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Freedom of Speech means nothing if it is not lent to views deemed "outrageous" or "insulting" by the majority.

Commonly accepted and well-liked views need no protection.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, the legislature mentions a Gordia Schiara or something, what are they? Polizie?

Yes, they are the Irish Police.

Gwar! wrote:It doesn't protect my views, which may be insulting to Religious People, but they are my views. I notice how insulting Atheism isn't Illegal.

That depends entirely on whether or not the state views Atheism as a religion.

dogma wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It doesn't protect my views, which may be insulting to Religious People, but they are my views. I notice how insulting Atheism isn't Illegal.

That depends entirely on whether or not the state views Atheism as a religion.

QFT.
I'm just saying that according to legislature it doesn't lean to any particular religeon.

This will get about as far as the proposed changes to ISP Services and the crackdown on illegal file sharing the UK government is attempting to whitewash through the House of Lords.

Gwar is a Jew? This changes everything.

That aside, I would find this legislation pretty concerning to live beneath. As a solution to issues of religious unrest it sounds like it could be effective, but it does seem to make it illegal for outsiders to comment on religious groups, meaning everyone's just ignoring the problem. I don't know enough Irish to know whether they need this bad of an attitude adjustment... but the general feeling I get is slapping someone in the face with a book that has 'be good' printed on the cover and telling them to shut up.

Oh, so it's a bill? Not actual law yet?

I don't think it will get passed. Atheists get too much of a kick out of pissing off christians, and christians get too much of a kick from pissing off muslims.

According to reds8an's friend, it's unlikely it will be passed.

Gwar, if you actually take the trouble to read the text of the proposed law you will see that there are many available defences to an accusation against of you libellous blasphemy.

I think you are very naive to suppose that any government will pass a law that lets anyone say anything they like, to anyone, anywhere. Society would not allow it and it would cause continual fighting.

Even in the USA, there are many limitations on Free Speech, such as libel or threatening behaviour.

You are protesting too much.

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Honestly, it seems to protect ALL views, not just christians,

It doesn't protect my views, which may be insulting to Religious People, but they are my views. I notice how insulting Atheism isn't Illegal.

Atheism isn't a religion, as many atheists seem to be tripping over themselves to point out. I guess technically it doesn't even mean that you don't have "religious" belief, it just means you don't believe in a god.

I suppose it is possible to be an atheist and believe in any number of spirits or whatever, though that isn't what people using the word intend.

...Um, if your athesit then nothing spiritual "goes for ya".
I think you're talking about agnostics.

@Kilkrazy: Right again, mate.

As dogma would no doubt point out, atheism is the lack of belief in a god, which says nothing about other beliefs regarding the metaphysical (reincarnation, for example).

Also, as far as I can tell no one in this thread has said that people should be able to "say anything they like, to anyone, anywhere", that's a strawman.

You sure? I thought and atheist was a die-hard believer in nothing religous/spiritual. An agnostic doesn't know. And they HAVE religeons for reincarnation and such.

Also if you were, I don't know, a muslim and somebody walked up to you and said.
"Your religeon breeds terrorists and suicide bombers, your people are a poision on this planet, your religeon is suffocating our rights."
How would you feel?

Also, from my time in Dubai, I have realised what idiots people are. Tourists in Dubai take pictures with women (who are wearing the Abaya, can't spell) when the women is clearly uncomfortable, and doing things that would see a local ostrasized and shunned for thier inappropriate behavior. You don't realise how restrained some people are over there. It's kind of like someone walking into a church a drinking from the place where the "holy water" is. Then snatching the wine and slugging it all.

Emperors Faithful wrote:You sure? I thought and atheist was a die-hard believer in nothing religous/spiritual. An agnostic doesn't know. And they HAVE religeons for reincarnation and such.

No, Atheism is not a Belief in nothing, it is the school of thought that there is no "gods" to believe in. Big BIG Difference.

...i didn't say NOTHING gwar. I said nothing religeous or spiritual. BIG Difference. You bassically told me off, and then reiterated what I said.

Emperors Faithful wrote:...i didn't say NOTHING gwar. I said nothing religeous or spiritual. BIG Difference. You bassically told me off, and then reiterated what I said.

You say it is a belief though, it is not. It is a school of thought.

Emperors Faithful wrote:You sure? I thought and atheist was a die-hard believer in nothing religous/spiritual. An agnostic doesn't know. And they HAVE religeons for reincarnation and such.

By the true definition of the word, it only refers to gods. Some sects of Buddhism are atheistic, in that sense.

It commonly means a lack of any religion though. After all, a Buddhist would refer to themselves themselves a Buddhist, not an atheist.

Also if you were, I don't know, a muslim and somebody walked up to you and said.
"Your religeon breeds terrorists and suicide bombers, your people are a poision on this planet, your religeon is suffocating our rights."
How would you feel?

Annoyed, most likely, as I would be if someone said that a lack of religion has lead to things like Stalin's purges.

However, I wouldn't consider it my right to have that person arrested, or fined for saying that to me. If I had told them to go away and they continued to bother me, I might have a case against them for harassment. If they were on my property I would kick them off (or have them arrested for trespassing if they weren't supposed to be there in the first place).

If I came across that written on the internet, or in an editorial column, I would accept that it's the opinion of the writer. I would possibly respond with a defense, as that's my right as well. Once again, I would not see it as my right to have them forcibly stopped.

Also, from my time in Dubai, I have realised what idiots people are. Tourists in Dubai take pictures with women (who are wearing the Abaya, can't spell) when the women is clearly uncomfortable, and doing things that would see a local ostrasized and shunned for thier inappropriate behavior. You don't realise how restrained some people are over there. It's kind of like someone walking into a church a drinking from the place where the "holy water" is. Then snatching the wine and slugging it all.

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is. This law isn't meant to protect people from tourists, surely?

...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

Emperors Faithful wrote:...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

No, we KNOW there is no god. You do not know there is a god, you Believe there is one.

Well, there's a difference between believing that there isn't a god (weak atheism) and believing that you know there isn't a god (strong atheism).

The former is actually compatible with agnosticism, the later isn't.

I don't know if that's what Gwar was referring too, of course. God dammit, Gwar!

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't know if that's what Gwar was referring too, of course.

Hot damn you were right on the money there, and I ninja'd ya :3

Emperors Faithful wrote:You sure? I thought and atheist was a die-hard believer in nothing religous/spiritual. An agnostic doesn't know. And they HAVE religeons for reincarnation and such.

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. When you claim to be agnostic you are making a statement of knowledge. When you claim to be an Atheist you are making a statement of belief. As such, you can have agnostic atheists (I don't believe in God, but I don't know that he isn't real) and agnostic theists (I believe in God, but I don't know that he is real). The practical difference between these two positions is moot, which is why many people will claim agnosticism even if they happen to lean towards atheism or theism. In essence, once you admit to ignorance, your specific beliefs are next to irrelevant.

That said, there are forms of Atheism which constitute a belief. Weak atheism (what Orkeosaurus described) is the basic form of atheism, and is not a belief. Strong atheism (what Gwar! seems to adhere to) is a belief, as it involves an active claim; that being 'God does not exist'.

For clarity:
Weak Atheism = I do not believe in God
Strong Atheism = I believe there is no God

The thing is, it is not a belief. Calling it a Belief implies that I adhere some sort of legitimacy to religion, when I do not.

Saying "I know there is no god" or "There is no god", is not a belief.

Emperors Faithful wrote:...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

Atheists do not BELIEVE there are no gods, in the way that a Christian believes in 'God' or a Muslim in 'Allah'. Atheists believe the existence of a god or gods is so unlikely, and unnecessary, as to be an almost negligible probability - such as, when you flip a coin, you only ask Heads or Tails. You intellectually are aware there is a third option, that it lands on the rim, but you discount it as the odds are astronomically against this eventuality.

That is Atheism.

Agnostics do believe there is a god or gods - they just don't follow a set religion, because they can't get over their own crippling self-doubt enough to man up and realise they're better off as an atheist (or, admittedly, being a dogmatic religious person would also be better emotionally, but probably impossible given said doubts.)

EDIT: How the Dakka was I quintuple ninja'd?!?!?!

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

No, we KNOW there is no god. You do not know there is a god, you Believe there is one.

There is no WE when referring to Atheists, unless your going to claim that there are some common beliefs which unite you into a collective. If that's the case you're straying awfully close to a religious movement.

dogma wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

No, we KNOW there is no god. You do not know there is a god, you Believe there is one.

There is no WE when referring to Atheists, unless your going to claim that there are some common beliefs which unite you into a collective. If that's the case you're straying awfully close to a religious movement.

Sorry, I suppose that was the incorrect terminology. I did not intend to imply that Atheism was a cohesive set of Beliefs or Practices. Apologies for the mixup.

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, it is not a belief. Calling it a Belief implies that I adhere some sort of legitimacy to religion, when I do not.

Saying "I know there is no god" or "There is no god", is not a belief.

Not all belief is religious. Only sets (a key differentiation) of beliefs about the metaphysical earn that label. Your statement 'I know there is no God' is a statement of knowledge, but statements of knowledge are ultimately predicated on belief. You can't say you know something without first believing it to be true.

Orkeosaurus wrote:As dogma would no doubt point out, atheism is the lack of belief in a god, which says nothing about other beliefs regarding the metaphysical (reincarnation, for example).

Also, as far as I can tell no one in this thread has said that people should be able to "say anything they like, to anyone, anywhere", that's a strawman.

It's not a straw man, it's an argument by reductio ad absurdam.

Someone implied that he would be unable to make any criticism of religion because of this proposed law. That isn't true as there are specific defences based on rational criticism, etc, provided in the proposed law.

By ignoring these available defences, which would allow him to make scholarly statements for example, his implication is that he should be allowed to say whatever he likes about religion. Of course he can, in private if there is no-one to observe him, but he wants to be free do it in public. Logically he is saying he should be allowed to say anything he likes, anywhere, to anyone, about religion, because freedom of speech trumps other considerations.

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:...They BELIEVE that there is no god. They THINK there is no god. Can you pleez point out the difference to me Gwar?

No, we KNOW there is no god. You do not know there is a god, you Believe there is one.

Now that's just trolling. I lol, if you're joking, but it sounds just a LITTLE arrogant to claim that you truly KNOW something like that Gwar. That you've got it figured out and the rest of the human race is way off track. Also, pleez don't put me in the YOU category, I never said i was religeous. If there is one thing i am almost sure, is that man cannot KNOW anything beyond doubt.

I challenge you Gwar. Tell me one thing that you KNOW to be true, beyond doubt. (P.S. "I think, therefore I am" is taken)

Emperors Faithful wrote:I challenge you Gwar. Tell me one thing that you KNOW to be true, beyond doubt. (P.S. "I think, therefore I am" is taken)

Water is wet at sea level atmospheric pressure and 15 Degrees Celsius.