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2014/09/17 07:19:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Project Zomboid is one of the best zombie horror games ever made. Only the tutorial has anything other than a blank slate of a character.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:20:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:21:46
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 Melissia wrote:Project Zomboid is one of the best zombie horror games ever made. Only the tutorial has anything other than a blank slate of a character.
Yet again debatable. I disagree.
I hate the zombie genre as a whole as it is just a reuse over and over again. As the horror genre is sort of gone down hill, there are some good games out there but for every walking dead game we have we have 12 call of duty zombie game rip offs.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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0015/09/15 20:25:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I know your opinion. Clearly, I believe it to be wrong. So when you sit down to write a story, do you prefer to let other people go and tell you how to do it, to dictate how the characters act, no matter how much you wish they might act in a different way? Or do you prefer to write it from your own imagination or creativity?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:25:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:30:39
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:I know your opinion. Clearly, I believe it to be wrong.
So when you sit down to write a story, do you prefer to let other people go and tell you how to do it, to dictate how the characters act, no matter how much you wish they might act in a different way? Or do you prefer to write it from your own imagination or creativity?
I think long and hard what I want to write about. And build a story with a central theme.
Sometimes I let others dictate.
Sometimes I free write.
It is the flexibility that I like.
I want an equal representation of everything, but over a multidude of other things. I want there to be equal amounts of access to all types of things, either they have more female characters as central to the story, or a blank slate character.
I do not think all games should follow and be dictated because people like blank slates. I do not want to see that. I want to see that equal representations of all ways that a story can be told.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 20:33:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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So why shouldn't the players for your game want flexibility? The player is the one moving the story forward, not you the writer. You're just there to give the player a good interactive experience.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:33:49
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:38:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Melissia wrote:Project Zomboid is one of the best zombie horror games ever made. Only the tutorial has anything other than a blank slate of a character.
Downloading the demo, I will test it out!
 Asherian Command wrote:I do not think all games should follow and be dictated because people like blank slates. I do not want to see that. I want to see that equal representations of all ways that a story can be told.
To sum it up, you want to have both blank slates games where the main character's gender is customizable, and fixed character games where about half the games feature a female character and the other half a male character, is that right? Because I am pretty sure we could all agree on that as being a pretty damn fine situation.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/15 20:38:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:So why shouldn't the players for your game want flexibility? The player is the one moving the story forward, not you the writer. You're just there to give the player a good interactive experience.
Because in the end the player does not write the story. The designer and the writer make the story. The gamer is a variable, I can replace that variable with any number I want and it will still end up with the same result. In programming variables are merely plug in here and plug in here. No numbers or mathematics are changed in this way. You can plug in anything and it won't change the story. You are the player you are not in control of your destiny in this game. All paths are predetermined. I as the story writer planned for all the paths you pick. It is something that alot of players confuse. This illusion of choice happens alot in games. I have said this many times. We should not have a market dominated by blank slate characters. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Melissia wrote:Project Zomboid is one of the best zombie horror games ever made. Only the tutorial has anything other than a blank slate of a character.
Downloading the demo, I will test it out! Asherian Command wrote:I do not think all games should follow and be dictated because people like blank slates. I do not want to see that. I want to see that equal representations of all ways that a story can be told.
To sum it up, you want to have both blank slates games where the main character's gender is customizable, and fixed character games where about half the games feature a female character and the other half a male character, is that right? Because I am pretty sure we could all agree on that as being a pretty damn fine situation.
Correct! That is exactly what I want in games.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:43:07
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 20:43:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Kid_Kyoto
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Or, each decision you make is so compartmentalized and modular that the game doesn't care if you made the previous ones or not.
See also: TES
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2014/09/15 20:48:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 daedalus wrote:
Or, each decision you make is so compartmentalized and modular that the game doesn't care if you made the previous ones or not.
See also: TES
Correct.
Or Spec Ops: The Line as a better example. 
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 20:49:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Through the player's actions, the player writes the story. Each player's story is different from the next, each player's experience is different from the next because each player makes different decisions, or goes about fulfilling those decisions in a different way. That is what sets games apart from other media. And what makes games, in my opinion, better.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:51:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:50:27
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Kid_Kyoto
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Actually, what about stuff like Terraria and Minecraft? You write your own story in those, basically.
Ahh. A ninja!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:51:18
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2014/09/15 20:53:26
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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daedalus wrote:Actually, what about stuff like Terraria and Minecraft? You write your own story in those, basically. Ahh. A ninja!
Or The Elder Scrolls, where you can make your own damn story however you please. Hell, if you want, in TES2: Daggerfall, you can buy a house, settle down, and become a pacificistic trader for a living if you want. And you can do that in Skyrim now, too. Same goes for the X universe-- the player makes their own story in X3: Albion Prelude. You can be a warlord conquering the universe, a small time smuggler running from the law, an explorer, a patriot, or a galactic trade conglomerate with a finger on the pulse of the galaxy's economy... or a thousand other things.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 20:54:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:54:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:Through the player's actions, the player writes the story. Each player's story is different from the next, each player's experience is different from the next because each player makes different decisions, or goes about fulfilling those decisions in a different way.
That is what sets games apart from other media. And what makes games, in my opinion, better.
I do not usually consider them to be apart of the story bits. Where characters make their own stories, mostly due to giving the player a lot of freedom, But personally I like those games a lot hell. Minecraft is one.
I just do not think that we should force all games to be like that.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 20:55:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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And yet you have gone on record saying you hate them.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 20:57:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Read the rest of my statement.
Hell I will rewrite it. "But I do not think they should be mandatory."
I do not like blank slate characters.
But I like the games themselves.
See just because one small thing annoys me does not mean I hate the entire experience.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 20:59:10
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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You can't have it both ways really. Without a blank slate character, these games simply wouldn't exist.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 21:13:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:You can't have it both ways really. Without a blank slate character, these games simply wouldn't exist.
Not true. You can enjoy the game for certain things but it doesn't mean you have to enjoy the entire game.
I may have disliked certain mechanics in ME1 but that does not mean the game is worse because of that.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 21:23:01
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Basecoated Black
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Speaking of Mass Effect, would it be an example of a game where the writers inject a portion of their intent into the Shepard character while still giving the player a degree of freedom to create their own experience?
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Actions define a person. |
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2014/09/15 21:26:28
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Asherian Command wrote: Melissia wrote:You can't have it both ways really. Without a blank slate character, these games simply wouldn't exist.
Not true. You can enjoy the game for certain things but it doesn't mean you have to enjoy the entire game.
If Mojang tried to force the player to play "Steve's Story" in Minecraft, it would necessitate removing the freeform "decide your own story" gameplay of Minecraft for something else.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 21:26:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 21:26:55
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 Dshrike wrote:Speaking of Mass Effect, would it be an example of a game where the writers inject a portion of their intent into the Shepard character while still giving the player a degree of freedom to create their own experience?
Yes I call it a balanced Blank Slate Round Character - Balanced meaning it has both input from the developer and the player.
It is an example of that and think its a great model. But I don't think that is the best part of the series. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote: Asherian Command wrote: Melissia wrote:You can't have it both ways really. Without a blank slate character, these games simply wouldn't exist.
Not true. You can enjoy the game for certain things but it doesn't mean you have to enjoy the entire game.
If Mojang tried to force the player to play "Steve's Story" in Minecraft, it would necessitate removing the freeform "decide your own story" gameplay of Minecraft for something else.
Am I suggesting that?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 21:27:18
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 21:34:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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By saying you always hate blank slate characters, you're suggesting that the game could be made better without them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 21:34:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 21:38:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:By saying you always hate blank slate characters, you're suggesting that the game could be made better without them.
Not at all. I just personally do not agree with it. But I don't think it makes the game better or worse. Its just an approach to a game. As long as a character exists I am fine with it. I just do not agree with giving that much power to a player.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 21:39:31
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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So do you hate them, or do you not?
If you hate an aspect of a game, clearly you believe it would be better if it was changed.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 21:45:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:So do you hate them, or do you not?
If you hate an aspect of a game, clearly you believe it would be better if it was changed.
Nope. Because I can't see it being changed.
I do hate them, I think they are cliched and easy go to button for games in general. I think its lazy to do it. (Even though its harder to do)
But in story writing, writing a blank slate is easy, but making a believable round character is harder.
In terms of time both are equal.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 21:59:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I find that deeply sad for some reason.
Ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent of all written characters are cliched regardless.
Call of Duty? Cliched characters. Heavy Rain? Cliched characters. Quake? Cliched characters . Mass Effect? Cliched characters. Lord of the Rings? Cliched characters, even at the time they were written. Games Workshop? A legion of characters all shrouded in a whirlwind of cliches.
As the old saying goes, "there's nothing new under the sun"-- everything is derivative to some extent. What matters is execution, and more often than not, I find games with blank slate and character customization allow me to execute a story I find more enjoyable than anything produced by most authors, any director in hollywood, or just about anyone in the videogame industry.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 22:01:20
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Quake has characters? I thought it merely had enemies to paint the wall with.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/15 22:02:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:I find that deeply sad for some reason.
Ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent of all written characters are cliched regardless.
Call of Duty? Cliched characters. Heavy Rain? Cliched characters. Quake? Cliched characters . Mass Effect? Cliched characters. Lord of the Rings? Cliched characters, even at the time they were written. Games Workshop? A legion of characters all shrouded in a whirlwind of cliches.
As the old saying goes, "there's nothing new under the sun"-- everything is derivative to some extent. What matters is execution, and more often than not, I find games with blank slate and character customization allow me to execute a story I find more enjoyable than anything produced by most authors, any director in hollywood, or just about anyone in the videogame industry.
I don't think you understand my point and reasoning
I think that it is cliched as a game designer to think .YEah lets make that. We only need that.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 22:06:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Yep. I was mentioning the series as a whole, but Quake 3 is what I had in mind, and it had a ton of really interesting characters. Still cliched though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or maybe I just disagree.
Asherian Command wrote:I think that it is cliched as a game designer to think .YEah lets make that. We only need that.
And I think it's one of the best, if not THE best, game design choices a developer can make.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 22:07:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/15 22:10:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:Yep. I was mentioning the series as a whole, but Quake 3 is what I had in mind, and it had a ton of really interesting characters. Still cliched though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or maybe I just disagree.
Asherian Command wrote:I think that it is cliched as a game designer to think .YEah lets make that. We only need that.
And I think it's one of the best, if not THE best, game design choices a developer can make.
Again debatable, its the default for game developers. They are lazy enough that they don't want to write a story focused character, one who evolves and changes over time.
The default now is badass who stays badass.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/15 22:12:38
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Missionary On A Mission
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Didn't Extra Credits make a point on how blank slate protagonists are one of the major differences in Western RPGs versus JRPGs?
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