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koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
And yet lots of people voted Infantry Squads as one of the most powerful units. Commissars were never really for regular squads anyway.
That didn't stop people from claiming that the Commissar "nerf" made them more helpful for SWS/HWS/Infantry Squads...despite the fact that it clearly didn't.
Perhaps the perspective from IG players is potentially biased? At least you'll have a reason to take conscripts now.
I don't want a "reason to take conscripts". I want my damn army left alone until we actually see full codices out for everyone.
I could have fixed the damn unit months ago by simply making it so that they can never be taken in anything less than a Brigade Detachment. I even submitted it as an idea to GW.
Maybe they are "poor" for that cost, but it still makes them a great flexible unit out front of some very effective vehicles.
Not if they require you to take a fething Brigade Detachment they don't.
koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
It is entirely possible that they could change commissars in the FAQ as well, maybe guardsman go up to 5 points and commissars get UN-nerfed,
A bolt gun can still only kill so many models. If you have loads of 4ppm on the table then its gak. Few Armies can deal with that many shots in a game.
Guardians are almost the same as Guard in stats.
They move faster, They hit better (not sure why) and they have a vastly superior gun (well 12" gun)
You put 20 guard lined up vs 10 Guardians it will be a slaughter. That is not fair. Make Guardians 6 points and give them 24 range lasguns like they used to have and Ill be happy to surround my dark reapers with 80+ bodies. Try that on for size.
Now that is what its like to face Manticores/Basilisk/Pask/etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/06 16:15:36
koooaei wrote: We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage. 5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
You don't even need a comissar to keep a large blob intact. IG is swimming in command points.
It costs you 1CP to use the 'Consolidate Squads' Stratagem to do a 'Blob Squad' at the end of your Movement phase. It also requires an INFANTRY SQUAD to be 2" from another INFANTRY SQUAD and both to be the same <Regiment>.
'Blob Squads' functionally do not exist as they used to(50 models with Commissars and Priests thrown in to tarpit elite units)
Additionally, "Fight to the Death" only allows for you to roll D3 for the Morale Test rather than a D6--it does not negate the Morale Test entirely or allow for you to remove 'just' one model instead.
As is ig troops are too effective for points. 10 extra for 10 dudes is not really all that much. That's just 30-60 off from a list.
And you still have amazing battle tanks
"An amazing battle tank". Vanquishers are still garbage. It's really just the basic LRBT and the Punisher that are making showings of themselves.
overpowered stormtrooper comsquads and other great stuff.
Oh boofrigginghoo about Scion Command Squads. They're Elite choices and for every Scion Command Squad you're required to also take a Tempestor Prime(That's an investment of 36 points before weapons on the Command Squad and an additional 40 for the Tempestor Prime).
Guards are showing in like 80% competitive imperium lists. It's a clear indicator that something is wrong with them. Maybe if you're playing a casual semi-optimised list, you won't notice that they're too good. But if you do, you also won't notice 30-60 points going away from your list cause of one unit getting more expensive and going back to your list cause another unit got cheaper.
Or it's because the people who dropped hundreds of dollars into Conscripts are just swapping them over to Guardsmen?
As for soup lists, yep, not getting any penalties for mixing stuff from different books is a real problem here. But keep in mind that gw gets sales increas because they actually allow you to take whatever you want. So, soup's here to stay.
Not even remotely the issue really. The issue is that they had two units that were the same basic setup(Lasguns), one of which was abused to hell and back again since there was no methodology to keep them out of allied lists. When that unit got nerfed, quite a few people switched one in every 10 models over to a Sergeant and maybe added some HWTs and called it a day.
koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage. 5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
It is entirely possible that they could change commissars in the FAQ as well, maybe guardsman go up to 5 points and commissars get UN-nerfed,
They didn't unnerf Commissars when they nerfed literally every other 'problem' unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/06 16:23:34
I don't want them to leave the OP armies alone untill everyhting is balanced. Even at 5 ppmGEq tanks most shots(S2ap0 and S6 ap0 being the exceptions I can find the fastest) more point efficiently then MEQ at 13.
And this is coming from an CWE player.
Soup is a separate discusion entirely but IMHO it boils down to more options will mostly beat less options.
admironheart wrote: A bolt gun can still only kill so many models. If you have loads of 4ppm on the table then its gak. Few Armies can deal with that many shots in a game.
Guardians are almost the same as Guard in stats.
They move faster, They hit better (not sure why) and they have a vastly superior gun (well 12" gun)
You put 20 guard lined up vs 10 Guardians it will be a slaughter. That is not fair. Make Guardians 6 points and give them 24 range lasguns like they used to have and Ill be happy to surround my dark reapers with 80+ bodies. Try that on for size.
20 Guard is 2 squads of Guardsmen.
A Lasgun is also Rapid Fire 1 with a 24" range(9 of them per squad; 6 if you have a Special Weapon bearer and a HWT as the Sergeant can never have a Lasgun), meaning that you putting your Guardians into range for their Shuriken Catapults are playing into the Guardsmen's strength.
Now take a unit of Rangers and shoot at the Guardsmen.
Now that is what its like to face Manticores/Basilisk/Pask/etc.
Basically every problem unit in the Guard book got nerfed with Chapter Approved or their errata/FAQ.
Eldar still have Dark Reapers. Your whining is irrelevant.
You have to be slowed to think they are going to nerf one thing and not buff something else. The meta is hordes right now. If your army is to good at hording, it will get nerfed. All those other units you say are gak? They will most likely get some love. That's what is happening to every codex. If they get enough love or not is yet to be seen, but they will get it. I'm sure we will see equal amounts of QQ out of Chaos players when they nerf Obliterators, Plague tanks, and other OP gak.
andysonic1 wrote: You have to be slowed to think they are going to nerf one thing and not buff something else. The meta is hordes right now. If your army is to good at hording, it will get nerfed. All those other units you say are gak? They will most likely get some love. That's what is happening to every codex. If they get enough love or not is yet to be seen, but they will get it. I'm sure we will see equal amounts of QQ out of Chaos players when they nerf Obliterators, Plague tanks, and other OP gak.
You can tell the meta is hordes right now by all those horde armies that won in LVO.
You know, horde armies like mono BA and Dark Reaper spam. (/sarcasm)
The problem isn't soup... Having one faction with another faction doesn't automatically make them OP.... The problem is with players having a mentality that they must win at all costs (even if that cost means people losing all respect in them, their bank account being diminished and them cheesing the hell out of a game). None of this would be a problem if people didn't just play this game for fun rather than turning it into a competitive game.The only players who are punished are the ones who play for fun and have a set fluffy army they play with! Compt players just move on to another game or another army...
This happens to all the games I play every single time! It's a nice casual experience until people start to realise they get a little more of a high if they win... They are loud and push the devs to go for a competitive game which then knocks everyone else out of the water.
andysonic1 wrote: You have to be slowed to think they are going to nerf one thing and not buff something else. The meta is hordes right now. If your army is to good at hording, it will get nerfed. All those other units you say are gak? They will most likely get some love. That's what is happening to every codex. If they get enough love or not is yet to be seen, but they will get it. I'm sure we will see equal amounts of QQ out of Chaos players when they nerf Obliterators, Plague tanks, and other OP gak.
Let's see, as a GK player I got nerfed by upping the cost of my Storm Ravens, all types of assault cannons and, Razorback. In return GW "buffed" my terminators from way over priced to only slightly over priced. Yep seems like an equal trade to me.
Well, if guardsmen did go up to 5 ppm, renegade infantry wouldn’t look quite as terrible on paper at 4 ppm. But then one remembers they still don’t get orders or stratagems and that extra 1 ppm is still a steal...
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Well, if guardsmen did go up to 5 ppm, renegade infantry wouldn’t look quite as terrible on paper at 4 ppm. But then one remembers they still don’t get orders or stratagems and that extra 1 ppm is still a steal...
To be fair, that's an index vs codex problem. The R&H list is an index list, and just like all index lists it lacks stratagems, a lot of army special rules, ... literally everything.
Punisher Heavy40 tanks are not ok either - in fact, there's a fair number of other Guard things that are also a bit over the top.
Is Guard the only faction that has overperforming/underpriced units? No. They're also not the only faction going to get nerfed.
Just because XYZ is nerfed multiple times in a row does NOT mean it's not warrented - sometimes it really is.
Seriously, try to look at this game through a non-imperial/non-biased lens; some things ARE overperforming, or underpriced - faction is irrelevant with these facts. It's not the end of the world if your army gets nerfed - it feels like it sucks, but if it's better for the game's health; so be it. I'd rather have them attempt to make a balanced game than cater to everyone's emotional whims.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/06 16:35:09
koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
13ppm for tac marines isn’t so hot either, yet the marine threads get plenty of “deal with it bro” style responses. It’s a horde meta; guardsmen were clearly underpriced at 4ppm. I’m happy to see the price hike. At this point I’m not sure GWs points system has enough nuance to it, and I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a change in the way that works.
Tac Marines are WS/BS3+ S/T4 1W LD7 with a 3+ save and rerollable Failed Morale tests(ATSNKF). Every model includes a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun and Frag and Krak Grenades.
They're not comparable. A Guardsman is a WS/BS4+ S/T3 1W LD6 model with a 5+(2 points worse) save and only features a Lasgun and Frag Grenades.
Jumping from BS 4+ to 3+ alone is considered worth 2 points(as evidenced by the price jump from a standard Guardsman to a Veteran) and going from a 5+ save to a 4+ is likely another point in and of itself(it's hard to make an exacting conversion on this one since the Scions have fairly significant stat differences to a Veteran on their weapons, and they also come equipped with Krak Grenades as well and have an alternate deployment method as well).
There seems to be a bit of wiggle room in points costing at times, but the rule of thumb seems to be that any stat(barring Leadership--which doesn't seem like it really gets priced unless it goes at or over 7--the only tangible difference between a Neophyte Hybrid and a standard Guardsman is LD7. It also seems that WS is exempted from this when the model has no CC weapon or is below a certain threshhold of S/T) going from 5+ to 4+ is 1ppm while any stat going from a 4+ to 3+ is instead 2 points of difference. It also seems that going from 3s to 4s on Toughness/Strength is +1ppm
So from that, one could speculate that Tactical Marines are:
+6ppm for the WS/BS/Sv3+. +2ppm for S/T4. +1ppm for LD7(8 on the Sergeant).
That's a difference of 9 points from a Guardsman.
Now, if you want to argue that Guard should pay for their Sergeants and/or Heavy Weapon Teams(Currently, an Infantry or Veteran Squad that takes a HWT don't pay for it in points--they just pay for the weapon)?
Sure. Fine. But I want more options for the Sergeants; including an option to fething have a Lasgun--and I want to see FRFSRF altered to include ALL weapons in a squad. Not just Lasguns.
Why not calculate?
1 unbuffed tactical marine kills 3.33 points of orks within rapid fire range. That's 0.256 points of dead orks per point of marines.
1 unbuffed guardsman kills 1.667 points of orks within rapid fire range. That's 0.417 points of dead orks per point of 4 ppm guarsman (63% better than a tactical marine).
If you include the most common and easiest buff to get for both guards and marines - those are double the shots for a guardsman and re-roll of ones to hit for a marine, 4ppm guardsman becomes 177% better at dealing damage to orks than a tactical marine.
I say, consider yourself lucky GW doesn't do basic math on their stuff. Otherwise, you'd get 6 ppm guards and a nerf to frf srf.
Man if only there was some difference between "Re-Roll 1s" and "FRFSRF."
You know, like one being an aura that works on every single unit within a certain distance throughout every phase of the game, while the other one works on a single unit in one phase and excludes any number of other neat things you could do to that unit.
But I guess since they're not different at all they're completely directly comparable, you know. Since one's a single-point buff for a single phase and the other one works forever on everyone.
(jesus christ this is like a videogame forum. "My AOE damage abilities that are easier to hit with are weaker against a single target than my SINGLE TARGET damage abilities that are very hard to use REEEEEEEE")
Why not calculate?
1 unbuffed tactical marine kills 3.33 points of orks within rapid fire range. That's 0.256 points of dead orks per point of marines.
1 unbuffed guardsman kills 1.667 points of orks within rapid fire range. That's 0.417 points of dead orks per point of 4 ppm guarsman (63% better than a tactical marine).
If you include the most common and easiest buff to get for both guards and marines - those are double the shots for a guardsman and re-roll of ones to hit for a marine, 4ppm guardsman becomes 177% better at dealing damage to orks than a tactical marine.
I say, consider yourself lucky GW doesn't do basic math on their stuff. Otherwise, you'd get 6 ppm guards and a nerf to frf srf.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Man if only there was some difference between "Re-Roll 1s" and "FRFSRF."
You know, like one being an aura that works on every single unit within a certain distance throughout every phase of the game, while the other one works on a single unit in one phase and excludes any number of other neat things you could do to that unit.
But I guess since they're not different at all they're completely directly comparable, you know. Since one's a single-point buff for a single phase and the other one works forever on everyone.
(jesus christ this is like a videogame forum. "My AOE damage abilities that are easier to hit with are weaker against a single target than my SINGLE TARGET damage abilities that are very hard to use REEEEEEEE")
Eldar are Guardsman with elite PPM model cost. "But they get buffs!" - Sure, from 75-100+ point cost models; add in the support costs, and Guardsman still win out.
Also; Guardsman have no lack of orders, between their named units and other HQ choices. Isn't there a 40 point commander that can issue two orders per turn? Sure, that's all he'l do, but that's still good enough.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Man if only there was some difference between "Re-Roll 1s" and "FRFSRF."
You know, like one being an aura that works on every single unit within a certain distance throughout every phase of the game, while the other one works on a single unit in one phase and excludes any number of other neat things you could do to that unit.
But I guess since they're not different at all they're completely directly comparable, you know. Since one's a single-point buff for a single phase and the other one works forever on everyone.
(jesus christ this is like a videogame forum. "My AOE damage abilities that are easier to hit with are weaker against a single target than my SINGLE TARGET damage abilities that are very hard to use REEEEEEEE")
Eldar are Guardsman with elite PPM model cost. "But they get buffs!" - Sure, from 75-100+ point cost models; add in the support costs, and Guardsman still win out.
Also; Guardsman have no lack of orders, between their named units and other HQ choices. Isn't there a 40 point commander that can issue two orders per turn? Sure, that's all he'l do, but that's still good enough.
Eldar are guardsmen with elite PPM stats and capabilities. And buffs, from units that also have elite stats and capabilities, completely unlike the IG buff-givers. Add in the support costs, and you're throwing elite units at chaff and wondering why you're not being points efficient. I, too, often am confused and distraught when my Shadowsword only kills 3 guardsmen for 404 points, and can only conclude that hordes are OP.
koooaei wrote: 5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.
As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.
And yet lots of people voted Infantry Squads as one of the most powerful units. Commissars were never really for regular squads anyway.
That didn't stop people from claiming that the Commissar "nerf" made them more helpful for SWS/HWS/Infantry Squads...despite the fact that it clearly didn't.
Perhaps the perspective from IG players is potentially biased? At least you'll have a reason to take conscripts now.
I don't want a "reason to take conscripts". I want my damn army left alone until we actually see full codices out for everyone.
I could have fixed the damn unit months ago by simply making it so that they can never be taken in anything less than a Brigade Detachment. I even submitted it as an idea to GW.
Maybe they are "poor" for that cost, but it still makes them a great flexible unit out front of some very effective vehicles.
Not if they require you to take a fething Brigade Detachment they don't.
I don't really disagree with you, but I think you highlight their greatest ability - filling out slots cheaply while being decent. I'm sure there are other avenues to a fix, but ones where we start over complicating what can and can't be taken in certain detachments will be far too cumbersome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/06 16:51:43
fe40k wrote: Guardsman are 5ppm models, full stop.
Prove it. I can prove they're not. Neophyte Hybrids are the same statline as a Guardsman but with LD7/8(Guardsmen are 6/7 when their Sergeant is alive). Neophytes are 5ppm.
Punisher Heavy40 tanks are not ok either - in fact, there's a fair number of other Guard things that are also a bit over the top.
Punishers are S5 AP0 D1 with a 24" range.
It's a fricking Boltgun with Heavy 20 that, if staying below a certain Movement Value, gets to fire its turret weapon twice. If a Punisher is OP then christ, what you must think of Tactical Marine spam!
Is Guard the only faction that has overperforming/underpriced units? No. They're also not the only faction going to get nerfed.
Until we see Dark Reapers or Guilliman or Assault Cannon Razorbacks or Mortarion or Magnus get MEANINGFUL nerfs? Yeah. We kinda are.
Guilliman went up 25 points...14.4% of his initial points cost.
A Primaris Psyker went from 28 to 38ppm.
Just because XYZ is nerfed multiple times in a row does NOT mean it's not warrented - sometimes it really is.
By that same vein, sometimes XYZ is nerfed multiple times in a row because someone thinks it's the problem--but it isn't.
Seriously, try to look at this game through a non-imperial/non-biased lens; some things ARE overperforming, or underpriced - faction is irrelevant with these facts. It's not the end of the world if your army gets nerfed - it feels like it sucks, but if it's better for the game's health; so be it. I'd rather have them attempt to make a balanced game than cater to everyone's emotional whims.
Then I expect Dark Reapers to get nerfed into the fething GROUND. They should get nerfed so fething hard they come out of the other side of the planet. They should get nerfed so hard they never show back up in a list until 10th edition.
I mean, if we want to talk about things that are "overperforming and underpriced"...that's where you fething start to look.
Honestly I can see a lot of salt on both sides with this, but I'm going to raise a point here and I fully expect to get yelled at in response. Regardless, here goes:
Points are for competitive play, and since the game is being played competitively they need to be regularly adjusted (regardless of faction) to try and keep the game balanced for tournament play.
Anyone who looks at the way the game is adjusted the Open Play power levels basically never change, but the points values for Matched Play do. Why? Because they're trying to ensure that armies that aren't doing as well in matched play become stronger with more options (see: dropping Primaris points so they'll actually see the table in competitive lists) while combinations that are seeing too much play (due to how strong the combinations are (see: Dark Reapers or Commander Spam)) will see nerfs, be it through points hikes (fully expect one on Dark Reapers) or changes made to the army through the Codex (GW has stated that Commander Spam is going to be addressed in the T'Au codex)).
So yes, it may affect people who don't play competitively but choose to play Matched Play, but in all honesty are we really flipping out over trying to improve game balance? This is the sort of constant tweaking we've been asking for since at least 5th edition (I didn't pay attention back during 3rd and missed 4th but I assume it's the same for those editions as well), and one of the things I've seen people claim that makes Warmachine better than 40k: regular constant tweaking of the game to adjust the meta so the game is more balanced (notice I said "more balanced" and not just "balanced" as no game will ever be perfect) and less exploitable.
Right now one of the things Guard need is to have the basic squads bumped up a little in points because for all they get they're too cheap. 5ppm is still a steal for everything they get (especially Cadia who get baked in re-rolls that Marines have to buy characters for just by being a gunline army that doesn't move) and in all honesty all it's going to do is reduce spamming brigades by a bit since the base cost is going to jump up 30 points per Brigade created (assuming no increase in points on characters). It's not a huge amount, but it might restrict some of the soup spam nonsense that is honestly not healthy for the game.
And while everyone is focused on the Guard, let's be honest, especially after LVO, there are going to be changes to every army. Especially codex armies since those books won't be seeing updates until the rest of the codexes launch. So before we assume Guard are being hosed here, let's wait and see what the whole picture looks like when the dust settles THEN flip out as the internet will do anyways.
Anyways, that's my .02¢ and I fully expect to either be ignored or yelled at for it.
ClockworkZion wrote: Honestly I can see a lot of salt on both sides with this, but I'm going to raise a point here and I fully expect to get yelled at in response. Regardless, here goes:
Points are for competitive play, and since the game is being played competitively they need to be regularly adjusted (regardless of faction) to try and keep the game balanced for tournament play.
Anyone who looks at the way the game is adjusted the Open Play power levels basically never change, but the points values for Matched Play do. Why? Because they're trying to ensure that armies that aren't doing as well in matched play become stronger with more options (see: dropping Primaris points so they'll actually see the table in competitive lists) while combinations that are seeing too much play (due to how strong the combinations are (see: Dark Reapers or Commander Spam)) will see nerfs, be it through points hikes (fully expect one on Dark Reapers) or changes made to the army through the Codex (GW has stated that Commander Spam is going to be addressed in the T'Au codex)).
So yes, it may affect people who don't play competitively but choose to play Matched Play, but in all honesty are we really flipping out over trying to improve game balance? This is the sort of constant tweaking we've been asking for since at least 5th edition (I didn't pay attention back during 3rd and missed 4th but I assume it's the same for those editions as well), and one of the things I've seen people claim that makes Warmachine better than 40k: regular constant tweaking of the game to adjust the meta so the game is more balanced (notice I said "more balanced" and not just "balanced" as no game will ever be perfect) and less exploitable.
Right now one of the things Guard need is to have the basic squads bumped up a little in points because for all they get they're too cheap. 5ppm is still a steal for everything they get (especially Cadia who get baked in re-rolls that Marines have to buy characters for just by being a gunline army that doesn't move) and in all honesty all it's going to do is reduce spamming brigades by a bit since the base cost is going to jump up 30 points per Brigade created (assuming no increase in points on characters). It's not a huge amount, but it might restrict some of the soup spam nonsense that is honestly not healthy for the game.
And while everyone is focused on the Guard, let's be honest, especially after LVO, there are going to be changes to every army. Especially codex armies since those books won't be seeing updates until the rest of the codexes launch. So before we assume Guard are being hosed here, let's wait and see what the whole picture looks like when the dust settles THEN flip out as the internet will do anyways.
Anyways, that's my .02¢ and I fully expect to either be ignored or yelled at for it.
I'm not actually upset that GW is trying to balance the game. I'm a bit upset that they're crowdsourcing the balance to the community, though. I know some ace Warhammer 40k players, and as you can tell by the recent LVO the ace players have moved beyond Guard as other codexes have come out, and the Guard that did show up did splendidly but not dominatingly. This tells me that there's been another meta shift since CA2017 and the recent codexes, and we should wait for it to shake out before making any rash decisions.
Instead, however, people that haven't adapted (for whatever reason, I get that some people simply can't) to the new edition and new books are allowed to dictate policy so long as they scream loud enough. It's easier to nerf guardsmen by 25% (by upping their cost) than it is to discover the unique and interesting ways that the tourney players (who no doubt had to kick some Astra Militarum ass to win LVO) have figured out to cope with the problem.
I wish they would do like AOS and make it so that certain allies cannot ally with others. You can't just ally in Tzeentch Daemons with Maggotkin of Nurgle for example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/06 17:05:23
Eldar are guardsmen with elite PPM stats and capabilities. And buffs, from units that also have elite stats and capabilities, completely unlike the IG buff-givers. Add in the support costs, and you're throwing elite units at chaff and wondering why you're not being points efficient. I, too, often am confused and distraught when my Shadowsword only kills 3 guardsmen for 404 points, and can only conclude that hordes are OP.
Just because IG infantry don't necessarily get buffed to Eldar levels (but to be frank IG have some damn good buffs) doesn't mean the big picture doesn't equate to something weaker than Eldar.
