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Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

yakface wrote:From my experiences the amount of people who I ever see playing Battletech has always been very low. And from my understanding of BattleTech history wasn't there some point when the company was doing very well and where they were releasing expansions all the time and then the company went under? At that point didn't a large chunk of the fan-base stop playing (or am I mis-remembering)?


I'd argue that their player-base is no smaller nor larger than most of the 'successful' games. I don't know a soul who plays historical games, nor D&D for that matter, and they've been going strong for a long, long time.

But, and this is without attempting to derail the thread, let me give you the brief brief short version on BTech:

1. BTech is launched as 'BattleDroids'.
2. George Lucas gets his panties in a twist and orders them to change the name.
3. Year later BattleTech comes out.
4. BTech establishes itself as an iconic game, party because of the images and Mecha taken from various Japanese sources, and also through things like computer games (one of the first PC games on CD I ever got was MechWarrior 2 - and who doesn't know what an Atlas or a Timber Wolf is?).
5. (This is the strange one) The heads of FASA, at the time, come to the conclusion that there's no future in their line of business, and decide to shut the company down. People often mistake this for FASA going out of business. Well... they did go out of business but they chose to. As I said, it's a strange one.
6. This sends Ral Partha out of business as they had gone from a model making company to a symbiotic company that needed FASA to stay afloat. So there was one company that died out of this, but it wasn't FASA.
7. Jordan Wiseman, one of the original creators of BTech, buys the rights and starts Wizkids. He makes BTech into a collectable miniature game in line with his MageKnight line.
8. This is where you see the reduction in players. BTech hadn't change anything in all those years - the rules had been tweaked and whatnot, but there hadn't been any wholesale paradigm shifts ala 40K 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed.
9. BattleTech, as we know it, becomes Classic BattleTech, bought by a German company called FanPro. A lot of old FASA people work there and continue to put new products out.
10. Wizkids is bought by Topps somewhere during this.
11. Classic BattleTech gets transferred to Catalyst Game Labs, they release many new products, starting with Total Warfare, the first major upgrade/revision to the BTech rules. Now that was a FanPro product, but it got its big boost when Catalyst came on board. Still, the rules are the same. At that point it becomes a case of 'BTech isn't dead - it's just been very quiet until now'.
12. There is a product explosion, with new sourcebooks and rulebooks/expansions coming out several times a year (books 10 times the size of any GW product, with about 100 times the polish, but coming out at the same rate as GW). This includes the Origin-winning Intro Boxed set.
13. Wizkids goes out of business. Topps scuttles the company.
14. BTech, now in its 25th year (this year), changes from Classic BattleTech back to just BattleTech again.

There were certainly lows during the 25 years it’s been around, but the strange part is there was never a point where the game stopped or ended and had to be picked up again. The Wizkids/Dark Age crap alienated a lot of fans - myself included - but BTech had always survived on the loyalty of its players and word of mouth - they couldn't open their own chain stores and I doubt they would do anyway. BTech never actually died due to a company going out of business, it just jumped between a couple of different companies with a slower release sched than others would have liked. It has since taken that production into overdrive the past few years thanks to Catalyst's involvement and (it seems) Topps' happiness to let them do what they want. The only thing that could/might kill BTech is now what happens with Topps. If they sell the rights to someone else, then it's anyone's guess as to what happens next. As it stands, when Topps put them up for sale, the interest in the BTech and Shadowrun properties was so high that Topps decided to withdraw them from sale and hold onto them, re-licensing it to Catalyst rather than just selling it outright.

And that's the short short version.

   
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Cannock

(1) It makes outdated codices diadvantaged
(2) It makes the core rules in the basic book meaningless, where in the basic book does it explain:
Chapter Tactics
Combat Squads
Orders etc.
Will even one army survive the codex rewrites that actually uses the morale rules as written in the core book? What is the point of instant death for example, everything one would like to instant death is now immune to it with Eternal Warrior/hive mind it seems...
(3) It makes the game a convoluted mess, where a player has to own and bring every codex with him all the time to have the whole rule set.

The biggest pains in the neck (complexity and unusual situations) in the last set of rules were arguably unique powers, for example: We'll be back, Monolith, Faith Points, Daemon dex etc.

Until all the codices are published, who knows what 5th is really going to be like, and until your new dex comes out armies seem like they will be really disadvantaged. I think the real 5th edition, has yet to surface, 6th is already being written, right now, in each new codex.

What say you?


I don't believe that the latest codexs are changing the rules edition, the core rules remain the same, which are 5th edition. Though so far I have been impressed with all the latest codex releases I've purchased, except Chaos Marines. They seem wishy washy and still follow the ridgit codex formats of 4th edition. When I say this I mean they don't have any fancy rules or unique army abilites like chapter tactics or orders. Chaos just have normal hq's and normal other units with normal upgrades.

Though to answer the points:

1. I agree. Older codexs like Necrons and Tyranids which I used to play and have dropped both armies suffer against the latest breed of codexs and new rule set. Some can still hold there own better than others, but like the updated codexs they don't have anything unique to the army, just here's your army list etc.

2. I can't see how unique army abilities need to be in the main rule book like and they shall know no fear used to be in 4th. The core rules are the core rules for the game, no point in listing army rules as some people might not be interested in them and plus they are rules for that army, not for the game itself. However flip side to the coin is people are both aware how certain rules work i.e We'll be back and Synapse creature.

3. Why does the player need to own every codex, as mentioned those rules are unique to that army. There is little benefit to having all rules if your not going to use them or play with them all the time. Currently I've played Dark Eldar once, there is no point for me to know there rules as I don't play them nor play against them. I think with army rules it is the players responsbility to explain the rule or let the other player read the codex. TBH the latest army special rules are quite simple as they really are using part of the core rules i.e ork mob rule = fearless, orders allows say 2D6 to run or twin linked. These are simple core rules what the average player should know. Its quite easy to say this order (for imperial guard) allows me twin linked against tanks and monstrous creatures. I don't think everyone needs to be aware of that when can be easily explained.

I agree that the older codexs had more complicated rules and systems such as WBB and faith points as mentioned, the new codexs have more of these army special rules but they are a lot easier to follow.

5th edition will start coming more into its own when the main races codexs are updated. We 5th edition being more streamlined and IMO easier to play than 4th the new codexs go hand in hand with it and make a much better and interesting game. Though, until we get a few more of these updates codexs the games is one sided for the newer codexs and the army special rules work better.

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Gwar! wrote:
Mad Rabbit wrote:$50 new rulebook aside, I cannot wait for 6th edition.
Yes, because the edition change is the reason newer codex's are more powerful...

What?

How will a 6th edition rulebook make ANY difference to your "Nerfed" Chaos Codex?


Maybe it was somehow unclear, but I want a new edition. Not just a new rulebook, but everything that comes with a new edition i.e. new codexes. THAT would fix my "Nerfed" Chaos Codex. The problem I was mentioning is the fact that we'd all have to pay more for slightly different rules. Again.

The new generation of codexes are the imbalanced part. What's another name of "generation" for a set of rules? Edition. Thanks.

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Made in gb
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Mad Rabbit wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Mad Rabbit wrote:$50 new rulebook aside, I cannot wait for 6th edition.
Yes, because the edition change is the reason newer codex's are more powerful...

What?

How will a 6th edition rulebook make ANY difference to your "Nerfed" Chaos Codex?


Maybe it was somehow unclear, but I want a new edition. Not just a new rulebook, but everything that comes with a new edition i.e. new codexes. THAT would fix my "Nerfed" Chaos Codex. The problem I was mentioning is the fact that we'd all have to pay more for slightly different rules. Again.

The new generation of codexes are the imbalanced part. What's another name of "generation" for a set of rules? Edition. Thanks.
Ah, I see. Well, to be honest, with some codex's pushing 10+ Years, I highly Doubt GW will release a new 6th edition until they update all the Legacy Codex's. Of course thats me being optimistic (i.e. Wishlisting )

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That's why I can see the possibility of a bunch of lists in the back of the book for a little while. It's not a pleasant option, but honestly it's ridiculous that Dark Eldar are still playing with a 3rd edition book and Space Marines get redone first (or close to it) every edition.

Besides, how many pages of background do I really need? I can find all the painting information I need online, and the fluff sections are beginning to look familiar from edition to edition. It's not a huge problem to shell out $20ish so that I can play my army, but if I could pay for just the rules I'd be happier.

Disclaimer: The above is fantasy land. I know that it will never occur as long as profit matters. It's just my reaction to a set of constantly updated rules that seems tangled to me.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Yak, I agree with most of what you and others have said regarding rules updates keeping interest (and also necessary to sell product to keep GW running given the nature of their game systems). However, for me, it is not that GW puts out new rules it is the way they are released. For example, if you play an army that is 3rd or 4th edition codex, you might be at a disadvantage fighting newer codices. When you finally (hopefully) get a new 5th edition codex (perhaps after many years) so that your army is better (hopefully) able to play against the other 5th edition codices it is painful to then have a new edition of the main rulebook come out 6months to a year after your codex and screw up the new codex. Going by the posts saying that a new main rulebook comes out about every 4-5 years, with the rate codices are updated some will not get updated and others will have short lived 'happy days' before once again being outdated. GW should either put more effort into updating all the codices faster after a new main rulebooks to allow players to have more years of happy gaming. Another way is for GW to use White Dwarf and/or its website to provide minor quick fixes/updates for a codex that has become outdated. This would not cover all changes so a new codex will still be desired, but it will provide players with some fixes to keep their codex/favourite army more playable until the new codex is released (maybe years away). For example, the tyranid codex could have a few simple fixes to bring it more in line with other 5th ed codices such as knocking a few points off hormagaunts and allowing them to go to second stories or buildings, dropping the cost of raveners and lictors, etc. The major work would be done in the next codex perhaps with new models/units. this would keep players playing these armies and want to use/buy other models since they would still be worthwhile.
   
 
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