgrades, I don't think anyone would want to take all of the ones I used though). That is playable but still only 2/3rds of an 'average' sized 1850 force.

For $130 in Warmachine you can get the two player starter set which gives you 25 points of Khador, which is a little over 2/3rds of an average 35 point game (though some areas 50 seems to be average).

So $225 for 2/3rds or $130 for TWO armies that are both either 2/3rds or 1/2 of an average force.

Ignoring the actual number of models you get the Warmachine starters are laughably better value in terms of playability.

Don't forget rulebook and codex costs!

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479

Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming that 40k is cheaper than Warmachines, since I don't think it is. This strikeforce is $225, easily gettable for <$200 from discounters. I don't know how it would stack up vs Warmachines though, maybe someone can compare?

The SM Strike Force (one of GW's better deals actually, although the Drop Pod is kinda crappy to include and should have been a Predator or something cool) is a good *starting* army, but it's only a starting army - it's entry-level for ~$225; someone new would need to spend $360 to actually play (Rulebook + Codex). Even if we ignore the added cost of the rules, I came up with the following 35-point Cygnar army:

Cygnar Battlegroup - $49.99
- Commander Coleman Stryker
- Lancer
- Charger
- Ironclad
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Pistoleers - $34.99
- Arcant Tempest Gun Mage Captain (Unit Attachment) - $7.99
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. - $69.99
Captain Jonas Murdoch - $12.99
Journeyman Warcaster - $8.99
Squire - $9.99

Comes to $194.93, with the softcover MkII rulebook ($29.99) it comes to $224.92 and you can start playing the game, as well as play lower points games as 35 points is "approximately" equal to about 1500 in 40k, as 35 points tends to be the size for normal games.

What has had an affect on codex's as they are released is due to the Chapterhouse rulings against them.

GW used to write a codex absolutely complete with all the units they intend to publish so there would be a big release and a trickle of models to finish later.

The public demanded those missing models ASAP and chapterhouse started making them.

GW usually had the stance that since they made the models they had evidence against copying their IP but what do they do if someone else makes them first?

So now we see a trickle of models up front with rules published in WD then the later Codex release (a reversal of prior methods).

So they have to be doubly secret of the upcoming codex to prevent anyone beating them to the model release, they have older models to safeguard their spot and can re-release at their leisure but new units must be released first or with the codex.

These early releases seems to take some of the excitement out of it, making it a long drawn-out launch.

GW is kinda obligated to "recycle" some of the lore for these units (and they have a lot of it) which the new gamers really need to see but it is rough to read for the 20th time for us old timers.
Worst thing is the new models that would get new "fluff" get released with pretty much their stats and a blurb so we have to "forge the narrative" until GW gets that out.

Setting aside all the financial considerations of why they release the way they do, to keep control of their product I can see why they release how they do now.

Whoa, what is wrong with me?
Me hates the GW's just because!
There, I feel better.

 Talizvar wrote:
What has had an affect on codex's as they are released is due to the Chapterhouse rulings against them.

GW used to write a codex absolutely complete with all the units they intend to publish so there would be a big release and a trickle of models to finish later.

The public demanded those missing models ASAP and chapterhouse started making them.

GW usually had the stance that since they made the models they had evidence against copying their IP but what do they do if someone else makes them first?

So now we see a trickle of models up front with rules published in WD then the later Codex release (a reversal of prior methods).

So they have to be doubly secret of the upcoming codex to prevent anyone beating them to the model release, they have older models to safeguard their spot and can re-release at their leisure but new units must be released first or with the codex.

These early releases seems to take some of the excitement out of it, making it a long drawn-out launch.

GW is kinda obligated to "recycle" some of the lore for these units (and they have a lot of it) which the new gamers really need to see but it is rough to read for the 20th time for us old timers.
Worst thing is the new models that would get new "fluff" get released with pretty much their stats and a blurb so we have to "forge the narrative" until GW gets that out.

Setting aside all the financial considerations of why they release the way they do, to keep control of their product I can see why they release how they do now.

Whoa, what is wrong with me?
Me hates the GW's just because!
There, I feel better.

Yeah, that's true. GW does their release schedule because they're paranoid. Our point is that it's needlessly and counterproductively paranoid. Their fortress wall of secrecy does far more harm than help.

 Talizvar wrote:
What has had an affect on codex's as they are released is due to the Chapterhouse rulings against them.

GW used to write a codex absolutely complete with all the units they intend to publish so there would be a big release and a trickle of models to finish later.

The public demanded those missing models ASAP and chapterhouse started making them.

GW usually had the stance that since they made the models they had evidence against copying their IP but what do they do if someone else makes them first?

So now we see a trickle of models up front with rules published in WD then the later Codex release (a reversal of prior methods).

So they have to be doubly secret of the upcoming codex to prevent anyone beating them to the model release, they have older models to safeguard their spot and can re-release at their leisure but new units must be released first or with the codex.

These early releases seems to take some of the excitement out of it, making it a long drawn-out launch.

GW is kinda obligated to "recycle" some of the lore for these units (and they have a lot of it) which the new gamers really need to see but it is rough to read for the 20th time for us old timers.
Worst thing is the new models that would get new "fluff" get released with pretty much their stats and a blurb so we have to "forge the narrative" until GW gets that out.

Setting aside all the financial considerations of why they release the way they do, to keep control of their product I can see why they release how they do now.

Whoa, what is wrong with me?
Me hates the GW's just because!
There, I feel better.

Likely true, but still a terrible business practice. GW is too secretive and protective for its own good, and are so afraid of somebody else "stealing" their IP that they pull stuff like this.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Yeah, that's true. GW does their release schedule because they're paranoid. Our point is that it's needlessly and counterproductively paranoid. Their fortress wall of secrecy does far more harm than help.

I agree with you that a more open "dialogue" with fans should improve matters rather than leave them vulnerable to competition and this is not a new idea to me.

I too was just pointing out the other perspective that this is the possible "tactic" GW has chosen as a business decision right or wrong (and even then we cannot be sure...).

We presently have no understanding of their decision making so one can only assume the worst until proven otherwise (since dealing with rather unpredictable behavior).

I can find certain behaviors acceptable if that person/group is forced into it due to circumstances.

It just is funny how most businesses get better / more competitive with competition while GW somehow manages to get worse; very non-intuitive.

 Talizvar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Yeah, that's true. GW does their release schedule because they're paranoid. Our point is that it's needlessly and counterproductively paranoid. Their fortress wall of secrecy does far more harm than help.

I agree with you that a more open "dialogue" with fans should improve matters rather than leave them vulnerable to competition and this is not a new idea to me.

I too was just pointing out the other perspective that this is the possible "tactic" GW has chosen as a business decision right or wrong (and even then we cannot be sure...).

We presently have no understanding of their decision making so one can only assume the worst until proven otherwise (since dealing with rather unpredictable behavior).

I can find certain behaviors acceptable if that person/group is forced into it due to circumstances.

It just is funny how most businesses get better / more competitive with competition while GW somehow manages to get worse; very non-intuitive.

It comes from their closed off "yes-man" old boy culture at GW HQ. They're oblivious to the outside world and what's going on in the gaming world at large.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It comes from their closed off "yes-man" old boy culture at GW HQ. They're oblivious to the outside world and what's going on in the gaming world at large.

Because they ARE the gaming world

In other news, I played a demo of Bolt Action yesterday at one of the FLGS in the area, and it was amazing. It felt like the best parts of old 40k without all the BS; in fact it felt like what 40k should play like. Picked up a boxed set on the way out. Even the store owner was talking about how he's wanting to encourage more games than just 40k, which is great because the store is amazing (largest in the area), just for the longest time 40k was the only thing going on there, with everything else ignored or pushed out completely.

Everyone else is on the rise, and GW is on the decline.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
It comes from their closed off "yes-man" old boy culture at GW HQ. They're oblivious to the outside world and what's going on in the gaming world at large.

Because they ARE the gaming world

In other news, I played a demo of Bolt Action yesterday at one of the FLGS in the area, and it was amazing. It felt like the best parts of old 40k without all the BS; in fact it felt like what 40k should play like. Picked up a boxed set on the way out. Even the store owner was talking about how he's wanting to encourage more games than just 40k, which is great because the store is amazing (largest in the area), just for the longest time 40k was the only thing going on there, with everything else ignored or pushed out completely.

Everyone else is on the rise, and GW is on the decline.

Well, also because they don't game. If upper management was actually interested in/enjoyed the hobby, they'd be sampling the competition and you'd see them improving by "borrowing" their competitors' ideas. That's how most other industries work: somebody comes up with a cool way to do something and their competitors do something similar to try and keep pace.

These guys just think they're a manufacturing company and their rules are just marketing material.

 slowthar wrote:
These guys just think they're a manufacturing company and their rules are just marketing material.

Hate to say, that pretty much nails what I think their views are now.

 Talizvar wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
These guys just think they're a manufacturing company and their rules are just marketing material.

Hate to say, that pretty much nails what I think their views are now.

Games Workshop isn't a game company?

They need to get their act together.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
These guys just think they're a manufacturing company and their rules are just marketing material.

Hate to say, that pretty much nails what I think their views are now.

Games Workshop isn't a game company?

They need to get their act together.

I always found it funny that when they went to that, they didn't just put everything under the Citadel Miniatures banner (or like "Citadel Miniatures, a subsidiary of Games Workshop LTD"); IIRC the boxes still say Citadel on it. At least then there would be no "wat?" type of reaction when they try to sell miniatures; I mean you would expect "Citadel Miniatures" to be a miniatures company. you don't expect "Games Workshop" to not sell games.

 jonolikespie wrote:


For $130 in Warmachine you can get the two player starter set which gives you 25 points of Khador, which is a little over 2/3rds of an average 35 point game (though some areas 50 seems to be average).

So $225 for 2/3rds or $130 for TWO armies that are both either 2/3rds or 1/2 of an average force.

Ignoring the actual number of models you get the Warmachine starters are laughably better value in terms of playability.

Then again if you actually play it using the units from the starter you're most likely to lose, given the fact that both Bastions and Men-o-War are some of the most sub par units in the game, so you're pretty likely to have to buy more stuff for your army to actually be viable. Then again comparing the price to the price of a battlegroup you basically get them for free and they're pretty, pretty models so you can always just paint them and put on your shelf.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Pistoleers - $34.99

WayneTheGame wrote:
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. - $69.99

That's what really hurts me in Warmachine. 35$ for six mono-pose, non-customizable white metal miniatures. Another great(terrible) examples: 70$ for a squad of precursors(not even with the UA), 60$ for three cavalry models(Storm Lances) and my favourite example: 70$ for nine Sword Knights(with doubles of the same pose) with sergeant. Again - no Unit Attachment.

While Warmachine requires less* money to buy into it, the prices for individual units/models tend to absurdly ridiculous, especially when compared to what GW does with their plastics nowadays. I know because I play both games. That's why I know that if you take it seriously you're most likely to buy second army for two list format(with no overlapping) like every other non-casual WarmaHordes player and the costs add up pretty fast, but yeah, at least the system is better in terms of balance and rules quality.

 Klerych wrote:
That's what really hurts me in Warmachine. 35$ for six mono-pose, non-customizable white metal miniatures. Another great(terrible) examples: 70$ for a squad of precursors(not even with the UA), 60$ for three cavalry models(Storm Lances) and my favourite example: 70$ for nine Sword Knights(with doubles of the same pose) with sergeant. Again - no Unit Attachment.

While Warmachine requires less* money to buy into it, the prices for individual units/models tend to absurdly ridiculous, especially when compared to what GW does with their plastics nowadays. I know because I play both games. That's why I know that if you take it seriously you're most likely to buy second army for two list format(with no overlapping) like every other non-casual WarmaHordes player and the costs add up pretty fast, but yeah, at least the system is better in terms of balance and rules quality.

I agree (I weep every time I look at Iron Fang Pikemen. $85 for them, most expensive figures in the game :() completely. As I often post though, the difference is that Warmachine has a slow ramp-up cost for the most part, while 40k skyrockets. Yes, Boomhowler and Co are $70 (although there's a few places that offer 30% discounts) but they are also a nice chunk of a force, and being mercenaries can be used in multiple armies (largely irrelevant now with Unbound for 40k). I think they are like 9 points, so in a 35 point list they're 1/4 of your army, so to me at least that $70 goes a long way, longer than 40k where you need multiple boxes of things almost all the time. For whatever reason, I'd have no problem buying Boomhowler for $70 but I balk at the idea of buying let's say another Tac Squad + a Rhino, maybe because it feels like an insignificant part of my force.

I do agree though the price points are roughly the same, but it feels like you can start out gradually with Warmachine, while you can't with 40k. And that's not even getting into the rules quality.

I want to see Gordan Ramsey go into GW HQ and whip them into shape.

"This isn't a club house, this is a business, your business! Deliver a good product at a good price! It's so simple!"
But there'd be much more swearing.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I want to see Gordan Ramsey go into GW HQ and whip them into shape.

"This isn't a club house, this is a business, your business! Deliver a good product at a good price! It's so simple!"
But there'd be much more swearing.

But it'd be so worth it to see him looking over the model line.
"What is this?!"
"It's a Mutilat-"
"It's disgusting is what it is! Throw all this trash out and start again."

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I want to see Gordan Ramsey go into GW HQ and whip them into shape.

"This isn't a club house, this is a business, your business! Deliver a good product at a good price! It's so simple!"
But there'd be much more swearing.

But it'd be so worth it to see him looking over the model line.
"What is this?!"
"It's a Mutilat-"
"It's disgusting is what it is! Throw all this trash out and start again."

Gordon - Tell me what this is.
GW - It's a Taurox. It's rules are...
Gordon - I don't care about its rules. Look at it! It looks like someone vomited on the design board. It's so lopsided they call it Quasimodo!
GW - We thought it would...
Gordon - I don't care what you thought. What do your customers think?

I'd watch the heck out of that show.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I want to see Gordan Ramsey go into GW HQ and whip them into shape.

"This isn't a club house, this is a business, your business! Deliver a good product at a good price! It's so simple!"
But there'd be much more swearing.

You're charging HOW much for a single mono-pose plastic figure? Are you off your rocker?
Nobody is going to pay $500 just to start playing a game, you donkey!

As a big fan of Kitchen Nightmares, that would be hilarious