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That's rich, coming from you.

I see an interesting theme here...

I was not aiming at you in particular, but this whole thread has reached the point of being pointless. You and I are quite clearly, for want of a better term, "strongly atheist". We are not going to convince people to join us in this thread. Not least because of the fact that, no matter what their conscious selves beleive, they have no logical basis fo their beliefs for us to challenge.

Fifty wrote:I was not aiming at you in particular, but this whole thread has reached the point of being pointless. You and I are quite clearly, for want of a better term, "strongly atheist". We are not going to convince people to join us in this thread. Not least because of the fact that, no matter what their conscious selves beleive, they have no logical basis fo their beliefs for us to challenge.

I agree with you whole heartedly, but it is always to try, even if futile

Sorry, I forgot this one. My personal favorite.

Fifty wrote:I was not aiming at you in particular, but this whole thread has reached the point of being pointless. You and I are quite clearly, for want of a better term, "strongly atheist". We are not going to convince people to join us in this thread. Not least because of the fact that, no matter what their conscious selves beleive, they have no logical basis fo their beliefs for us to challenge.

Sweet, sweet irony.

Edit: Can someone please reformat Wrexasaur's pics?

The big one is even funnier BECAUSE it is big though, and I get to use the quick reply like a type-writer... just try it.

I'm going to get shot for this.
Im in favor of this law. maybe know atheist will know what it fells like to be persecuted for there beliefs.

garret wrote:I'm going to get shot for this.
Im in favor of this law. maybe know atheist will know what it fells like to be persecuted for there beliefs.

Atheism is not a belief. And this doesn't just stop Atheists, this stops other Christians saying "Your Version of Christianity is Wrong", stops Jews saying "Jesus was not the Messiah" and stops Pagans saying "Christianity is evil", which in my Opinion is utterly wrong, or did Americans stop believing in the concept of Free Speech?

I never been a big proponent of free speech.
cause when any idiot says something stubid all hell will break lose

Gwar! wrote:Atheism is not a belief.

Strong Atheism is a belief. Weak Atheism is not. You are clearly a Strong Atheist, you have a belief, sorry.

I do not Believe in No god, I choose to not believe in gods, because I know there aren't any. I am not "Believing" anything.

garret wrote:I never been a big proponent of free speech.
cause when any idiot says something stubid all hell will break lose

garret wrote:FREE SPEECH!!!!! HA
Free speech are just words. free speech doesnt truly exist anywhere in this world. neither does freedom of religion or freedom of press. There are no true freedoms in this world only lies of freedom

Oh, the irony.

Gwar! wrote:I do not Believe in No god, I choose to not believe in gods, because I know there aren't any. I am not "Believing" anything.

Which would mean you lack a belief in God. That is distinct from "I believe there are no Gods". You can have one, or the other, not both.

As a Weak Atheist you cannot make the claim "I know there is no God" as you did before. As soon as you make such a claim you have a belief.

dogma wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I do not Believe in No god, I choose to not believe in gods, because I know there aren't any. I am not "Believing" anything.

Which would mean you lack a belief in God. That is distinct from "I believe there are no Gods". You can have one, or the other, not both.

Yeah, I lack a belief in god because there are none.

Gwar! wrote:.Yeah, I lack a belief in god because there are none.

Which makes you a Strong Atheist, who is necessarily possessed of a belief. That being: "I believe there is/are no God/god/s"

Gwar, by that logic, then you believe that Gods do not exist. Therefore you believe in something, you have a belief.

Regardless, knowing Gwar!, you'll have some kind of either snarky remark or somesuch, so I'm dropping the idea of arguing with you, as it would be like throwing rocks at a wall, pointless, it would accomplish little, etc.


Back on topic, I disagree with this law. I may be Catholic, but people deserve their own opinions. If someone wants to say "God is an imaginary friend" I will disagree, but it's their right, regardless.

Cryonicleech wrote:Gwar, by that logic, then you believe that Gods do not exist. Therefore you believe in something, you have a belief.

Regardless, knowing Gwar!, you'll have some kind of either snarky remark or somesuch, so I'm dropping the idea of arguing with you, as it would be like throwing rocks at a wall, pointless, it would accomplish little, etc.

Oh forgive me, I did not realise I was supposed to debate my half of the argument. My apologies.

And I do not see it as a belief. Belief implies that there is some sort of acceptance of other "beliefs" as legitimate. I KNOW there are no "gods" through both physical (Why isn't he visible etc) and Philosophical (Why is there evil etc) that proves that there is no god, and even IF there was (there isn't) he is such a malevolent PoS that worshipping him is pointless.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

garret wrote:I never been a big proponent of free speech.
cause when any idiot says something stubid all hell will break lose

garret wrote:FREE SPEECH!!!!! HA
Free speech are just words. free speech doesnt truly exist anywhere in this world. neither does freedom of religion or freedom of press. There are no true freedoms in this world only lies of freedom

Oh, the irony.

no not really. In the second quote I wasnt stating my stance on free speech just the truth.
Also Gwar how do you know there is no god.What proof do you have?

Gwar! wrote:
And I do not see it as a belief.

That's fine, its still a belief. Unless you happen to be one of those delusional religious folk.

Gwar! wrote:
Belief implies that there is some sort of acceptance of other "beliefs" as legitimate.

No, it doesn't.

Gwar! wrote:
I KNOW there are no "gods" through both physical (Why isn't he visible etc) and Philosophical (Why is there evil etc) that proves that there is no god, and even IF there was (there isn't) he is such a malevolent PoS that worshipping him is pointless.

No, you believe there is no God. Unless you've managed to transcend the scientific method.

I am not a religious person, ritualistic idealism (which is what religion mostly consists of, no offense intended) never suited my fancy. To deny someones perspective based on your inability to understand it, on top of denying the fact that you ACTUALLY have a belief system is pretty stubborn.

Spirituality I do believe in, to the same degree that I believe in "God", and this is where I can actually see the point of religion in itself. I have rituals that I perform each day, some positive and some negative, there is no reason why some one can't choose what rituals they want to have in their life (to a degree of course, rational right and wrong, or the Law applies heavily here). If someone likes Yoyo's, and chooses to make an intense habit with strict patterns and repetition, they have found their own "religion"; which could include a form of "God" in itself. If the same person chooses to use their ritual of Yoyoing to annoy and batter passers-by they should be reprimanded by the law. There is very little difference between a stray Yoyo to the face, and an irate anti-me screaming about how everything I ever believed is wrong, and you need to pay attention to my Yoyo- God.

Gwar! wrote:And I do not see it as a belief. Belief implies that there is some sort of acceptance of other "beliefs" as legitimate. I KNOW there are no "gods" through both physical (Why isn't he visible etc) and Philosophical (Why is there evil etc) that proves that there is no god, and even IF there was (there isn't) he is such a malevolent PoS that worshipping him is pointless.

Just because you don't see it as a belief doesn't mean that it's not one. Using the word "belief" to describe your feelings on a subject doesn't mean that you accept other beliefs as legitimate, either.

Also, those things you mentioned don't prove anything about the existence of a god, or lack thereof (I'm referring to your physical and philosophical "proof"). The only thing they prove is that you are consistently unable to wrap your mind around what are admittedly somewhat complex theological concepts, and at least consider and entertain them on an intellectual level, even if you don't accept them.


And personally, I'm all about free speech and freedom of expression. I think you should be able to say anything and print basically anything, even if it is offensive and you shouldn't say it or print it, in the interest of being a nice person. The only thing I can think of that should be illegal are things like child pornography (hopefully we all agree on that, at least).

dogma wrote:

Fifty wrote:I was not aiming at you in particular, but this whole thread has reached the point of being pointless. You and I are quite clearly, for want of a better term, "strongly atheist". We are not going to convince people to join us in this thread. Not least because of the fact that, no matter what their conscious selves beleive, they have no logical basis fo their beliefs for us to challenge.

Sweet, sweet irony.

Is it ironic because no-one is going to convince Gwar! and I of the logic of their belief in the supernatural either?

Or do you find irony in what I wrote about religious belief having no basis in logic?

The simple facts are these;

1) Belief in God is a faith position which necessitates that someone maintain that position even in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.
2) That being the case, all that logic can achieve is people justifying their beliefs to themselves for their own comfort.

If you could demonstrate that there must be a God (which some people believe is possible, by generally using quite shoddy reasoning by analogy, or occasionally quite sophisticated, but nevertheless flawed logical argument) then you would have moved from belief to empirical knowledge. Once you reach that position, believing in God becomes like believing in tables.

For my own part, I am absolutely certain that the reality in which we live can be explained without resorting to supernatural forces. Thus I can safely say I have a 100% absence of belief in God. However, I also go further and actively disbelieve in God. I do not just "not believe in God"; I believe there is no God. However, my disbelief in God only comes with 99.99% certain as I cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that he does exist, desite him not being needed to explain anything.

My next statement is even stronger. Based on the monotheistic gods in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic spectrum, there is a sense that God demands certain behaviours and/or worship. No God that makes such demands is worthy of my worship or adherence to his rules, and as a point of principle, even if I did have knowledge of his existence, I'd not worship him. I lead a good life due to my own belief that we need no God to add meaning to our lives; we can give it that meaning ourselves and be no less meaningful for it. Any God who would punish me for the life I have led and am leading just because I haven't doffed my cap and dropped to my knee for him like a peasant being passed by his noble lord doesn't deserve my regard. If I am wrong and it turns out that there is a God, and that he is kind and benevolent, then he will hopefully let me into heaven/paradise/valhalla anyway for the life I have led. If that is how it works out, I will be truly, genuinely glad to have been wrong all my life. Just because I want there to be a heaven though, it doesn't mean it is true or that I am going to believe in it.

Hordini wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And I do not see it as a belief. Belief implies that there is some sort of acceptance of other "beliefs" as legitimate. I KNOW there are no "gods" through both physical (Why isn't he visible etc) and Philosophical (Why is there evil etc) that proves that there is no god, and even IF there was (there isn't) he is such a malevolent PoS that worshipping him is pointless.

Just because you don't see it as a belief doesn't mean that it's not one. Using the word "belief" to describe your feelings on a subject doesn't mean that you accept other beliefs as legitimate, either.

Also, those things you mentioned don't prove anything about the existence of a god, or lack thereof (I'm referring to your physical and philosophical "proof"). The only thing they prove is that you are consistently unable to wrap your mind around what are admittedly somewhat complex theological concepts, and at least consider and entertain them on an intellectual level, even if you don't accept them.


And personally, I'm all about free speech and freedom of expression. I think you should be able to say anything and print basically anything, even if it is offensive and you shouldn't say it or print it, in the interest of being a nice person. The only thing I can think of that should be illegal are things like child pornography (hopefully we all agree on that, at least).

Even in the USA, Freedom of Speech is not protection against libel, incitement to riot, treasonous correspondence, fraud, threatening the life of the President, and so on. I don't know about racist speech, blasphemy and other 'ism' type speech. There is an overlap or conflict between some aspects of Freedom of Speech as a basic human right and other basic rights such as freedom of religion.

If you are going to be downright insulting, you should be charged. State your views. Prefferbly to someone who is ready or WANTS to hear it. And don't be TFG while doing so.

What is the big problem? You can even state your views in court against the acusation? If you're an attention seeker/troll (ahem, Gwar) then you've got the attention.

Fifty wrote:

dogma wrote:

Fifty wrote:I was not aiming at you in particular, but this whole thread has reached the point of being pointless. You and I are quite clearly, for want of a better term, "strongly atheist". We are not going to convince people to join us in this thread. Not least because of the fact that, no matter what their conscious selves beleive, they have no logical basis fo their beliefs for us to challenge.

Sweet, sweet irony.

Is it ironic because no-one is going to convince Gwar! and I of the logic of their belief in the supernatural either?

Or do you find irony in what I wrote about religious belief having no basis in logic?

The simple facts are these;

1) Belief in God is a faith position which necessitates that someone maintain that position even in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.
2) That being the case, all that logic can achieve is people justifying their beliefs to themselves for their own comfort.

If you could demonstrate that there must be a God (which some people believe is possible, by generally using quite shoddy reasoning by analogy, or occasionally quite sophisticated, but nevertheless flawed logical argument) then you would have moved from belief to empirical knowledge. Once you reach that position, believing in God becomes like believing in tables.

For my own part, I am absolutely certain that the reality in which we live can be explained without resorting to supernatural forces. Thus I can safely say I have a 100% absence of belief in God. However, I also go further and actively disbelieve in God. I do not just "not believe in God"; I believe there is no God. However, my disbelief in God only comes with 99.99% certain as I cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that he does exist, desite him not being needed to explain anything.

My next statement is even stronger. Based on the monotheistic gods in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic spectrum, there is a sense that God demands certain behaviours and/or worship. No God that makes such demands is worthy of my worship or adherence to his rules, and as a point of principle, even if I did have knowledge of his existence, I'd not worship him. I lead a good life due to my own belief that we need no God to add meaning to our lives; we can give it that meaning ourselves and be no less meaningful for it. Any God who would punish me for the life I have led and am leading just because I haven't doffed my cap and dropped to my knee for him like a peasant being passed by his noble lord doesn't deserve my regard. If I am wrong and it turns out that there is a God, and that he is kind and benevolent, then he will hopefully let me into heaven/paradise/valhalla anyway for the life I have led. If that is how it works out, I will be truly, genuinely glad to have been wrong all my life. Just because I want there to be a heaven though, it doesn't mean it is true or that I am going to believe in it.

Couldn't have put it better. Although I did think I put it pretty well, a couple pages ago...

Even Nihilists have a belief, which is I suppose, about as ironic as you can get.

garret wrote:I never been a big proponent of free speech.

Isn't it ironic then that you are allowed to say because you have a right to free speech.

Gwar! wrote:And I do not see it as a belief. Belief implies that there is some sort of acceptance of other "beliefs" as legitimate. I KNOW there are no "gods" through both physical (Why isn't he visible etc) and Philosophical (Why is there evil etc) that proves that there is no god, and even IF there was (there isn't) he is such a malevolent PoS that worshipping him is pointless.

Gwar, you cannot possibly KNOW that there is no god. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know for a fact that there is or is not a god. The fact that there is evil in the world is not proof of the absence of a god. There might be an extremely sadistic god out there. And just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's there. Can you see gravity? Can you see an atom?

As for the 'why is there evil' thing, I personally believe that God does not have a direct influence in the world. We're responsible for our own actions.

@ Cheese do you believe that God knows everything?

Because if God does know everything then he knows everything that a person will do when he creates them and if he knows this then why would he create terrorists? Why would he create murderers, serial killers, or suicide bombers?