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The best way i can see to keep things sane would be to allow pro-painted armies to count towards normal score, etc, just not allow them to win "Best Painted". Then as a reward for being "Best Painted" you win paints (or brushes, greenstuff, etc). 

Personally i'd love to see no propainted armies at tourneys, but I know that it isn't possible to be sure. And I'd rather see 12 propainted armies win than have one legit army get dq'd in error....

 

EDIT: Yes, this the system above would require the honor system, but the rewards might mitigate the desire to cheat (especially considering the points count for the tourney, no matter who painted it).

Posted By jaghatai on 06/29/2007 1:23 PM

The best way i can see to keep things sane would be to allow pro-painted armies to count towards normal score, etc, just not allow them to win "Best Painted". Then as a reward for being "Best Painted" you win paints (or brushes, greenstuff, etc). 

 

So, you mean the current way?

 

Posted By yakface on 06/29/2007 1:33 PM

Posted By jaghatai on 06/29/2007 1:23 PM

The best way i can see to keep things sane would be to allow pro-painted armies to count towards normal score, etc, just not allow them to win "Best Painted". Then as a reward for being "Best Painted" you win paints (or brushes, greenstuff, etc). 

 

So, you mean the current way?

 

But you don't actually win paintbrushes and greenstuff for winning Best Painted... right?

That just sounds ludicrous.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 06/29/2007 2:05 PM

Posted By yakface on 06/29/2007 1:33 PM

Posted By jaghatai on 06/29/2007 1:23 PM

The best way i can see to keep things sane would be to allow pro-painted armies to count towards normal score, etc, just not allow them to win "Best Painted". Then as a reward for being "Best Painted" you win paints (or brushes, greenstuff, etc). 

 

So, you mean the current way?

 

But you don't actually win paintbrushes and greenstuff for winning Best Painted... right?

That just sounds ludicrous.

Wouldn't those be better prizes for 'Worst Painted'?

Ludicrous, absolutely. If you win Best Painted and get battleboxes, etc. it gives players a motivation to be dishonest (everyone wants models). If you get paints/supplies instead, painters would be happy, but guys who hire out their stuff might not be as enthusiastic about the prize.

By removing as many motivations to lie as possible, you MIGHT be able to prevent some of the dishonesty, but you can never be sure you've removed it all.

The more I think about it the less it is such a big deal now if pro painted armies win best overall. I know it is a flip flop on my part but I guess I was able to work out this issue of mine here.

- G

To be frank, if you allow pro-painted armies to win points for a player, why not let that player pay ringers to do everything for him?

Select a codex, make a list, do conversions, painting, fight all the battles. Pay a dream team to do it all for you.

The "player" himself need only fork over the money and accept the winner awards at the end.

That is the real spirit of the hobby.

Exactly.

- G

Posted By Kilkrazy on 06/30/2007 11:53 AM
To be frank, if you allow pro-painted armies to win points for a player, why not let that player pay ringers to do everything for him?

Select a codex, make a list, do conversions, painting, fight all the battles. Pay a dream team to do it all for you.

The "player" himself need only fork over the money and accept the winner awards at the end.

That is the real spirit of the hobby.

Were the purpose of a tourney solely every man playing to simply win, you'd be correct.  But that is NOT the purpose of a tourney.  So your postulation is flawed.

The purpose of a tourney is to PLAY.  People get help on their lists all the time...it can't be controlled or monitored.  The only thing you see a person do at the tourney is PLAY.  The list is built before (in private), same with the painting of the army.

Were your concerns that valid, the list, the painting, and the competition would all be held in public.  They are not.

Besides, if someone just wants trophies, they could easily do what you said.  It would make no sense, since ther point of the hobby is playing with well-painted armies.  There already is a specific painting competition...the Golden Demon.  That should apply the rigid rules to painting/converting.  The tourney side focuses on the game itself.

A tournament has several purposes, to play, to win prizes, and to promote all aspects of the hobby. Since GW have come out publically against pre-painted figures, they obviously do not consider pro-painted armies to be a valid part of their hobby, and would not wish to promote them at the official tournaments.

How are pre-painted and pro-painted the same?

Things are sold pre-painted, usually by underpaid workers on assembly lines in fairly awful countries. Pro-painted means some individual was paid to paint an army, in a specific scheme, and within the visuals of the established universe.

Your second postulation makes a HUGE leap equating pro-painted to pre-painted.

Pre-painted and pro-painted are both members of the set of figures which a player does not paint himself, but buys ready painted.

Yes indeed a pre-painted army and pro painted army are exactly the same unless you can convince someone to give you for free. As Killkrazy has said the tournament scene is about a lot more than simply winning. That is what gladiator events are for.

- G

Posted By Kilkrazy on 07/01/2007 4:23 AM
Since GW have come out publically against pre-painted figures, they obviously do not consider pro-painted armies to be a valid part of their hobby, and would not wish to promote them at the official tournaments.

Have they?  They allow pro-painted armies to enter GT's and even win best overall.  That sounds to me like they consider it a valid part of the hobby.

Dave Taylor is all about painting your own models and conversions.

- G

But the RULES aren't. Is Dave Taylor changing that particular rule?

I'll hazard a guess.

NO.

But he may have influence over time.

- G

Posted By skkipper on 06/19/2007 9:35 AM
If you pay somebody to paint your army which could easily approach a grand for a high level paint job. you probally put as much time into earning the money as you would have painting.

I just started reading this thread so if others have commented then so be it.  This statement is completely false.  I personally have 600 - 700 hours into converting, sculpting and painting my chaos force.  It is actually far easier to earn money to pay someone to paint a force of the same quality level.

As far as propainted armies go, I personally do not care if people play with them at tournaments and get full points for the overall win.  I am 100% for the current concept that you can win the Best Painted award if and only if you painted your entire force (not even 95% is good enough).  People should not lie about this award simply because of the effort and dedication that it takes to reach that level of painting. 

Based on my previous experience, the hits that people would take in the early 2000s due to not painting their forces were unjustified.  I used to be of the opinion that you had to paint your entire force in order to win overall.  However, after seeing the crap points that people would get at one time for being honest, I found it was just not worth it.  

Painting your own army and winning with it is a personal matter that players have to decide what is best for themselves.  I believe it is a higher level of achievement if you do all of the work yourself.  However, that is again just a personal standard that I have looked to hold myself to over the past couple years.  

The thing is what is to stop someone from fielding a pro-painted army and using it to win the best painted award?

- G

Oh I forgot that people really only care about best overall and will do whatever it takes. So who really cares about best painted anyways.

- G

Posted By Green Bloater on 07/03/2007 5:22 AM
Oh I forgot that people really only care about best overall and will do whatever it takes. So who really cares about best painted anyways.

- G

Yeah, pretty much the people bringing pro-painted armies really only care about winning "overall" because the part of the hobby they enjoy the most is playing the game.   And yes, most people going to the GT only care about winning overall, because it's called the Grand Tournament and isn't the Golden Demon Painting Competition.

I'm just saying and it makes a valid point...

- G

Posted By Green Bloater on 07/02/2007 7:05 AM
But he may have influence over time.

Which still doesn't change the fact that the statement was wrong at the time it was written.

>>>The thing is what is to stop someone from fielding a pro-painted army and using it to win the best painted award?

And what do you propose to stop them?  There is nothing any Tournament Organizer can do to stop pro-painted armies from being entered by people willing to lie about it.  It is a reality beyond anyone's ability to change, so I don't understand why you'd keep bringing it up unless you have a solution.

 

Post removed for being a ridiculous and needless insult.

GB, you've been right on the line this whole thread insulting people who don't agree with your viewpoint, but if you feel the need to do it again I will lock the thread.

--yakface

I've asked you that same question time and again, and have yet to receive an answer. All you responded with is an insult to DT.

Whereas cogent arguments have been made time and again for why many of us feel that player honesty should simply (and only) remove the army from BP consideration, and not restrict the player to no chance at Overall. We feel this would increase the chances of those with professionally painted armies being up-front about it. It would also ensure greater access to the GT scene, and it also likely improves the overall quality of armies at a GT. It provides a larger pool of entrants, and provides incentive to be honest, which increases the chance that the Best Painted army will be awarded to someone who actually deserves it.

Except for personal anecdotes, we've seen no rational arguments stating otherwise...just personal opinions.

I have stated that I have run many tournaments. None have been at the level of an Adepticon or indy GT. I have always enforced players must paint their own armies for full points. I do not presently know how to successfully enforce this at an Adepticon or GT level event. When I run my own GT I will explore this in detail. I am sure it can be done.

- G

Greenbloater you might tweek your statement before you get nastigrams from the admin.

Edit: erp..too late.

Dakka is fairly lenient on moderation so I have to say I lost my temper. I was unhappy with Doctor Thunder speaking as an authority on GW GT policy and decision making at that level.

- G

Did you have regular painting sessions where everyone involved was only able to use units they painted at those sessions? Failing that, I can't see how this can be achieved. It also seems impractical since under this type of scrutiny. Wouldn't it either take too long to get units ready to game, or the quality of the painting suffer?

I'm very interested in the steps you took to oversee this.