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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Majesticgoat wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

Damn. What are there powers classed as then? Kind of like guard orders? Oh, well, my sistas ARE kind of Witch HUnters, leave deamons to Grey Knights and such. Also, transports. Since nothing (much) that he shoots in the first turn will be seriously dangerous to vehichle, get your transports ready then charge out, disembark and let loose. It is really in close combat that vehichles get hurt by deamons.

Its a bit beyond what people are discussing now but I still would love to answer. These are classified as Daemonic Gifts in the Chaos Daemons codex. Right in the explaination of what these gifts are it states that these are the equivalent of the weapons and wargear used by mere mortals, and then in brackets it notes that these are not psychic powers.

Breath of Chaos and Boon of Mutation are the bane of my Adepta Sororita force..

Somnicide wrote:Just to make sure, here, they did only wound on a 4+ right? From your terror of them it sounds almost as if he laid down the templates and just had you pic up the models (granted, there were 7 of them, I suppose - which cost about the same as a land raider redeemer which would have had the exact same effect).

When my cousin plays the daemons, he usually averages 5-7 hits with each template...he then scores about 2-4 wounds with each hit...with a unit of three, that's 6-8 wounds. That leaves two space marines out of a ten man squad...that's pretty devastating if you ask me.

Maybe he just rolls well...but it seems that I lose more than survive every time.

Yes they are quite vicious. But they cost 35 points each naked and are generally a one shot wonder, not surviving the counterstroke. But when they work...choice.

The LR Redeemer can only bring one of those templates to bear on a unit at a time, not seven. Besides the number of templates it's the fact that they AP the marines. It was shocking that a unit could drop down in front of me and have such a devestating effect on the same turn they came in.

I think it's cheesy, it's an opinion.

Demons are practically made to take out Deathwing. You have no bodies to meatshield and no vehicles to hide behind. Do reserves whenever possible and hit him by going second, else when he drops the shooters he has a good chance of deviating badly.

Deathwing can take a Land Raider for every unit of Terminators, and liberally mix Terminators with Dreadnoughts, so the idea that they have no vehicles to hide behind is bunk.

We're talking about his existing list Nurglitch.

Frazzled wrote:We're talking about his existing list Nurglitch.

No DW in there though . Ravenwing, Assault marines, and a tactical squad to fill out the remaining points with a trrop choice to try and sit on an objective.

Sorry when I think DA I think mmm delicious. Terminators mmm. bikes are similar. A proper demon list can be a the scissors to a DA hammer. inveresely you have the ability to bring multiple LRs which are much harder for demons to crack.

Tyras wrote:It was shocking that a unit could drop down in front of me and have such a devestating effect on the same turn they came in.

I think it's cheesy, it's an opinion.

Flamers have been doing this for a couple of editions now. My primary opponent plays chaos and through all of 4th and 5th I knew that it would cost me a unit once the flamers landed. Then I'd shoot them up and move on.

I think you have the game plan now. Alter the list a bit to protect the HQ, work on some deployment strategies and improve as a player. One more thing that can help which hasn't really been discussed so far: buy or borrow every codex and read it. It is so helpful to know what your opponent can do and it makes it easier to call them out if they should make a mistake.

I think Tyras had the right plan earlier in the thread.

Quit playing against demons, it's a terrible 1 dimensional melee army.

Ignores all mission setups
Entirely Invulnerable
Entirely Fearless
Entirely Deep Strike
Entirely Eternal Warrior
No Vehicles at all
Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.

No saves from wind of chaos?
Spawn kill?
Musicians in units?
Discs of tzeentch have meltabombs?
...

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

Interesting thread, with good points, but I say, unless you're forced to, in a bad tourney match up, I wouldn't bother giving them a game.

Frazzled wrote:Sorry when I think DA I think mmm delicious. Terminators mmm. bikes are similar. A proper demon list can be a the scissors to a DA hammer. inveresely you have the ability to bring multiple LRs which are much harder for demons to crack.

This is true, but it wasn't a list formulated to fight against demons. Had we been able to deploy across the long boardedge to where he couldn't tie down my army as effectively I would have crushed him, even with his cheating. I think the list has some nice utility and power. Then again, my complaints were never about losing. It was about the absolute madness of what the demon army is capable of.

Augustus, I'll play an opponent who runs demons. I just won't play the guy who fudges his ranges so he can safely deepstrike while still hitting me with boon then cheat again to icon his flamers in within inches of my guys on the same turn the icon deepstruck, then cheat yet again with using flamer templates that touch his own bases. I'll also have a list better suited with dealing with the unique challenges a demon army can bring to the table. I do think they're cheesy, but I won't turn down an honest match.

Augustus is right, it is better to only play the army that is an exact mirror of your own. Anything different is bad.

Augustus wrote:

Quit playing against demons, it's a terrible 1 dimensional melee army.

Ignores all mission setups

Which is both a help and a hindrance.

Entirely Invulnerable

And yet mostly only 5+ saves. So it's good against plasma, and crap against bolters...

Entirely Fearless

Which seems good, until you lose half a unit to combat resolution. You're not going to scare daemons away shooting at them, but you can kill them in droves if you hit them with the right unit.

Entirely Deep Strike

Again, as much a hindrance as a benefit. In 4th ed, this was a huge advantage, because your opponent had to deploy. In 5th ed, this is a definite drawback that has to be overcome against a competent opponent. They keep everything off the table, force you to drop first, and then they control how they want to face you.

Entirely Eternal Warrior

I'll certainly grant you that this is always an advantage for the daemon player.

No Vehicles at all

Except the soul grinder.

Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

Wait, didn't you just say it's a terrible one-dimensional shooting army?

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.


No saves from wind of chaos?
Spawn kill?
Musicians in units?
Discs of tzeentch have meltabombs?

Cause meltabombs are fantasy elements? Seriously now, you're overreacting a bit here. I'll agree with you that musicians in units is pretty silly in 40k, but they made the models for the fantasy side of things, and wanted to make sure they had some use. Marines and guard have banners that add +1 to their combat res, are they also fantasy armies?

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

I've got three chaos daemon armies (tzeentch, slaanesh and khorne) and I'm working on nurgle next. As Somnicide said earlier, the first time you play against daemons, you'll probably lose. They're different, and force you to adjust how you play against them. But, they're certainly not unbeatable, and the more experience my friends have gotten playing against them, the tighter the games have gotten. You say the game is always the same, I don't know where you get that from. There are many other armies out there that have much more of a "this is always the same" feel than daemons do. As a daemon player, I like the fact that no two games are ever the same. I might go into a game with the same strategy (these guys first, then these guys) but the chaos gods enjoy taunting me and things never quite go as planned.

Unlike playing eldar, or orks, or sisters, or any of my other armies, where I set my guys up exactly how I want and can repeat the exact same game plan over and over. Talk about always the same, the marines get in the rhinos and drive forward 12", trying to wall off objectives...

Augustus wrote:Entirely Invulnerable

Oh heavens, looks like its time to polish up the psycannons.

I hate Chaos Daemons as well, but for a lot of different reasons than those posted in this thread already.

Well, I also hate them because most of the models look like something youd find in a toilet after a high fiber breakfast.

I'm sure the players of that army hate them because so much of it is metal.

Meh, I actually like most of the models (granted, I have plaguebearers going back from the newest to the original versions). It would be cool if everything was plastic, but every army can't be like IG or SM ;-)

I don't mind the models. The Daemonettes are crap, but even the Bloodletters have grown on me. I prefer the metal ones, but the new one sare ok.

My dislike for the Daemon Codex stems more from conceptual and fluff-based reasons.

I like a lot of the models, and dislike others. I love the modelling opportunities afforded with the chariots and big daemons. Between greater daemons and daemon princes, I've got about 20 MCs converted and painted, with no two identical. Add the Forgeworld Daemons (new daemon princes are sweet, and greater daemons) and ultraforge daemons... I like painting the big baddies.

The smaller daemons - eh. Not a real fan of the bloodletters, horrors are meh, the new daemonettes are awful, and plaguebearers are ok for pussbags. But you can't run an army with just the big guys :(

Yeah, the new Daemonettes are fugly. They don't scream 'Slaanesh' at all. The old succubus-style ones were better because of their huge br- uh, claws.

Yeah. That's it.

Horrors are a nicely-done model. They look nice and chaotic.

I like the new daemonettes in person but they photo for crap.

Redbeard, I liked your post, I can see your perspective. I also understand that tastes vary and why an army is cool to someone can have a lot of different causes. I thought I'd answer a few points though:

No Vehicles at all

Except the soul grinder.

Which is really just a big dreadnought, and in effect, like another demon prince, with an AV, and some blast... No transports, no tanks, no speed, very much like a WHFB army pasted into WH40k. Sorry but I don't count that abomination as a tank... It basicly plays like an oversize carnifex.

Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

Wait, didn't you just say it's a terrible one-dimensional shooting army?

It is a 1 dimensional melee army, is what I said, to be more specific, it feels like an all melee army, and the writers said, oh wait we should invent some ways for these to shoot, so lets:

...paste a soul grinder in there, invent winds of chaos, make flamers shoot tons, pass out lascannons to a few units, and uh, throw in meltabombs for good measure, is there any reason to explain why a disc of tzeentch can chew through a tank like a meltabomb from any perspective? fluff, balance, history, theme or otherwise?

"Besides, we better give this army an antitank jetbike so they can chase down fast tanks." It's a brutally obvious bandaid rule.

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

...certainly not unbeatable, ...There are many other armies out there that have much more of a "this is always the same" feel than daemons do.

As a daemon player...I like the fact that no two games are ever...things never quite go as planned.

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

That's why demons are always the same. There are other armies with sameness, I agree, and I don't like them either, probably necrons being the worst...

Tastes will vary, I of course recognize that people have different things that make them like an army, artistically, I could easily see the appeal of a demon army, some awesome powerful visual and abstract themes there! But IMO, playwise and story wise demons were always part of a chaos marine or possibly a rebel LATD army, they don't come by themselves. Splitting them out, has made a counter fluff army, demons need hosts and followers...

To top that off, playing against them is so unique as to break the game's basic mechanics, therefore IMO, I don't care to do it. I hope the demon codex is depricated in 6th edition and Chaos Marine and Rebel armies get demons back as it should be.


EDIT:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate Chaos Daemons as well, but for a lot of different reasons than those posted in this thread already.

What reasons are those? Would you advise the OP not to play vs. demons?

I hate the stupid daemons, because its taken away the abilities from the original demons in the chaos marines army.

For example, the greater demon had 4 types, each with its ability. The bloodthirster for example had the ability to fly, and got an armour save...now it has no armor save and cant fly. Its a lesser demon on steroids...

The lesser demons are no better. The blood letters for example had armour too, they also had power wpns (the main reason i bought them ^^). Now though, they are just like cultists from the alpha legion (in the old codex). It sucks!

There are spawns, but they have no armour save, so they are screwed. And would it be so bad if the demons didnt get destroyed if no one is available to summon on the second turn.

Thats something else...the demons of all type have to come out on the 2nd turn! What if the hosts you have for a greater demon are all at one end of the field, or 18" away from a load of auto & lascannons. It sucks also.

Would it hurt that much if they could update the chaos marine codex with a soulgrinder....pretty please with an ork head on top. ^^

There my first few thoughts anyway, i have more after playing with my under performing demons again.

Complainer out...

I dont like playing against demons ... wait nm I play demons.

Every army is different, and sadly to say you have one of the weakest army books that can be found right now. DA are good at very little and are more expensive than many of the other space marine books.

On the flip side Demons are one of the best books out there. They are a competitive army and even the worst lists can do very well due to the power each unit brings.

The list you played against was not a power list, heck it was not even near cheese status.

It sounds like you played a new army you knew little about, it threw you some curveballs, and you got a lil 2 upset at the outcome. I say you dust off, get back up, and try again. Going the way of "I wont play you anymore" is just plain silly. All you are going to do with that is give yourself less experince when you finally do face them again in a tournament setting ... or you could just hand them the game.

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

Wait you mean just like drop pod marines, deathwing, and Grey Knights?

Frazzled wrote:

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

Wait you mean just like drop pod marines, deathwing, and Grey Knights?

Oh no, all the armies you mentioned can choose to deploy their guys when that's advantageous. Even pod marines can deploy in a gunline and just drop empty pods to contest enemy objectives if they want to. Daemons get no such choice. They cannot use a normal deployment, even when doing so would be to their advantage. Totally different.

Tyras wrote:The title gives the gist of the post. I don't have the codex so please excuse the more generic terms I might use to describe the army I fought.

Having a unit of Six Flamers with a Blue Scribe(?) along with a unit of Horrors with two special guys that can turn models into chaos spawn drop down in front of your army and turn your HQ into a chaos spawn and AP and an entire unit of assault marines in one turn with a ton of flamer template attacks and an obscene amount of shooting from the horrors is just great. We are legion allowing the unit to split their fire amongst multiple units and the blue scribe mimicing special attacks for extra chaos spawns is just cheesy. To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment

+1 for: Allied Daemon Hunter Inquisitor lord w/ 2 mystics and gun servitors allowing you to shoot at deepstrikers or nominate a friendly unit to do so...

+1 for: allied Inquisitor(elite) w/ mystics for more of above

Personally i think Chaos Demon is a pretty cool guy...
he fights aliens and doesnt afraid of anything!

oh gak ive got that wrong havent i...

I think having armies like Daemons, Drop Marines and DA is excellent, it forces people to think differently, to deploy in a different way.

People that complain daemons are broken as they have a different set up need to realise that it's not just daemons that do this, and that they need to think of new and different set ups.

IF you think daemons deploying nothing and then all turning up, how do you feel about white scars with outflanking armies, including LRC's? Would you refuse to play them as they set up in a different way?

If you think it's unfair we don't have to deploy normally, have you ever considered how tough it is to set up the waves! Having to get a balance between the two but always favour the one you want, and then have to adapt untill the other stuff arrives in dribs and drabs!

I think many of you who are so against daemons should try playing them, it gives a unique insight into the trials and tribulations we daemon players have to cope with when playing and learn that it's not just a one dimensional army it's so much more