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Canonness Rory wrote:I once saw a daemons vs daemons game, it pretty much all came down to who got the first turn and who scattered better.

OMG! I didn't even think of that combination.

So, the game starts with an empty battlefield and then... DAEMONS EVERYWHERE! Yet they have no one to fight as they're the only side on the table. Hmm... but then, during the opposing player's turn, MOAR DAEMONZ!!!!!2 And now they fight. Lucky that both Daemon Legions decided to show up right at the exact same moment at the exact same spot, otherwise there would'a been no fightin'!

And before anyone says "It could be a Daemon world in the Warp", think to yourself - why do Daemons need to be summoned on a Daemon world in the Warp. It makes no sense.

Maybe there was a weak point in the warp and their already taking-place war spilled out into the mortal world.

Actually, daemon on daemon is about the easiest to justify. It's just a weak warp barrier.

Redbeard wrote:Maybe there was a weak point in the...

Demon codex designer's head?

That 2x demon example also demonstrates the absurdity of the army. Rather than slinging hate (which is pretty fun in threads like this), how about a new approach...

Perhaps the Demon Codex is actually BAD because it has such an obvious Achilles heel?

Since the demon codex always uses the same settup with demonic assault, as we established that can be a drawback.

Wouldn't it be fair then to say this also makes the army one dimensional? How fun would a game be against say, 2 fleet officers, or 2 Inquistors, or against other demons, essentially any combo that leaves the game really slanted. Other armies would have some options.

I still say, it's a dumb concept, and not just for thematic, fluff, or nostalgic reasons, but for empirical, game play issues.

P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

Gwar! wrote:

Tyras wrote:Ya can't run the rhino open topped and fire the flame from the fire point?

<(^-^)>

Flamer templates may NEVER be placed so it touches a Friendly Model, if you cannot place it without touching a friendly model, it may not fire. Look at the hatch on the rhino, it is slightly "in", as such, you can never place the template touching the fire point and NOT touching the hull of the rhino.

Hate to whine... but we talked this one through tonight...

How does the Heavy Flamer turret on a chimera fire? You place the flamer template starting at the end of the gun, turret, whatever. The narrow end, however, will always be over the model's hull. Does that mean that gun I swapped my multi-las for cant fire?

(also, hull HF on some models, we think may not reach beyond the end of the hull. Also, all the turret-mount flamers, and the chem-cannon on that hellhound variant, can fire 360 degrees, so backwards. Dont tell me you can ninja that starting beyond the hull.)

So... yes, rules design fail, but... what happens?

Augustus wrote:
Perhaps the Demon Codex is actually BAD because it has such an obvious Achilles heel?

You're welcome to your opinion, I don't agree. I think it's a reasonably good codex. It's certainly not among the most powerful, but it's not a pushover either. I haven't seen any round one 'ard boyz results this year in which a daemon army won - I've seen plenty with guard and marines and even tau though.

Since the demon codex always uses the same settup with demonic assault, as we established that can be a drawback.

Wouldn't it be fair then to say this also makes the army one dimensional? How fun would a game be against say, 2 fleet officers, or 2 Inquistors, or against other demons, essentially any combo that leaves the game really slanted. Other armies would have some options.

Well, playing against the "anti-daemon" stuff is obviously going to be less fun. But many armies have weaknesses that can be exploited. Orks have issues with AV14 and templates.

Honestly, I think the dumbest codex at the moment is the Marine codex. There is zero reason to field a marine army without a special character leading it.

P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

I'd have no problems with that. I started my daemon army because I had a bunch of daemons in my 4th ed Emperor's Children army - and I suspect I'm not alone in this. I'd love to be able to have my marines get the icons in position and land the daemons without risk. Like most chaos players, I would like to have my proper, named daemons to run with my marines instead of generic greater and lesser crap. But that's not a condemnation of the daemon codex, it's a condemnation of GWs choice to split the armies.

Splitting the armies was somewhat fail.

Each book in and of itself, ignoring the old codexes, are quite good, barring the annhiliation of fluff.

Augustus wrote:
P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

Ah, and here we get to the heart of the matter. The codex itself is fine, you just want to have it still be a part of C:SM rather than a stand alone.

Is that such a bad thing?

I got 1st place in round 1 with demons Red =)

Still playing the mostly nurgle army.

I think they look really cool, but I agree there is quite a bit of cheese to an army that can literally wipe half of your crap off the board in the first turn.

If you deploy badly, and my rolls end amazingly well, my Guard can do that to some armies...

Very rare to find an army that cant possibly kill 50% of the opponent's models in one turn.

EDIT: Assuming awful deployment and/or running right into their killzones

Redbeard wrote:Actually, daemon on daemon is about the easiest to justify. It's just a weak warp barrier.

I have no problem with Daemon vs Daemon and, as you said, it is the easiest to justify as the Chaos Gods are constantly fighting each other. But why are they summoned in? Wouldn't a Daemon vs Daemon throw-down just involve Daemons running at each other across the twisted bloodplanes, bonespires and sesspits of the Warp?

They're just a conceptually flawed army created to sell minatures and an 'army' to people who already had an army. For those two massive reasons, they epic fail. Doesn't matter how powerful they are - they could be twice as powerful or half as powerful as they are now - wouldn't make any difference. They're an unnecessary army that should not be in the game.

The demon army can try to DS right by you on turn one. However, he still scatters, so odds are good that he'll roll on the mishap table for at least one unit that tries that.

And boon of mutation really isn't that good. I'll take warptime on my demon prince every time (for CSM). I'm pretty sure that sisters get their save against boon of mutation. I don't have the WH codex. Isn't it a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers?

And yeah, all demons of tzeentch are resilient in melee, even if they don't do much damage. That 4+ invul is hard to beat.

Ahhhh... not really. Horrors, for example, have about the same survivability as a Tau Fire Warrior without much added offensive ability.

Flamers are about as fighty as a Space Marine Scout.

Tzeentch have unusually good resistance to anti-tank weaponry (well, not really if we agree that most units have a 4+ cover save) but die to volume of fire/attacks just like anything else.

Noisy_Marine wrote:And boon of mutation really isn't that good. I'll take warptime on my demon prince every time (for CSM). I'm pretty sure that sisters get their save against boon of mutation. I don't have the WH codex. Isn't it a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers?

Please see my earlier post; Gift of Mutation is a CSM psychic power, against which psychic defenses work; Boon of Mutation is a straight-up shooting attack; psychic defenses don't help any more than they do against being hit by a lascannon.

I played a game of Planetstrike last night where the opposing player made a 2000 point force (using the Planetstrike force org. chart) using both Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines. He was the attacker, and my cousin and I used two 1,000 point Space Marines armies as the defenders.

The Daemons and CSM weren't too overpowered working together and if the guy wanted to field the two together in a regular match, I wouldn't protest. Obviously some rules need to be addressed in a situation like that (not in Planetstrike), but yeah...I don't think people who want to run them together in casual games should feel hog-tied.