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GK are a joke army now. Whether or not they should be a stand alone force is a moot point. I mean marine chapters are stand alone, and in the fluff, they have only 1K troops. 1K is too small for a terrestrial fighting force, much less a galactic one.

GK players pay the same GW costs for their models and codex, etc. They shouldn't be saddled with this crap.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.

Alright, let me tell you something Boomwolf. You have no concept of GK as an army. Who in their fething right mind, thinks spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range? You are absolutely nuts if you think that is a good return.

Also, gonna be a little aggressive on this, I hope you get a codex as good the GK you deserve it.

I got thousand sons as my first codex, aint perfect, but pretty darn good. (mostly is a strong codex, but not the direction I'd like it to go.)
Next is tau, I'm not optimistic about it.


Anyways, GK are not a stand-alone army. they never were, they never intended to have been. the only times they existed as a codex were either when allies were a thing, or when they were the same codex as inqusition and assassins. and even then it was an eyebrow raised that got pushed up by absurd number efficiency rather than actually living to their roles.

Now, as a tool to tactically insert into list a handful of to shore up specific needs as it first your list-they can work.
They also are not a source of "spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range?". if that's all you see in them, you lack vision.
They got some CC power with force weapons all around, and rerolling all CC wounds on deamons means they can put the hurt on daemons, they can put the hurt on daemon engines, and all daemon-marine units. while not being slobs against other units.
They can DS anything, and that's something most armies either pay premium points or CPs for.
And yes, they got the daemon-killing smite. who is the outright bane of high quality daemon units, who are mostly close-range themselves and I can assure you the dominant chaos soup was running quite a bit.

So yea, they ARE a decent counter-pick allied force when you know chaos is dominant, if you pick the right units in their codex to compliment the rest of your army rather than going hogwash and trying to milk raw numbers. they are non-viable as a stand alone force, but they got uses in small numbers.

All that being said-the FIRST thing I said about them, is that they are on the weak side. so, its almost like you are going aggressive on me without bothering to truly read what I said.

No it's more like you keep justifying their horrible codex with the line... "but they're a specialized army", BS.

So, Page 40. Just popping in again to ask if there has been anything of substance revealed yet.

GK suffer from the same issue as DW. They are more expensive then normal marines but die just as easily. The increase in offensive output does not compensate for that.

Seriously, are you reading what I am writing?

They are a bad codex, who is currently in a more favorable position than they should be because they excel at this specific meta and are CURRENTLY useful.

People refuse to see it though, because they love looking at things in a vaccum rather than in real life scenarios.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
So, Page 40. Just popping in again to ask if there has been anything of substance revealed yet.

No, there was one rumor and someone ran with it. The thread has basically derailed into arguments about other codex's power levels and has further devolved due to the recent GW GT which people are taking as a serious look at competitive meta when it used book missions.

This thread's got every kind of crazy you can imagine.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
So, Page 40. Just popping in again to ask if there has been anything of substance revealed yet.

No, there was one rumor and someone ran with it. The thread has basically derailed into arguments about other codex's power levels and has further devolved due to the recent GW GT which people are taking as a serious look at competitive meta when it used book missions.

This thread's got every kind of crazy you can imagine.

By that same vein, anytime an ITC event gets played "people are taking it as a serious look at competitive meta" when you're basically houseruling everything.

Because that's what ITC events are. They effectively have their own rulesets in play.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Seriously, are you reading what I am writing?

They are a bad codex, who is currently in a more favorable position than they should be because they excel at this specific meta and are CURRENTLY useful.

People refuse to see it though, because they love looking at things in a vaccum rather than in real life scenarios.

Do you not get that a Grey Knight player who DOES understand their value is telling you that NO, GK are not useful against daemons for the simple reason that they are too expensive. If GK were able to AIM their smite and it was 18 inch range I would say they might have some niche use. But they don't, if you actually want to take a useful GK unit that is entirely self reliant you will have to throw down at least 210 points for a GMNDK which will be 3 mortal wound smite. Which means that you aren't actually looking for the smite, but the goddamn dreadknight chassis.

Or please tell every goddamn Imperial soup player they're wrong, that they fail to see the inherent usefulness of GK in a meta where they can expect at least one Daemon matchup.

 Quickjager wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Seriously, are you reading what I am writing?

They are a bad codex, who is currently in a more favorable position than they should be because they excel at this specific meta and are CURRENTLY useful.

People refuse to see it though, because they love looking at things in a vaccum rather than in real life scenarios.

Do you not get that a Grey Knight player who DOES understand their value is telling you that NO, GK are not useful against daemons for the simple reason that they are too expensive. If GK were able to AIM their smite and it was 18 inch range I would say they might have some niche use. But they don't, if you actually want to take a useful GK unit that is entirely self reliant you will have to throw down at least 210 points for a GMNDK which will be 3 mortal wound smite. Which means that you aren't actually looking for the smite, but the goddamn dreadknight chassis.

Or please tell every goddamn Imperial soup player they're wrong, that they fail to see the inherent usefulness of GK in a meta where they can expect at least one Daemon matchup.

I genuinely think that they need to re-do a lot of the content of the Grey Knight codex. They can't drop the points value significantly and still retain the feeling of being a small, elite force. They need to change how their psychic works so they can have some offensive power from their smites, and they need better resilience so they don't get tabled so easily.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.

Alright, let me tell you something Boomwolf. You have no concept of GK as an army. Who in their fething right mind, thinks spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range? You are absolutely nuts if you think that is a good return.

Also, gonna be a little aggressive on this, I hope you get a codex as good the GK you deserve it.

I got thousand sons as my first codex, aint perfect, but pretty darn good. (mostly is a strong codex, but not the direction I'd like it to go.)
Next is tau, I'm not optimistic about it.


Anyways, GK are not a stand-alone army. they never were, they never intended to have been. the only times they existed as a codex were either when allies were a thing, or when they were the same codex as inqusition and assassins. and even then it was an eyebrow raised that got pushed up by absurd number efficiency rather than actually living to their roles.

Now, as a tool to tactically insert into list a handful of to shore up specific needs as it first your list-they can work.
They also are not a source of "spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range?". if that's all you see in them, you lack vision.
They got some CC power with force weapons all around, and rerolling all CC wounds on deamons means they can put the hurt on daemons, they can put the hurt on daemon engines, and all daemon-marine units. while not being slobs against other units.
They can DS anything, and that's something most armies either pay premium points or CPs for.
And yes, they got the daemon-killing smite. who is the outright bane of high quality daemon units, who are mostly close-range themselves and I can assure you the dominant chaos soup was running quite a bit.

So yea, they ARE a decent counter-pick allied force when you know chaos is dominant, if you pick the right units in their codex to compliment the rest of your army rather than going hogwash and trying to milk raw numbers. they are non-viable as a stand alone force, but they got uses in small numbers.

All that being said-the FIRST thing I said about them, is that they are on the weak side. so, its almost like you are going aggressive on me without bothering to truly read what I said.

"Never meant to be a stand alone codex"
Yeah guess we can forget about that Daemon Hunters codex and the 5th edition codex huh?

Also they suck at fighting Daemons anyway. You get minimal benefits and for a couple of CP a Daemon player brings a unit back for free.

Darsath wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Seriously, are you reading what I am writing?

They are a bad codex, who is currently in a more favorable position than they should be because they excel at this specific meta and are CURRENTLY useful.

People refuse to see it though, because they love looking at things in a vaccum rather than in real life scenarios.

Do you not get that a Grey Knight player who DOES understand their value is telling you that NO, GK are not useful against daemons for the simple reason that they are too expensive. If GK were able to AIM their smite and it was 18 inch range I would say they might have some niche use. But they don't, if you actually want to take a useful GK unit that is entirely self reliant you will have to throw down at least 210 points for a GMNDK which will be 3 mortal wound smite. Which means that you aren't actually looking for the smite, but the goddamn dreadknight chassis.

Or please tell every goddamn Imperial soup player they're wrong, that they fail to see the inherent usefulness of GK in a meta where they can expect at least one Daemon matchup.

I genuinely think that they need to re-do a lot of the content of the Grey Knight codex. They can't drop the points value significantly and still retain the feeling of being a small, elite force. They need to change how their psychic works so they can have some offensive power from their smites, and they need better resilience so they don't get tabled so easily.

And that is perfectly understandable, but the one thing I hate being mentioned is they are specialized. No they are not, that assumes they are actually effective at SOMETHING.

 daedalus wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

Totally. And Orks are horrible too. Like, so horrible that they'd simply never place even in the top 20 at a tournament. Let alone top 10. In fact, some people (in this thread even) have said they were worse than Tau before.

Madness.

Orks can place (yes - I see the sarcasm). The bad part is they have very one dimensional lists to do so.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How many of your total units don't get Regiment bonuses again?

Ratlings, Ogryn of all flavors, 2/3 of the old "Regimental Advisors"(Officer of the Fleet, Astropath), Valkyries, Commissars, anything Tempestus taken outside of a purely Tempestus Detachment, Tech-Priest Enginseers and their Servitors(although they can take <Forge World> as a keyword but technically don't get the benefits they would from being taken in an AdMech detachment), Ministorum Priests and Crusaders, and all the Psyker options.

So...20 units out of the entire book don't get Regimental bonuses, with 4 of them(Scions, Scion Command Squads, Tempestor Primes, Taurox Primes) only getting them in a pure Tempestus Detachment(which precludes you from taking a large swathe of the book since anything with <Regiment> cannot choose Militarum Tempestus.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Who cares that your Primaris Psyker doesn't benefit from Regiment traits.
You get a smite for 46 points. And as a bonus he can give a unit and invul save or -1 to hit.

Not in the same turn he can't. He can only cast a single power a turn, but can know up to 3.

Any army would LOVE to be able to get that for so little points.
Heck give it T1 1W. I dont care.

Your completely oblivious to how good is it to have cheap units.

And you're completely oblivious to the fact that as nice as these "cheap units" are, they come with significant restrictions.

That's pretty fascinating. Now let's take a look at Marines.
There is the Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior, Servitors, Legion Of The Damned, Rhino, Razorback, Land Speeders Storm, Drop Pod, Repulsor, Stormhawk and Talon and Raven, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannon, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter and Stalker, the three Land Raider variants...
That's 22. Wanna go over Forge World stuff while we are at it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's pretty fascinating. Now let's take a look at Marines.
There is the Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior, Servitors, Legion Of The Damned, Rhino, Razorback, Land Speeders Storm, Drop Pod, Repulsor, Stormhawk and Talon and Raven, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannon, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter and Stalker, the three Land Raider variants...
That's 22. Wanna go over Forge World stuff while we are at it?

And you'll notice that in other threads, I've advocated for Marines to have Chapter Tactics apply to their Vehicles or to have specialized Vehicle traits added to them. I think the only one I'd leave out, personally, would be the Drop Pod though.

And if you'd like to go over Forge World stuff while we are at it, there's a fair chunk of stuff there that doesn't have the <Regiment> tag or can't have <Regiment> stuff apply to them. Notably the whole of the Death Korps of Krieg and its armory, the Elysians and their armory, the entirety of the Imperial Navy stuff...

 daedalus wrote:
Tau really aren't bad. The primary complaint about them is that they only really have one viable build (fire warrior spam)

They basically have three:
Suit spam: Which basically comes down to Commander+Y'vahra spam (basically the only two extremely strong Tau units there are right now), with the odd Crisis flamer teams and Stealth Suits for beacon duty thrown in

Drone spam: Gazillion gun drones supported by drone controllers, usually a hybrid build with Commander/Y'vahra spam

Fire Warrior spam: high number of fire warriors buffed by Cadre Fireblades and pulse accelerator drones as the core. Makes for solid lists as Fire warriors are a cheap, solid unit that become very good with those cheap synergies, but gets completely shut down as soon as you play against Alaitoc, AL or Raven guard (good luck killing any -1 to hit marine squad in cover when hiting on 5+ and getting murdered in close combat if you get too close).

When it comes to top tournaments though there is only the Commander+Y'vahra+ some drones spam though. Fire Warrior spam is what I am rolling, very much enjoy to play and have good success even in smaller, more local tourneys (30+ fire warriors minimum + 2-3 units of pathfinders and Longstrike + 1-2 Hammerheads for anti-vehicle duty, with a single Commander, a Breacher Devilfish and Vespids thrown in if I can afford it), but against any -1 to hit army I have a really bad time and it basically comes down to hugging objectives, as the only thing I can still reliably kill is vehicles and monsters.

But yeah, Tau are at the bottom of the the heap together with crons (pure DEldar as well, but they at least get the option to ally in OP/strong Craftworld and Aeldari units) and basically the 8th Edition equivalent to 7th edition tyranid lists (monobuild Flygrant spam as the only really competitive option). The Codex can't come soon enough.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's pretty fascinating. Now let's take a look at Marines.
There is the Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior, Servitors, Legion Of The Damned, Rhino, Razorback, Land Speeders Storm, Drop Pod, Repulsor, Stormhawk and Talon and Raven, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannon, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter and Stalker, the three Land Raider variants...
That's 22. Wanna go over Forge World stuff while we are at it?

And you'll notice that in other threads, I've advocated for Marines to have Chapter Tactics apply to their Vehicles or to have specialized Vehicle traits added to them. I think the only one I'd leave out, personally, would be the Drop Pod though.

And if you'd like to go over Forge World stuff while we are at it, there's a fair chunk of stuff there that doesn't have the <Regiment> tag or can't have <Regiment> stuff apply to them. Notably the whole of the Death Korps of Krieg and its armory, the Elysians and their armory, the entirety of the Imperial Navy stuff...

And for Marines, outside the Dread variants, it's nothing. So the Command Rhino, the Relic Predator, Javelin Speeder, the three Sicaran variants (think there is a 4th one now though), Whirlwind Scorpius, the Multi-Melta Razorback (though counting it as an extra unit might be disingenuous), the Fire Raptor and Ram, the Storm Eagle and Interceptor, the Tempest, Taratula Turrets, Hyperios, Rapiers, Laser Vindicator, and then there's 3 or 4 Land Raiders.

So if you really wanna complain about certain units are actually balanced because they might not have access to Regiment bonuses, know we don't care as we have pretty damn limited access to Chapter bonuses. But hey, Roboute makes up for that right?

Heck even Roboute isn't going to help marines with some of the nasty Thousand sons powers, as they can realy punnish castles. Which is mostly what Roboute is used for. Why GW chose to right him the way they did I don't understand.

"Never meant to be a stand alone codex"
Yeah guess we can forget about that Daemon Hunters codex and the 5th edition codex huh?

Daemon hunters is a really bad example, since it was mostly inquisition with two GK units and an HQ, and they were even more specialized in fighting Daemons back then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's pretty fascinating. Now let's take a look at Marines.
There is the Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior, Servitors, Legion Of The Damned, Rhino, Razorback, Land Speeders Storm, Drop Pod, Repulsor, Stormhawk and Talon and Raven, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannon, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter and Stalker, the three Land Raider variants...
That's 22. Wanna go over Forge World stuff while we are at it?

And you'll notice that in other threads, I've advocated for Marines to have Chapter Tactics apply to their Vehicles or to have specialized Vehicle traits added to them. I think the only one I'd leave out, personally, would be the Drop Pod though.

And if you'd like to go over Forge World stuff while we are at it, there's a fair chunk of stuff there that doesn't have the <Regiment> tag or can't have <Regiment> stuff apply to them. Notably the whole of the Death Korps of Krieg and its armory, the Elysians and their armory, the entirety of the Imperial Navy stuff...

And for Marines, outside the Dread variants, it's nothing. So the Command Rhino, the Relic Predator, Javelin Speeder, the three Sicaran variants (think there is a 4th one now though), Whirlwind Scorpius, the Multi-Melta Razorback (though counting it as an extra unit might be disingenuous), the Fire Raptor and Ram, the Storm Eagle and Interceptor, the Tempest, Taratula Turrets, Hyperios, Rapiers, Laser Vindicator, and then there's 3 or 4 Land Raiders

So if you really wanna complain about certain units are actually balanced because they might not have access to Regiment bonuses, know we don't care as we have pretty damn limited access to Chapter bonuses.

All of your infantry units have Chapter bonuses. The fact that you don't have infantry units added to you via FW is annoying, as I'd love for Raven Guard to have Mor Deythan added to their roster that way.
All of your Dreadnoughts have Chapter bonuses.
If, say, Primaris didn't get anything but a single generic Primaris trait that required an all Primaris Detachment? You'd have a more viable point.
We all know at this point that Marines(of Loyalist and Traitor varieties) not getting traits for their land vehicles was a Bad Thing. You'd likely be hard-pressed to find anyone who would argue that Marines shouldn't have their Chapter/Legion traits expanded to include more things or to have vehicle specific ones as mentioned before.

And I'd honestly argue that Legion of the Damned shouldn't be counted. As far as I'm aware, they are an Index Only thing right now--same as Rough Riders and a few assorted other gubbins for Guard.

But hey, Roboute makes up for that right?

Huh. Pretty sure I didn't once bring up Roboute or imply he "makes up" for anything...

Pretty sure, in fact, that I've argued in the past that he's a crutch that people have been using to prop up the Marine book or to try to justify not buffing/addressing the book's issues?

Not only does RowBoat suck but they had to tune the rest of the codex on the off chance that you were using him but 90% of the codex can't (RG, WS, IH, Salies, IF, BT, CS + successors).

Change him from a LOW to a HQ. Allow him to take any compliant SM chapter in his detachment and still allow it to count as battle forged (tratis + strats). Only re-roll 1s to hit/wound w/in 12" for all chapters and maybe we'd have something.

I am curious what other changes GW is contemplating for this new patch though. How far are they willing to re-write their rules? We probably need a new thread for that though...

Yup, he gets into a rage over half a sentence, not reading the rest of it.
Typical. practically anyone going "but my GK is a stand alone army!" falls into that.

Guys, GK is a specialist force, it was always intended to be such.
Yea, you CAN play it alone. so can you do with custodians, imperial knights, etc-they are not meant to be though.

They are a more narrow force than TS, and even the TS need a healthy dose of things not actually TS to function.


The game allows for much more than its intended. and sometimes it works, but you can't count on it.

Yea, I CAN run a "pure thousand sons" army. its not getting me anywhere though without daemons, birds or anything of the sort.
Similarly, you can play pure GK, but you won't get anywhere. they are designed with allies and soup in mind. yea, they are not quite as good as they should be even as specialists-but that's essentially what they are, what they always were.

In daemonhunters codex they were mostly inquisition.
5th edition GK codex HAD inquisition for chaff and a whole lot of kinds of chaff and guns "regular" GK don't have, plus assassins for other specialist roles in it, and it was a horribly written codex that was actually far better against marines than against daemons and got wins by pure cheese rather than playing its supposed strengths.
6th, was with allies being a thing.

GK needs some help, but not a total rework that turns it into a TAC army, because that moment it ceases to be GK.
They should stick to the current state of being optimal against daemons, and not against anything not daemons. the only issue is just how much they are optimal against daemons (maybe a tiny bit more) and how much not great against non-daemons (probably slightly less unoptimal.)

Keep everything as it is, and do a bit of point fixes (and I'm talking 5-10% drops on most units ,no more, maybe even a 5% increase for the GM-DK) and they'll be right where they should be.

I play a relatively inefficient faction, BA, and I would never consider bringing a single GK unit. Because I need MORE efficiency, not less. There is no reason for me to touch their units with a 30 foot pole.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Never meant to be a stand alone codex"
Yeah guess we can forget about that Daemon Hunters codex and the 5th edition codex huh?

Daemon hunters is a really bad example, since it was mostly inquisition with two GK units and an HQ, and they were even more specialized in fighting Daemons back then.

HQ + the bodyguard, Grey Knights, Terminators, Purgators, Interceptors or whatever the fast attack one was called, Dreads, and Land Raiders. Surprisingly a lot of the codex is dedicated to the Grey Knights huh? And it was surprisingly half functional too for a low model count army at the time. Storm Troopers with Chimeras were super helpful though I'll give you that (one of my non-pure lists was them with Grey Knight Terminators after all), but not necessary to the point of a crutch.

Not sure what makes it a bad example outside the fact you say it is.

Tau are objectively not at the bottom, stop this nonsense please. It does suck to be shoehorned into 1 specific build, but they *have* a build that is viable, and there are armies out there that simply do not have a viable build, period - Necrons are one of them.

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are objectively not at the bottom, stop this nonsense please. It does suck to be shoehorned into 1 specific build, but they *have* a build that is viable, and there are armies out there that simply do not have a viable build, period - Necrons are one of them.

I wish I could take this argument and transport its equivalencies throughout the forum and time. For example, "Eldar aren't objectively the best codex just because they have 1-2 OP units." It seems like some people have such a hard time with understanding context and intricacies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I play a relatively inefficient faction, BA

Uhh...tournament results beg to differ.

I said inefficient, not ineffective. And the LVO guy cheated to get to the final round. BA are adequate, but really rely on the opponent jelloheading to get anywhere. You can beat most BA lists in the deployment phase. Make them charge crap,and then shoot them all to death.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yup, he gets into a rage over half a sentence, not reading the rest of it.
Typical. practically anyone going "but my GK is a stand alone army!" falls into that.

Guys, GK is a specialist force, it was always intended to be such.
Yea, you CAN play it alone. so can you do with custodians, imperial knights, etc-they are not meant to be though.

They are a more narrow force than TS, and even the TS need a healthy dose of things not actually TS to function.


The game allows for much more than its intended. and sometimes it works, but you can't count on it.

Yea, I CAN run a "pure thousand sons" army. its not getting me anywhere though without daemons, birds or anything of the sort.
Similarly, you can play pure GK, but you won't get anywhere. they are designed with allies and soup in mind. yea, they are not quite as good as they should be even as specialists-but that's essentially what they are, what they always were.

In daemonhunters codex they were mostly inquisition.
5th edition GK codex HAD inquisition for chaff and a whole lot of kinds of chaff and guns "regular" GK don't have, plus assassins for other specialist roles in it, and it was a horribly written codex that was actually far better against marines than against daemons and got wins by pure cheese rather than playing its supposed strengths.
6th, was with allies being a thing.

GK needs some help, but not a total rework that turns it into a TAC army, because that moment it ceases to be GK.
They should stick to the current state of being optimal against daemons, and not against anything not daemons. the only issue is just how much they are optimal against daemons (maybe a tiny bit more) and how much not great against non-daemons (probably slightly less unoptimal.)

Keep everything as it is, and do a bit of point fixes (and I'm talking 5-10% drops on most units ,no more, maybe even a 5% increase for the GM-DK) and they'll be right where they should be.

You know what they say, once a Tau player always a Tau player. But please oh lord, bless me with GW designer insight that you have!

Martel732 wrote:
I said inefficient, not ineffective. And the LVO guy cheated to get to the final round. BA are adequate, but really rely on the opponent jelloheading to get anywhere. You can beat most BA lists in the deployment phase. Make them charge crap,and then shoot them all to death.

You should asterisk your posts with "*mono-BA," because in a competitive environment everyone "Imperium" should be bringing Imperial Guard as at least half their lists.

Blood Angels actually add immense value to IG by being super specialized into deep strike assault.

Boomwolf you have literally no evidence for your claims, outside of 7th edition being the first edition where they made these actual supplement forces. But then those supplement forces were actually put in their proper codex, whereas GK kept existing separately.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's pretty fascinating. Now let's take a look at Marines.
There is the Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior, Servitors, Legion Of The Damned, Rhino, Razorback, Land Speeders Storm, Drop Pod, Repulsor, Stormhawk and Talon and Raven, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannon, Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Hunter and Stalker, the three Land Raider variants...
That's 22. Wanna go over Forge World stuff while we are at it?

And you'll notice that in other threads, I've advocated for Marines to have Chapter Tactics apply to their Vehicles or to have specialized Vehicle traits added to them. I think the only one I'd leave out, personally, would be the Drop Pod though.

And if you'd like to go over Forge World stuff while we are at it, there's a fair chunk of stuff there that doesn't have the <Regiment> tag or can't have <Regiment> stuff apply to them. Notably the whole of the Death Korps of Krieg and its armory, the Elysians and their armory, the entirety of the Imperial Navy stuff...

And for Marines, outside the Dread variants, it's nothing. So the Command Rhino, the Relic Predator, Javelin Speeder, the three Sicaran variants (think there is a 4th one now though), Whirlwind Scorpius, the Multi-Melta Razorback (though counting it as an extra unit might be disingenuous), the Fire Raptor and Ram, the Storm Eagle and Interceptor, the Tempest, Taratula Turrets, Hyperios, Rapiers, Laser Vindicator, and then there's 3 or 4 Land Raiders

So if you really wanna complain about certain units are actually balanced because they might not have access to Regiment bonuses, know we don't care as we have pretty damn limited access to Chapter bonuses.

All of your infantry units have Chapter bonuses. The fact that you don't have infantry units added to you via FW is annoying, as I'd love for Raven Guard to have Mor Deythan added to their roster that way.
All of your Dreadnoughts have Chapter bonuses.
If, say, Primaris didn't get anything but a single generic Primaris trait that required an all Primaris Detachment? You'd have a more viable point.
We all know at this point that Marines(of Loyalist and Traitor varieties) not getting traits for their land vehicles was a Bad Thing. You'd likely be hard-pressed to find anyone who would argue that Marines shouldn't have their Chapter/Legion traits expanded to include more things or to have vehicle specific ones as mentioned before.

And I'd honestly argue that Legion of the Damned shouldn't be counted. As far as I'm aware, they are an Index Only thing right now--same as Rough Riders and a few assorted other gubbins for Guard.

But hey, Roboute makes up for that right?

Huh. Pretty sure I didn't once bring up Roboute or imply he "makes up" for anything...

Pretty sure, in fact, that I've argued in the past that he's a crutch that people have been using to prop up the Marine book or to try to justify not buffing/addressing the book's issues?

Your issue is a random number of units. For Marines it's a whole frickin category that forgot how to ignore cover. And I'm not hardpressed to find people arguing against it, as maybe a quarter of this forum had people arguing against it. I can go find that thread. Insectum7 was the worst offender in that thread though as he plays Marines and doesn't care.

Also you CAN include Index units. I'm annoyed Rough Riders can forget they might be stronger than usual and that a Juggerlord can forget to make an extra attack on the charge. Calvary being excluded is stupid as we ALL know the ever favorited Space Wolves with their silly Thunderwolves will get a bonus of some kind.

And yes you did have a lot of this forum arguing Marine players had Roboute so there was no reason to care.