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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't understand why GW stopped making any other games. They have a load of production facilities and retail shops. It ought to be a snap.

It's such a shame GW stopped making other games, I'd have less complaints about GW and 40k if they still made Epic, BFG, mordheim, etc.

Well, they were extremely unpopular the longer they existed and overall died over time. I feel like I was one of the only like.. 3 people in my country that played BFG. When 40k started growing in size, Epic became somewhat obsolete as the miniatures couldn't get much prettier at that scale. Mordheim and Necromunda.. both should be brought back as Kill Team-like expansions for 40k, but they'll always be a tiny niche. I'm not saying that they should be discontinued, but they didn't really stand a chance back then and GW decided to focus on it's flagship titles. Funnily enough nowadays Dystopian Wars seem to be growing at pretty rapid rate while being pretty much about the same type of massive conflict as Epic. Firestorm Armada seems to be doing pretty fine(although not really -that- popular either) too, dealing in big starship battles.

My theory is that GW couldn't compete with full-fledged games from other companies with their little side-projects and had to smother them to focus on the only titles that are pretty unique to them and strong enough to survive. Especially when they devote all their resources to them, rather than spreading the team over several tiny games.

That's completely opposite to what looks like a very successful strategy from Mantic who have far lower resources. Mantic is establishing themseles as direct competitors to WHFB and 40K (with difficulties) but also have Blood Bowl and Mordheim competitors in full swing with Dreadball and Deadzone and Mars Attacks on the way. Also Dwarf Kings Hold, whatever that is ; p One of the arguments against Mantic however I guess is that yeah, they can lack focus and the ranges do need fleshing out. I just thought it was an interesting comparison.

I think the biggest reason is that GW is no longer able to innovate or even really refine their existing products. They can keep publishing more books, but it's still the same old 40k with just enough pointless changes to force you to buy the new book. And, thanks to GW's years of neglect, their other games were at the point where they needed innovation to find any success. All GW could do was cut their losses and brag to the shareholders about how they're "focusing on core markets" now.

 Peregrine wrote:
There's another aspect to it:

1) RAW for drawing LOS is broken, as models with no eyes (models in helmets, gun drones, etc) can not draw LOS and therefore can never shoot or charge.
2) The fact that RAW is broken was a cliche of "GW can't write clear rules" arguments for multiple editions.
3) Fixing the problem is a trivial task, if you accept that a problem exists and needs to be fixed.

Conclusion: the fact that GW did not fix the problem until 7th edition proves that they simply do not care about writing clear and functional rules, something other game companies are able to do without any problems. They are quite happy to publish rough drafts as $50-100 rulebooks and then hide behind a "4+ it" excuse, which shouldn't be considered acceptable behavior.

This. Exactly this.

 Klerych wrote:

Well, they were extremely unpopular the longer they existed and overall died over time. I feel like I was one of the only like.. 3 people in my country that played BFG. When 40k started growing in size, Epic became somewhat obsolete as the miniatures couldn't get much prettier at that scale. Mordheim and Necromunda.. both should be brought back as Kill Team-like expansions for 40k, but they'll always be a tiny niche. I'm not saying that they should be discontinued, but they didn't really stand a chance back then and GW decided to focus on it's flagship titles. Funnily enough nowadays Dystopian Wars seem to be growing at pretty rapid rate while being pretty much about the same type of massive conflict as Epic. Firestorm Armada seems to be doing pretty fine(although not really -that- popular either) too, dealing in big starship battles.

My theory is that GW couldn't compete with full-fledged games from other companies with their little side-projects and had to smother them to focus on the only titles that are pretty unique to them and strong enough to survive. Especially when they devote all their resources to them, rather than spreading the team over several tiny games.

The alternative was not to make them barely-supported side projects hidden away on the website, and put a little effort into promoting them so that people actually knew they existed. I remember when Epic was the third flagship GW game (now it barely has two), and the big pushes that Man O'War, Blood Bowl, BFG, Necromunda, etc had. And when they were actually supported and promoted, they were popular!

 Elemental wrote:

The alternative was not to make them barely-supported side projects hidden away on the website, and put a little effort into promoting them so that people actually knew they existed. I remember when Epic was the third flagship GW game (now it barely has two), and the big pushes that Man O'War, Blood Bowl, BFG, Necromunda, etc had. And when they were actually supported and promoted, they were popular!

Oh well, it's not like I'm trying to justify GW for doing so - I wanted to play BFG but the rest was pretty much non-existant in my country, so I didn't really get the opportunity to miss them at all. Maybe GW just felt that they can't put enough focus on all those games and would rather kill them than turn them into those shriveled appendages that should be sooner or later cut off? All in all, it was their decision. Good or bad, doesn't matter.

 Klerych wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

The alternative was not to make them barely-supported side projects hidden away on the website, and put a little effort into promoting them so that people actually knew they existed. I remember when Epic was the third flagship GW game (now it barely has two), and the big pushes that Man O'War, Blood Bowl, BFG, Necromunda, etc had. And when they were actually supported and promoted, they were popular!

Oh well, it's not like I'm trying to justify GW for doing so - I wanted to play BFG but the rest was pretty much non-existant in my country, so I didn't really get the opportunity to miss them at all. Maybe GW just felt that they can't put enough focus on all those games and would rather kill them than turn them into those shriveled appendages that should be sooner or later cut off? All in all, it was their decision. Good or bad, doesn't matter.

There are now entire profitable companies out there taking advantage of the void left by GW specialist games (Spartan for BFG and MoW, Wyrd for Mordheim, Hawk for Epic, Mantic for Bloodbowl and Necromunda, FFG for AE), do you really think that GW with its extensive resources and chain of stores couldn't make those games profitable for themselves instead of delivering them (and their customers) on a silver platter to competing companies?

Also, from what you're saying, your country seems to be very little into wargames in general (which I find pretty odd since it is the home of this year's WMH WTC that already has more than 300 people signed up), considering that even in my country, that has little wargaming tradition to speak of, we had more than a dozen people playing each of the specialist games back when they were actively being promoted by GW.

 Peregrine wrote:
I think the biggest reason is that GW is no longer able to innovate or even really refine their existing products. They can keep publishing more books, but it's still the same old 40k with just enough pointless changes to force you to buy the new book. And, thanks to GW's years of neglect, their other games were at the point where they needed innovation to find any success. All GW could do was cut their losses and brag to the shareholders about how they're "focusing on core markets" now.

It is easy enough to pay some people to sit around and think of good ideas for games, and even write them up with rules and so on. Not expensive and no risk.

None of that activity would be visible to the customer until the game got published. To get a whole new game with box, rules and models all done and distributed is a much bigger risk.

The last new game idea GW made was Dread Fleet, which was apparently a dismal failure. Perhaps that episode killed GW's appetite for risk.

What GW can do more easily is write new rules that use the models already available. And that is what they are doing with the dataslates and so on. Admittedly it is hardly innovative in the way I think you mean, since it just rides on the coattails of regular 40K.

Im pretty late to the party here but i just wanted to comment on the dropping of othe gw games.

Its fairly evident that they weren't as popular as whfb and 40k and needed updating. The problem is the age old saying of "gotta spend money to make money"

To update the games to try and get them to make more money...costs money and even then you would have no guarantee that the new and inproved mordheim, battlefleet, epic etc would even bring in increased revenue. So the smart thing to do is just drop them. You got to remember that GW is a vast corporation (much like the imperium of man in 40k) that satisfying customers comes second and turning a profit comes first. Although they can judge how satisfied their customers are by how much profit they make. Although you think they see us as souless money bags. The truth is probably closer to them not even knowing we are here when it comes to corporate decision making (much like in 40k the imperium doesnt know a planet is there until something happens on that planet)

Everything that happens is decided in board meetings. Yes they need people from this forum who are passionate about the franchises in those meetings but the simple fact is these meetings are discussions, not about how to improve their existing products, its about how to make more money. Yes an improvement to some product maybe the outcome, but its the outcome of discussing how to make more money.

A business/corporation doesnt exist to appease you. It exists to make the guy at the top money.

NOTE:
I am not trying to defend GW or praise them. I'm just trying to remind you that GW dont hate you, they just lurve money (dont we all)

I dont know every single person or know what the bigwigs (CEO etc) are like but I am just generalising because I see it in every internet forum ever. Take Call of duty for example. A new COD every year. You think they release a new cod every year to make gamers happy? or to make a bunch of money?

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

Spoiler:

Im pretty late to the party here but i just wanted to comment on the dropping of othe gw games.

Its fairly evident that they weren't as popular as whfb and 40k and needed updating. The problem is the age old saying of "gotta spend money to make money"

To update the games to try and get them to make more money...costs money and even then you would have no guarantee that the new and inproved mordheim, battlefleet, epic etc would even bring in increased revenue. So the smart thing to do is just drop them. You got to remember that GW is a vast corporation (much like the imperium of man in 40k) that satisfying customers comes second and turning a profit comes first. Although they can judge how satisfied their customers are by how much profit they make. Although you think they see us as souless money bags. The truth is probably closer to them not even knowing we are here when it comes to corporate decision making (much like in 40k the imperium doesnt know a planet is there until something happens on that planet)

Everything that happens is decided in board meetings. Yes they need people from this forum who are passionate about the franchises in those meetings but the simple fact is these meetings are discussions, not about how to improve their existing products, its about how to make more money. Yes an improvement to some product maybe the outcome, but its the outcome of discussing how to make more money.

A business/corporation doesnt exist to appease you. It exists to make the guy at the top money.

NOTE:
I am not trying to defend GW or praise them. I'm just trying to remind you that GW dont hate you, they just lurve money (dont we all)

I dont know every single person or know what the bigwigs (CEO etc) are like but I am just generalising because I see it in every internet forum ever. Take Call of duty for example. A new COD every year. You think they release a new cod every year to make gamers happy? or to make a bunch of money?

The difference between cod and 40k is that cod works.

PhantomViper wrote:

There are now entire profitable companies out there taking advantage of the void left by GW specialist games (Spartan for BFG and MoW, Wyrd for Mordheim, Hawk for Epic, Mantic for Bloodbowl and Necromunda, FFG for AE), do you really think that GW with its extensive resources and chain of stores couldn't make those games profitable for themselves instead of delivering them (and their customers) on a silver platter to competing companies?

Never said that those were good decisions for GW. ,)

PhantomViper wrote:
Also, from what you're saying, your country seems to be very little into wargames in general (which I find pretty odd since it is the home of this year's WMH WTC that already has more than 300 people signed up), considering that even in my country, that has little wargaming tradition to speak of, we had more than a dozen people playing each of the specialist games back when they were actively being promoted by GW.

Funnily enough Poland is -very- conservative and if you see someone playing something else than WFB, 40k, MtG, Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon(and lately X-Wing) in a FLGS, it's a day worth remembering. But that's mostly due to the fact that all the tabletop wargaming companies largely ignore Poland as a market and don't even try to advertise themselves in the community. And it's not that we don't want other games - there are quite a few Warmachine players trying to get others to try it out, but the prices PP gave us are fairly inadequate to the market and their policy towards FLGSes is off-putting for the owners. X-Wing is another great example that a good campaign, support and proper prices can spread the game across the community like wild fire. In a country that is not -THAT MUCH- into Star Wars. But without that, most new players only get to witness and later experience GW's games, so our WFB and 40k communities are thriving, especially that ETC comp is very popular here and everyone always aims for that format to later be able to sign up for ETC-comped tournaments and maybe even form clubs that'll aspire to take part in the ETC.

Dread Fleet felt like a failure from the get go. It was clearly a one off expansion, representing a piece of lore we have never heard before. Plus it was an offshoot of fantasy that didn't really create it's own factions. It was just mixed evil fleet vs mixed good guys fleet. Even if you loved the concept, we all knew that you could only play a limited set of scenarios, no room for personalised armies and therefore it would become tired very quickly.

I actually think that one of the main failures of GW now is the fact that it's two core games are large battle systems that need 2000-3000 points to be played optimally. Even 40k is being pushed that way with super heavies and generally more expensive unit types and rules.

That is a very off putting prospect to a beginner. I used to play fantasy back in 6th, but then sold off my armies and moved over to 40k. Now I don't really play either. However I really like the look of Fantasy in 8th. Tight, fun rules, great model ranges, almost all armies viable.

However, I have two problems. Ironically I remember starting GW as a 10 year old and imagining all the cool stuff I could buy when I was an adult and had money. Unfortunately, now I am a 25 year old I am more reluctant to drop $50 on a couple of pieces of plastic, and my job leaves me with little time to paint many models at a time.

So my first problem is force size. I'd love to get back into it gradually but the idea of 500pts games doesn't appeal to me because I know the game gets better around the 2000 mark.

Secondly, I am not dropping $500 on a game that literally none of my friends actually play. There is no way in hell I could talk them into it at the current prices, it wouldn't even be in the question.

Now, if I had a small Skirmish alternative, set in the same game universe (ala Mordheim) I could buy a handful of models, convince a dew friends to give it a try, and see if they got hooked on the lore and general feeling of the hobby.

Providing the rules are tight and it gives us a chance to draw from the existing fantasy ranges (in this regard it would need an update, I'm not talking about playing old rules for an unsupported system) The there is the chance that we might expand, that the allure of big battles might kick in. Or maybe we stay with Mordheim, but we are kept within the hobby then, ready for GW to try and sell something new to us, maybe Necromunda, maybe BFG. But currently, the choice is play one of two expensive, large scale games or stop playing, which actually removes people from the hobby.

GW has it's claws in me for one reason alone. The Black Library. I love the lore too much to quit cold turkey. And so I hover around these forums, I check their website. I wait for the day that maybe I will get back into it. But every update where I see the now awful fluff codex background and rules that get worse every time, I start to lose faith that anything will bring me back. In all honesty,

Even now, GW are poisoning the BL. I'm sick of limited exclusives that charge 4 times as much for a book half the size of a standard novel, for a usually pointless short story. Fed up of Premium hardbacks and having to wait months to get an affordable paperback. Fed up a HH series which is now so full of filler it looks like we will never get to Terra. Which wouldn't even be so bad if they didn't start contradicting their own fluff within the same series!

All in all, GW is offering very little to those who are not already devout followers. I don't think it will die in the next few years. But slowly, it will die and eventually it will be forgotten if it doesn't inject some new life into the hobby.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I think the biggest reason is that GW is no longer able to innovate or even really refine their existing products. They can keep publishing more books, but it's still the same old 40k with just enough pointless changes to force you to buy the new book. And, thanks to GW's years of neglect, their other games were at the point where they needed innovation to find any success. All GW could do was cut their losses and brag to the shareholders about how they're "focusing on core markets" now.

It is easy enough to pay some people to sit around and think of good ideas for games, and even write them up with rules and so on. Not expensive and no risk.

None of that activity would be visible to the customer until the game got published. To get a whole new game with box, rules and models all done and distributed is a much bigger risk.

The last new game idea GW made was Dread Fleet, which was apparently a dismal failure. Perhaps that episode killed GW's appetite for risk.

What GW can do more easily is write new rules that use the models already available. And that is what they are doing with the dataslates and so on. Admittedly it is hardly innovative in the way I think you mean, since it just rides on the coattails of regular 40K.

Deadfleet failed because it included a whole new box set, including gaming board, miniatures etc. That means it required more upfront cost, as well as requiring a larger return on its investment. If GW release a new rulebook that can be used with existing 40k miniatures it will a) be a lot cheaper to produce and b)be a lot less risky. I'd like to see a small-scale 40k, like necromunda used to be, and a large-scale 40k that was more squad-based than 40k and could handle >2000pt games.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Im pretty late to the party here but i just wanted to comment on the dropping of othe gw games.

Its fairly evident that they weren't as popular as whfb and 40k and needed updating. The problem is the age old saying of "gotta spend money to make money"

To update the games to try and get them to make more money...costs money and even then you would have no guarantee that the new and inproved mordheim, battlefleet, epic etc would even bring in increased revenue. So the smart thing to do is just drop them. You got to remember that GW is a vast corporation (much like the imperium of man in 40k) that satisfying customers comes second and turning a profit comes first. Although they can judge how satisfied their customers are by how much profit they make. Although you think they see us as souless money bags. The truth is probably closer to them not even knowing we are here when it comes to corporate decision making (much like in 40k the imperium doesnt know a planet is there until something happens on that planet)

Everything that happens is decided in board meetings. Yes they need people from this forum who are passionate about the franchises in those meetings but the simple fact is these meetings are discussions, not about how to improve their existing products, its about how to make more money. Yes an improvement to some product maybe the outcome, but its the outcome of discussing how to make more money.

A business/corporation doesnt exist to appease you. It exists to make the guy at the top money.

NOTE:
I am not trying to defend GW or praise them. I'm just trying to remind you that GW dont hate you, they just lurve money (dont we all)

I dont know every single person or know what the bigwigs (CEO etc) are like but I am just generalising because I see it in every internet forum ever. Take Call of duty for example. A new COD every year. You think they release a new cod every year to make gamers happy? or to make a bunch of money?

They are a stagnant (at best) or shrinking (at worst), company in a growing market. Their business decisions are wrong and are making them loose customers and loose money as a result. To the vast majority of companies in the world, customer retention and customer satisfaction is a very big deal, the simple fact that GW doesn't care about these in a business, that requires a community to properly function in the first place, is beyond asinine!

A couple of years ago I had the GW sales rep for Europe (I forgot what his official title was), tell me to my face that the "veterans" opinions didn't matter because they had already bought the product and that our store owner should forget about them and just focus on drawing in new kids to sell starters to... If any of the sales rep in my company ever even thought anything like that, he would be fired on the spot but instead this is official GW policy... Mind boggling.

And this is a miniature wargaming forum, so if you wan't to trow analogies around, use ones form miniature wargaming companies. The business model for computer games is completely different than the one from a miniature games company and the two really can't be compared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klerych wrote:
but the prices PP gave us are fairly inadequate to the market and their policy towards FLGSes is off-putting for the owners.

What policy? PP doesn't deal with FLGS's directly, they only work through regional distributors AFAIK, and those are companies that are completely independent from PP .

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Take Call of duty for example. A new COD every year. You think they release a new cod every year to make gamers happy? or to make a bunch of money?

And they're rightly criticized and even boycotted for that and other anti-customer attitudes. CoD: Ghosts has sold (comparatively) poorly too. It's funny how anti-customer practices come back to bite you on the ass.

PhantomViper wrote:


They are a stagnant (at best) or shrinking (at worst), company in a growing market. Their business decisions are wrong and are making them loose customers and loose money as a result. To the vast majority of companies in the world, customer retention and customer satisfaction is a very big deal, the simple fact that GW doesn't care about these in a business, that requires a community to properly function in the first place, is beyond asinine!

A couple of years ago I had the GW sales rep for Europe (I forgot what his official title was), tell me to my face that the "veterans" opinions didn't matter because they had already bought the product and that our store owner should forget about them and just focus on drawing in new kids to sell starters to... If any of the sales rep in my company ever even thought anything like that, he would be fired on the spot but instead this is official GW policy... Mind boggling.

After actually bothering to look (albeit breifly) at GW end of year reports (which i should have done before blindly generalising and making assumptions that the guys at the top of gw were intelligent beings) and seing that they managed to near enough half their revenues in the space of a year or makes me question how many of the executives are tainted by warp. Im tempted to just remove my previous post as I feel dirty for typing it

PhantomViper wrote:

And this is a miniature wargaming forum, so if you wan't to trow analogies around, use ones form miniature wargaming companies. The business model for computer games is completely different than the one from a miniature games company and the two really can't be compared.

Counter argument [sincere]: I only throw the COD analogy out to show that big companies dont necessarily do things for solely for their customers but to make money. Do miniature producers update their sculpts or add new ones primarily to make players happy? or to force (force probably isnt the correct word) players to update their armies by spending mullah on new figures? [/sincere]

Another example using rule changes concerning SM attack bikes. At some point they got buffed. Was this to make them more balanced or to shift more units? Maybe I'm wrong and the rule writers thought "you know who needs a break? White scars players"

PhantomViper wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
but the prices PP gave us are fairly inadequate to the market and their policy towards FLGSes is off-putting for the owners.

What policy? PP doesn't deal with FLGS's directly, they only work through regional distributors AFAIK, and those are companies that are completely independent from PP .

Exactly. Without any support from PP towards our market to be able to sell WarmaHorde you need to order the -whole range-, including stuff that never sells even on the distributor's online store. It would be different if they were up to negotiations on terms like being able to order just the starter sets and faction tokens just to see how many players would be interested, but without any supportive policy and campaign the game will forevermore remain some weird foreign tabletop wargame played only in some exclusive freemason-like circle just like Spartan Games' products and even Infinity that's so minor here it's barely worth mentioning. For a game to get popular here the company needs to support it. And Poland is a big potential market - despite lower salaries people love blowing their paychecks on MtG booster packs and GW plastic toy soldiers on a regular basis. Wonder if sending PP an e-mail would make them consider giving it some thought.

I'm leery to believe that they intentionally write certain rules to be overpowered to move stock. If that were the case, I'm wondering why the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend was so awful on release. Then again, the Hellturkey was awesome.

It just feels too random and haphazard to give credit to GW for thinking about making something even just a little better than average to boost sales of a particular model.

 Peregrine wrote:
I think the biggest reason is that GW is no longer able to innovate or even really refine their existing products.

They innovate all the time. Haven't you seen the new Ork Codex? They took the "Unit Entry/Fluff" section and the "Army List" section of any normal Codex, smashed 'em together to save space, and then got rid of the nice original artwork and replaced it with big full-colour photos, turning half the book into a miniatures catalogue.

It may sound like an odd thing to say, but the Ork Codex has no soul, but it's the first GW book to have no soul, so that's new for them. Innovation!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The last new game idea GW made was Dread Fleet, which was apparently a dismal failure. Perhaps that episode killed GW's appetite for risk.

Dread Fleet isn't an example of them taking a risk. Dread Fleet was an example of them not listening to what their player-base wants. Remember the whole "They'll buy what we make" mantra? That describes Dread Fleet completely. If GW went out there and engaged with its audience, rather than treating it as a necessary evil, things like Dread Fleet wouldn't happen.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm leery to believe that they intentionally write certain rules to be overpowered to move stock. If that were the case, I'm wondering why the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend was so awful on release. Then again, the Hellturkey was awesome.

It just feels too random and haphazard to give credit to GW for thinking about making something even just a little better than average to boost sales of a particular model.

I agree. They don't understand the game they're writing, and they think that the way they play is the way everyone plays it, and because they knew what they meant when they wrote any particular rule that the rest of us will just get it. And then there's the "Forging a Narrative" aspect, which is simply a way of abdicating responsibility. You know where narratives are really important? Role playing games. You think that means we slack off when writing the rules because they're not all that important and people can 'forge a narrative' with any old rules? Hell no!

I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

 Klerych wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't understand why GW stopped making any other games. They have a load of production facilities and retail shops. It ought to be a snap.

It's such a shame GW stopped making other games, I'd have less complaints about GW and 40k if they still made Epic, BFG, mordheim, etc.

Well, they were extremely unpopular the longer they existed and overall died over time. I feel like I was one of the only like.. 3 people in my country that played BFG. When 40k started growing in size, Epic became somewhat obsolete as the miniatures couldn't get much prettier at that scale. Mordheim and Necromunda.. both should be brought back as Kill Team-like expansions for 40k, but they'll always be a tiny niche. I'm not saying that they should be discontinued, but they didn't really stand a chance back then and GW decided to focus on it's flagship titles. Funnily enough nowadays Dystopian Wars seem to be growing at pretty rapid rate while being pretty much about the same type of massive conflict as Epic. Firestorm Armada seems to be doing pretty fine(although not really -that- popular either) too, dealing in big starship battles.

My theory is that GW couldn't compete with full-fledged games from other companies with their little side-projects and had to smother them to focus on the only titles that are pretty unique to them and strong enough to survive. Especially when they devote all their resources to them, rather than spreading the team over several tiny games.

GW hardly did a good job promoting the games. When they were cut, yeah, they were unpopular, because they were tucked away in the "specialist games" section.

When you don't support a game it tends to not be all that popular.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479

Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

I'm also waiting on Bad Wolf's pyrovore tactical.....*crickets crickets *

 Klerych wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
but the prices PP gave us are fairly inadequate to the market and their policy towards FLGSes is off-putting for the owners.

What policy? PP doesn't deal with FLGS's directly, they only work through regional distributors AFAIK, and those are companies that are completely independent from PP .

Exactly. Without any support from PP towards our market to be able to sell WarmaHorde you need to order the -whole range-, including stuff that never sells even on the distributor's online store. It would be different if they were up to negotiations on terms like being able to order just the starter sets and faction tokens just to see how many players would be interested, but without any supportive policy and campaign the game will forevermore remain some weird foreign tabletop wargame played only in some exclusive freemason-like circle just like Spartan Games' products and even Infinity that's so minor here it's barely worth mentioning. For a game to get popular here the company needs to support it. And Poland is a big potential market - despite lower salaries people love blowing their paychecks on MtG booster packs and GW plastic toy soldiers on a regular basis. Wonder if sending PP an e-mail would make them consider giving it some thought.

Really, becouse over here I go into the store tell the guy what I want to order and he calls the distributors and get just what I and what anyone else ordered, delived the next week. In fact only GW who the store has a trade contract with makes them buy stuff he doesn't want. Maybe your stores distributor is the issue.

Note: Even most of the other games promo stuff comes from the distributor.

Noir wrote:
Really, becouse over here I go into the store tell the guy what I want to order and he calls the distributors and get just what I and what anyone else ordered, delived the next week. In fact only GW who the store has a trade contract with makes them buy stuff he doesn't want. Maybe your stores distributor is the issue.

Note: Even most of the other games promo stuff comes from the distributor.

This.. I'm not sure how it works in Poland but here, the store just phones the distributor and gets things ordered, no requirements on what to stock, most stores here have a very small selection of WM/H stuff (a couple of Battlegroup boxes, maybe the rules, maybe a handful of alternate casters) and most things you put in an order.

Well, that's what the guy who runs my FLGS said. Might be the distributor's strange policy(maybe they want to have monopoly due to them having their own online store?) or something. But yeah, that's the case here. :(

 Klerych wrote:
Well, that's what the guy who runs my FLGS said. Might be the distributor's strange policy(maybe they want to have monopoly due to them having their own online store?) or something. But yeah, that's the case here. :(

There's another Polish poster, Makumba (at least according to the flag) who has a similar problem with WM/H stuff, he goes on about how his store is so limited in what it can get in, and how, without a credit card to order online, he's pretty much screwed. Maybe distributors over there are just dicks? Or he just lives in the same area as you.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I mean, WM/H doesn't have nonsense like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Da-Goff-Guard?_requestid=1169479

Who on earth is going to spend $2600 for that crap? And the better question is why? Just who the hell are they actually marketing to with something like that?

There was a theory that GW want to up the price and reduce the customer base until they are left with one or several eccentric millionaires collecting their models. That doesn't seem so crazy when you see things like that, it's certainly something their current target audience's parent's wont buy for them on a whim.

 motyak wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Well, that's what the guy who runs my FLGS said. Might be the distributor's strange policy(maybe they want to have monopoly due to them having their own online store?) or something. But yeah, that's the case here. :(

There's another Polish poster, Makumba (at least according to the flag) who has a similar problem with WM/H stuff, he goes on about how his store is so limited in what it can get in, and how, without a credit card to order online, he's pretty much screwed. Maybe distributors over there are just dicks? Or he just lives in the same area as you.

I think he's from another city, but that'd make sense after what they said at my FLGS. Which is a real shame because despite the prices not being terrible on the distributor's page, I'd rather be able to pick them up and/or encourage some people to buy them at my FLGS where I could play a demo game with them. I really like Warmachine and would like to see more people give it a shout, but it's never going to be popular if it can't be bought at the FLGS. Sometimes people look at my minis and say that they're cool, but when I'm telling them more about it, they seem to be off-put by the fact that the only way to obtain them is on distributor's site. Having even a small stand with just the battlegroups and those two two-faction starter sets would really help as people could grab them, look at them and see if they like it. Otherwise it's just GW stuff and MtG/Yu-Gi-Oh boosters that make the profits.

 Klerych wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 Klerych wrote:
Well, that's what the guy who runs my FLGS said. Might be the distributor's strange policy(maybe they want to have monopoly due to them having their own online store?) or something. But yeah, that's the case here. :(

There's another Polish poster, Makumba (at least according to the flag) who has a similar problem with WM/H stuff, he goes on about how his store is so limited in what it can get in, and how, without a credit card to order online, he's pretty much screwed. Maybe distributors over there are just dicks? Or he just lives in the same area as you.

I think he's from another city, but that'd make sense after what they said at my FLGS. Which is a real shame because despite the prices not being terrible on the distributor's page, I'd rather be able to pick them up and/or encourage some people to buy them at my FLGS where I could play a demo game with them. I really like Warmachine and would like to see more people give it a shout, but it's never going to be popular if it can't be bought at the FLGS. Sometimes people look at my minis and say that they're cool, but when I'm telling them more about it, they seem to be off-put by the fact that the only way to obtain them is on distributor's site. Having even a small stand with just the battlegroups and those two two-faction starter sets would really help as people could grab them, look at them and see if they like it. Otherwise it's just GW stuff and MtG/Yu-Gi-Oh boosters that make the profits.

Might be an issue in Poland. My local FLGS in Canada only keeps the best sellers but can order just about anything and it will be delivered in 5 business days.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I'm still waiting on the ultra expensive WM vs super cheap 40K army lists from Lobomalo.

I think we've established he's either a troll or just a deluded fanboy, because such a thing doesn't exist outside of some really crazy situations. WM/H isn't *that* much cheaper than 40k when all is said and done (especially when you consider needing multiple lists), but it feels like you get more bang for your buck.

I'd recommend bookmarking this thread, because I have a feeling that the exact same unsupported arguments will be dragged out again in a few months.