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The title gives the gist of the post. I don't have the codex so please excuse the more generic terms I might use to describe the army I fought.

Having a unit of Six Flamers with a Blue Scribe(?) along with a unit of Horrors with two special guys that can turn models into chaos spawn drop down in front of your army and turn your HQ into a chaos spawn and AP and an entire unit of assault marines in one turn with a ton of flamer template attacks and an obscene amount of shooting from the horrors is just great. We are legion allowing the unit to split their fire amongst multiple units and the blue scribe mimicing special attacks for extra chaos spawns is just cheesy. To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

I Don't know what the Khorne demons can do because he kept them on his objective on his board edge. He had demonettes and some kind of wierd Slanesh creatures the demonettes wiped out a six man bike squad with rending, at init 5 so no returns. The other Slanesh things were'nt very effective, just really fast. He had some khorne dog things but I was able to shoot them up pretty good with assault cannons and heavy bolters from speeders.

I guess the thing that irks me the most is the chaos spawn thing. I'll pick out your HQ model, shoot the boone of mutation twice with the horror guys then mimic that with the Blue scribe for a third shot. Aww your HQ guy is t4 and one of those dice rolled a five he's a spawn now no save no invul, doesn't matter that he has three wounds or can't be insta killed, he's a spawn. 140 points gone before his first movement phase, and a chaos spawn in the deployment zone now. The Boone of mutation can even be used if the unit is locked in close combat! Grr what were they thinking when that wrote that crap in? That and so much other stuff getting template AP'd from the flamers and the Soulgrinder DSing into range of my deployment on the first turn before I could effectively spread them out. It's hard to deploy when the enemy DS's their entire army and screens their shooters with CC troops that out init ya. <frustrated>

I might be wrong but I play with a guy who uses chaos demons and the first round they cannot be deployed since the whole unit has to be DS in. So if he really is pulling a first turn DS onto your deployment zone something is wrong. Again, I am also not familiar with the codex.

I think he hast to split his force numerically equal in half and choose one as wave one and one as wave to deploy on turn two based on a roll to appease their god.

As for the chaos breath and chaos spawn creater I hear ya. My Tau friend had to resort to using AP 2 weapons to negate feel no pain on a Nurgle theme and I have to use reserve helicopters and kommandos to counter the chaos spawning prince. As for the flame templates since again I play as orks I feel your pain. It is devestating as hell the only fortunate part is they go down pretty easy...after the fact of course.

Half their army comes in on turn one, all DSing.

Frenzied Potato wrote:I might be wrong but I play with a guy who uses chaos demons and the first round they cannot be deployed since the whole unit has to be DS in. So if he really is pulling a first turn DS onto your deployment zone something is wrong. Again, I am also not familiar with the codex.

I think he hast to split his force numerically equal in half and choose one as wave one and one as wave to deploy on turn two based on a roll to appease their god.

You're totally wrong. 1/2 the force comes in on the first turn, 2nd half is in reserve and comes in as normal.

Your right it is called Daemonic Assault. I wasn't "totally wrong" as you put it. They still split their force in half and have to roll to see which side could deploy normally during the first turn following deep strike rules and the remaining units are deployed in following turns following the reserve / deep strike rules.

You see that corner, deploy in it. Cheap stuff in the front, expensive and hurty stuff in the back.

You know what Daemons hate? Walkers. Their infantry squads have no fist, charge a walker in and laugh as you grind away the squad while the daemons bounce off you. They have to dedicate a Prince, Greater Daemon or Grinder if they want to save the squad.

You know what Daemons really really hate? Mystics.

Flamers come in two flavors, deployed back to harass you later or deployed in your face. If they go straight for early kills, slap some templates on the unit since they'll still be bunched up. Also make sure he's not firing all the flame templates, anyway they angle their drop Flamers can only fire 3 templates.
Assault the Horrors.
Melta the Grinder.
Shoot the Daemonettes with small arms.
Shoot the Bloodletters with Heavy Bolters, Asscans, pie, scatterlasers or charge them first with a dedicated assault unit.
Best counter to Seekers (the fast assaulty things) and Khorne dogs is to stand on the second story of a ruin.

That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

Best way to hurt deamons is to either hope that they scatter bad, put all your stuff in one area (Aka Planetstrike style) or do anything you can to cuase a lot of wounds. Doesn't have to be high strength low Ap hits, just has to wound them. A 5+ invo is not going to save THAT many.

Or put all your units in reserve, so that he has to deep strike half of his army without knowing where you'll be, and then take advantage of the fact that most of his stuff will be short-ranged, so bring your stuff in away from his...

And put your HQ in a tank of some sort as well. Thats just a smart thing to do anyways

avantgarde wrote:You see that corner, deploy in it. Cheap stuff in the front, expensive and hurty stuff in the back.

You know what Daemons hate? Walkers. Their infantry squads have no fist, charge a walker in and laugh as you grind away the squad while the daemons bounce off you. They have to dedicate a Prince, Greater Daemon or Grinder if they want to save the squad.

You know what Daemons really really hate? Mystics.

Flamers come in two flavors, deployed back to harass you later or deployed in your face. If they go straight for early kills, slap some templates on the unit since they'll still be bunched up. Also make sure he's not firing all the flame templates, anyway they angle their drop Flamers can only fire 3 templates.
Assault the Horrors.
Melta the Grinder.
Shoot the Daemonettes with small arms.
Shoot the Bloodletters with Heavy Bolters, Asscans, pie, scatterlasers or charge them first with a dedicated assault unit.
Best counter to Seekers (the fast assaulty things) and Khorne dogs is to stand on the second story of a ruin.

Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase. The horrors and the flamers were assaulted, but for being as shooty as they were I would have figured they wouldn't be so resilient in CC. T4 with a 4+ invuln with the Mark of Tzeetch. They managed to tie me up until the demonettes could saunter over and say hello at I5, rending all the way.

When you say mystics do you mean a Librarian? It's the only thing in my army that I can really relate to a mystic. If so why? I was wondering if I had taken a librarian if I could Psychic hood the stupid boone of mutation, but I was told all of his stuff was shooting attacks, that's why he didn't have to make perils of the warp rolls, although if the boone was a shooting attack I don't see how it could be used in CC like he did. I was so frustrated with the cheese by that point I just rolled without debate.

I never saw the Bloodletters in action the Skulltaker and all those guys sat back on his objective in his corner of the table while th erest of his army came in in or near my table quarter. The Khorne dogs got shot up before they could assault. He had them on another objective and my two speeders shot them off of it. The fast assaulty things I can't really gauge either because he had absolutely horrible rolls versus the assault marines and were butchered that turn (only two of them in his army), so while they seemed ineffective I don't know what they could have done had they actually hit anything.

I lost alot of my army's mobility from essentially being penned up in my quarter. I had to decide whether to deal with the incredibly shooty units in the flamers, Horrors and Soulgrinder or try to break out and make for other objectives. With as much damages as they had caused in their first turn (about a third of my army went to that big fortress monestary in the sky) I had to deal with them. Any attempt at a break out would just be inviting further devestating shooting phases. It was just a frustrating game. Alot of "They can do what!?" and ""You mean to tell me that none of those attacks allows for an armor save?" was happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:Or put all your units in reserve, so that he has to deep strike half of his army without knowing where you'll be, and then take advantage of the fact that most of his stuff will be short-ranged, so bring your stuff in away from his...

Next time I will, and while the army I brought this time was assault based (Ravenwing with bikes for troops and three assualt squads) I'll have to have a shooty list to swap out to in the event that I'm facing demons. Being able to template his DS'd unites would have been nice, but the Army that I brought had none of that

You might want to look closer at his rule book then, at least for his army list. Because usually when you ask those questions, often during a game, something is fishy

KingCracker wrote:And put your HQ in a tank of some sort as well. Thats just a smart thing to do anyways

I was informed that the Boone of Mutation does not require line of sight, it can just target a model within range. I don't know if that's true, but if it is couldn't they just go, I target the guy in the transport? Also the HQ he targetd was an Interrogator Chaplain with a Jump Pack, no transport for him.

Tyras wrote:I don't know if that's true, but if it is couldn't they just go, I target the guy in the transport?

Psychic powers cannot be used on units inside of transports unless the psyker himself is embarked in transport with the unit in question, so if you mount up your HQ's in vehicles he cannot transform them into spawn.

edit: just noticed the bit about the Interrogator Chaplaian w/ Jump Pack. Not much you can do but hope for the best then. I think the power also has a very short range of around 6" (sorry - can't locate my daemon codex atm).

also, the mystics mentioned earlier in the thread were regarding taking an allied inquisitor from the deamonhunters codex w/ 2 mystics. If you look up the rules, you'll figure out how much of a benefit that unit can be against deep striking armies

Although, Dark Angels may have some special rule where they don't ally with others. Is that still in effect?

Tyras wrote:To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

Tyras wrote:Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase.

If this was the same game, he was cheating. You can only DS onto an icon that was on the table at the beginning of the turn. If he was using Icon incest that might explain why he could drop the good stuff in so close on the first turn. Did he even roll army halves?

Mystics are a retinue option for Inquisitors. If you take two of them they can nominate a unit within 12" to take free shots at any daemon or deep striking unit entering within 4d6 inches of the Inquisitor. You can do this for every daemon unit in range.

Daemon shooting is actual shooting so hoods don't do anything, also Boon of Mutation is a ranged weapon that can be used in CC. It still requires a physical model to target.

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

avantgarde wrote:

Tyras wrote:To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

Tyras wrote:Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase.

If this was the same game, he was cheating. You can only DS onto an icon that was on the table at the beginning of the turn. If he was using Icon incest that might explain why he could drop the good stuff in so close on the first turn. Did he even roll army halves?

Mystics are a retinue option for Inquisitors. If you take two of them they can nominate a unit within 12" to take free shots at any daemon or deep striking unit entering within 4d6 inches of the Inquisitor. You can do this for every daemon unit in range.

Daemon shooting is actual shooting so hoods don't do anything, also Boon of Mutation is a ranged weapon that can be used in CC. It still requires a physical model to target.

Well the icon thing is one confirmed fudge then.

Hmm I have a couple inquisitor models from my wife's army, and if I'm gonna bring him is I might as well bring in the vindicare that can pick out guys, like the blue scribe. Can the unit nominated by the mystic be a vehicle? Can multiple mystics be taken to give multiple shots at his DSing guys?

I didn't actually have a target in a transport that he popped with boon, but when I talked about having putting him in a land raider so he wouldn't get taken out on the first turn he just laughed and said he didn't need line of sight so he could get him inside the transport as long as the transport was in range.

*As he drops in shoot the CENSORED out of him. Concentrate fire. Have speed bump troops or vehicles in front. Bolters are you friend as he doesn't have an armor save for most things.
*charge BL's before they charge you.
*Hide behind vehicles. If you have Landraiders you will have an advantage as mostly just big MCs can hit them.

Majesticgoat wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

Damn. What are there powers classed as then? Kind of like guard orders? Oh, well, my sistas ARE kind of Witch HUnters, leave deamons to Grey Knights and such. Also, transports. Since nothing (much) that he shoots in the first turn will be seriously dangerous to vehichle, get your transports ready then charge out, disembark and let loose. It is really in close combat that vehichles get hurt by deamons.

I didn't know about mystics until this mornin Frazzled lol. When he shoots after DSing in on his turn the damage is done at that point. He focused on the stregth of his units rather than the strengths of tactics. He dropped his shooty guys all down within 12 inches of my army so they were, for the most part, out of the battle in my next turn.

One of the reasons I am frustrated is that Demon players have the ability to drop on top of your army, while you're rather bunched up in a deployemt zone, or at the weekest point in your line if you have an entire board edge, and destroy so much in one turn. Before my first movement phase I had lost over a third of my army. A six man bike squad with the Ravenwing banner, a ten man assault squad, the Interrogator Chaplain attached to that squad, and a tactical squad. On top of that I had two chaos spawns in my deployment zone tying up units in CC.

It was a learning experience to be sure, but had it been any other army I would have trounced him. At the end of the game he only had the unit of Bloodletters with the Skull taker left on the field, I lost a three bike combat squad with an attack bike to the demonettes rending, but other than that I didn't lose another unit, in fact I only lost two more models. I was just so held up in my deployment zone and lost some key manuever units in that first fiasco of shooting that I couldn't get my last troop choice to an objective (I was one inch away from being within three inches) before turn six and the roll ended the game on turn five.

Next time I will have a demons list ready. It will include an inquisitor with mystics and an assassin to pick off the special characters and their insane abilities. I will deploy in reserve to better react to his initial deepstrikes, and it will have heavy support rather than a bunch of fast attack.

The list I brought wasn't tailored to fight a paticular army. It was supposed to be highly mobile and assault based. Ravenwing bikes and 30 Assault Marines. I believe it to be a strong list, I just have to play it better with reserves and not get tied up in my own deployment zone by armies that DS in on me.

Be sneaky, he can't use Boon of Mutation unless he has a spawn model to put in it's place

Shamfrit wrote:Be sneaky, he can't use Boon of Mutation unless he has a spawn model to put in it's place

As much as I love being the bearer of bad news... Wait nevermind

This is incorrect, the Power states "If the player using this gift has a Spawn Model", so the replacing with the model is optional. The Rest still happens with or without the model.

I didn't see your list Tyrus so don't know what is available.

But if he's shooty demons block or push off his shooters from deploying close. If you have rhinos do the rhino shield wall if he goes 2nd. Demon shooting is not good and you just use the same tactics you would against a regular deepstriker.

HQ

--Sammeal in his Land Speeder (AV14 Front and Side on a Speeder!)
Raven Wing Banner in Bike Squad #1
Apothecary upgrade in Bike Squad #1
245

--Interrogator Chaplain (Attached to Assault Squad #1)
Jump Pack
Plasma Pistol
Melta Bombs
160

Troops

--Raven Wing Attack Squadron (Bike Squad #1)
3 Additional Bikes
Power Weapon for SGT
2X Melta guns
Speeder with a heavy bolter (no option to upgrade to Multi Melta) and an Assault Cannon
355

--Raven Wing Attack Squadron (Bike Squad #2)
Attack Bike with Multi Melta
Power Weapon for SGT
Melta gun
195

--Tactical Squad
Plasma Gun
Rhino with Storm Bolter
145

Fast Attack

Assault Squad #1
5 additional Assault Marines
Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon and Melta Bombs for SGT
2X Plasma Pistols
300

Assault Squad #2 (Same as above)
300

Assalt Squad #3 (Same as above)
300

Ok, lots of high point troops. Yea if he breath of chaos's well etc then you're hosed, but its really random.

You should post this in the tactics section.

His list was Six flamers with the Blue Scribe (?)
A big unit of horrors with two special guys that did the boon of mutation
A big unit of demonettes
Two wierd Slaneesh horse scorpian looking things
A decent sized unit of khorne dogs
A big unit of Bloodletters with the Skulltaker
A smallish unit of Plaguebearers
and a Soulgrinder.

From what it seems everything was upgraded to the max.

Frankly that daemon army is rubbish imho.

Look, Daemons do well against MEQ as they have a few units which ignore armour saves!

Boon is a very very short range power, and not particularly usefull as well i'm quite surprised it's your biggest gripe, considering just how powerful things like blood crushers and GD's can be!

IF you want a good tactic, keep everything of the pitch, and come on from reserve, it negates a massive bonus of his army, as ravenwing you're able to outflank as well!, pick on his weakest point and don't get involved in clsoe combat!

When that can target HQ choices that give a unit or an army a special rule like Rites of Battle for an example or a standard bearer and turn them into a spawn to run amok in your deployment zone with no save, invuln or regard to the number of wounds they have it's kinda cheesy. The short range is hardly worth mentioning when he can deploy as close as a few inches away from your army on their first turn.

The Army might not have been a strong build, but that kinda emphasises my points. A poor player can go a long way with a broken army.

I'll have to get clarification on the outflanking. I get a scout move with the bikers, but I didn't see a mention of outflanking in the unit or Ravenwing special rules.

Don't get me wrong, I could have played better by coming in from reserves rather than have the army on the board and at the mercy of the demons DSing. But the strength of the demon units with their abilities and upgrades allow alot of forgiveness in using bad tactics or poor army builds while very little forgiveness for their opponents.

Tyras wrote:When that can target HQ choices that give a unit or an army a special rule like Rites of Battle for an example or a standard bearer and turn them into a spawn to run amok in your deployment zone with no save, invuln or regard to the number of wounds they have it's kinda cheesy. The short range is hardly worth mentioning when he can deploy as close as a few inches away from your army on their first turn.

The Army might not have been a strong build, but that kinda emphasises my points. A poor player can go a long way with a broken army.

So guard your HQ by putting him in terrain or surrounding him with other units. They can't then DS in because they either take Dangerous Terrain tests or Mishap.

Tyras wrote:Hmm I have a couple inquisitor models from my wife's army, and if I'm gonna bring him is I might as well bring in the vindicare that can pick out guys, like the blue scribe. Can the unit nominated by the mystic be a vehicle? Can multiple mystics be taken to give multiple shots at his DSing guys?

Yes and yes, but you need a second Inquisitor with mystics to shoot again. The second Inquistor will take up an elite slot (the first one an HQ) so it's that or the Vindicare.

Tyras wrote:I didn't actually have a target in a transport that he popped with boon, but when I talked about having putting him in a land raider so he wouldn't get taken out on the first turn he just laughed and said he didn't need line of sight so he could get him inside the transport as long as the transport was in range.

By that logic, I could hit a model inside a vehicle with indirect artillery because it doesn't require LoS either. Point to pg 66 of BGB where it says "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside." and tell him to stfu.

He was surrounded. He wasn't in terrain but he had an assault squad between him and them as well as the squad he was attached to. He was in range, but as he explained the power he could choose any model within range and did not require LOS. What is the rule so I can inform him of any mistake he might have made and look out for future issues with the power.