A YTTH post on the subject of Comp in Tournaments.....

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**Horst**

basically, and determine pairings based on that ranking.

edit - of course, the pairings / comp scores would not be released to players during the matches. they'd see no difference.

**Mannahnin**

Many of the indy WH GTs in the US use a similar system. More commonly they make comp worth a fairly small number of points in the overall standings (say, up to 20pts total, of which pretty much no one gets a maximum score, and pretty much only the nastiest daemon army gets a 0), and they also use comp for pairings for the first three rounds out of five.

**ryzouken**

That is an elegant solution to the "comp problem" but, I foresee a few issues with it.

You still have the opportunity for army favoritism on behalf of the TOs. What they consider strong may or may not bear out on the game board. The criterion for ranking lists would need to be VERY well thought out and VERY carefully balanced. Likely the first few runs would be a bit rough, but over time experience would temper the process.

It adds a lot more calculation to the TO's workload, meaning more chances for error and, well, more work (less TO time for cheatery prevention).

That's just off the top of my head tho.

**Mannahnin**

Yup. This is why the "comp council" currently in use for the Northeast Indy GTs is comprised of gamers from several different groups, all with solid competitive cred.

As for the math, it adds one additional operation of addition each round. I think Overlord is actually set up to do it for you, too.

**Horst**

It really wouldn't be much more work for the TO, because he'd have to score comp anyway at some point, and this actually lets him do it ahead of time.

and yea, in between rounds it would be just one more addition operation.

what is this overlord you speak of? Some kind of tournament program? I'd be interested in seeing it, if you can provide a link.

edit - as for TO favoritism, nothing will ever eliminate that. However, most players who don't want comp seem to be of the mentality that the guy with the best list should win. This simply would place the hard lists, in the TO's opinion, together in the pairing brackets. They would still be able to say whoever has the best list wins.

for those who like comp, it means your matches should be good if you bring a fluffy list, but get progressively harder as your score rises to become on par with those who had worse comp scores.

**Black Blow Fly**

Well by the looks of this thread it sounds like comp is going to make a comeback by way of the Indy GTs. Do you think that comp will tend to help the locals? It sounds like comp rules will be all over the place to me. It should be quite interesting. I think that it looks like a fairly even split between those in favor of comp and those who are opposed to it. I don't see either side giving way much ground to the opposite camp either.

G

**chromedog**

@Horst:
Overlord is a tournament scoring program used by many of the Australian tournaments. It handles all of the usual score categories, turn by turn.

It was created by the WAU user DMG (AFAIK) and this site should help with other questions.
http://www.dmgaming.com.au/index.php?id=1

**don_mondo**

Horst wrote: in a manner announced by the TO before the GT starts.

And this is the sticking point. If 12 out of 15 points are awarded on "In the Judge's Opinion" subjective items (as in the linked example), then most players will have no idea what the standards are. The judge's buddies/fellow club members might (can we all say unfair advantage?), but the rest of us won't. To me, this is what it all boils down to. I'm already having to put up with someone's "opinion" on paint scores, which I accept. But now I'm expected to accept that someone else's opinion of what makes my army 'proper', ie compy and/or themed is better than my opinion.
And then you want to throw the (in your opinion) hard comp lists against each other while giving the soft comp lists more points and (in your opinion) easier opponents as well? Wow, let's just ding the 'hard' comp players twice, why don't we? Not only are they going to lose points under your system, but if your comp scoring is true and the harder armies mostly play each other, then the soft armies have an advantage in the final standings.

**mikhaila**

I don't really think the rules they play by down in Australia, or the UK, or Burma, or where ever are quite applicable to US tournaments. I've never heard of these actually being used in a GT in the US. I know in the NE, a lot of the tournaments are using the Overlord program (IE, the application on the computer used for scoring), and not the comp rules that they use down in Australia. From what I hear the program makes doing pairing very easy, and can take care of things like minimizing first round match ups between club members.

Vast difference in what they see as comp, and what's used here in the states. There composition score down there is much more "how we think the game should be played", adherance to fluff, colored by ideas like "rare means rare, you should never have TWO rares", or "Well, just because it's in the book doesn't mean anyone should ever USE that magic item!"

I doublt you'll see a GT like this in the US. That said, I wan't to hold one up at my store this year. I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing, only talk in fake australinish accents, and it will be a 7 round tournament, with round 1,3,5,and 7 held down at the bar.)

What I think you will see at some GT's especially it seems in the NE part of the US, are tournaments that have a small portion of the points (20/160 to 20/200) labeled as "comp". It's more of a Handicap really, as fluff, theme, etc aren't considered. Only how good/hard your army is, and that score is usually done by a committee of very exerienced GT level gamers. That handicap score is usually used to determine first or second round matchups, hard army on hard, soft on soft.

**don_mondo**

mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

**A-P**

don_mondo wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

No intention of doing a threadjack but this raised my curiosity. What kind of hat? One of our local IG players has a genuine Soviet Army officers hat. He puts in on every time he starts a game

.

**mikhaila**

A-P wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

No intention of doing a threadjack but this raised my curiosity. What kind of hat? One of our local IG players has a genuine Soviet Army officers hat. He puts in on every time he starts a game .

Now that's scary. I have a player at my shop that does the same, but with a chinese army hat that he puts on whenever he plays russians in FOW.

**willydstyle**

I ran a no-comp tourney a month or so ago.

The best players with the best lists won.

I've got no problem with that.

**don_mondo**

A-P wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

No intention of doing a threadjack but this raised my curiosity. What kind of hat? One of our local IG players has a genuine Soviet Army officers hat. He puts in on every time he starts a game .

Way back in the beginning it was a grey fedora style with pins and buttons all over it. First one was lost when my car was stolen and totalled. Fortunately (or unfotunately, as the case may be), I had two of them and just had to collect pins for the second one, which is still in my closet. Used to be pictures of me wearing it in Dallas and Charlotte GT coverage. The current one is basically a black cowboy hat, again with pins and such all over it. I've actually traded the little round 40K pins that GW used to hand out with Hard Rock Cafe hostesses and such for their pins. The 'hostesses' at the club I went to Saturday night while at GBFs tourney handmade me a pin out of some of their club merchandise!

**Black Blow Fly**

don_mondo wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

I like your dive helmet the bestest!

G

**Grimgob**

Green Blow Fly wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
I also want to make everyone wear stupid hats while playing,

I already do that!! For the last 10+ years....................... It's my 'trademark item'.

I like your dive helmet the bestest!

G

Thats my favorite too (its really intemidating to play someone with a steel bowl on their head), just no one ever hears it when he calls his WAAAGH!!!

**Nurglitch**

Now there's an idea for an Ork conversion: a diving helmet with iron gob attached, so the underwater gribblies know what's giving them boot leather!

**Black Blow Fly**

He has a loud speaker mounted on top... Just thought ya should know that bit.

G

**don_mondo**

Actually, you left off what should be the 'first' step.

First, make public the comp scoring to be used, make sure every player has a copy of it or access to it. Otherwise you're asking players not familiar with the system to just guess. And when the comp score can be up to 20% (yes, 20%, 20 out of 100, for an upcoming tourney) of the overall score, that's a significant factor for someone to go into blind. Especially when it's apparently a totally subjective "how hard is the army" scoring. No theme. no fluff, just 20 points based on how hard is the army, scored (subjectively. objectively?) by five experienced players. "Composition will be scored by a group of 5 people, all of which currently play on a regular basis, and have tournament and GT experience. Compostition will not be based on theme, fluff, or story, only on how competitive your army is in a tournament enviorment."

So first, make sure everyone knows what the comp scoring consists of, otherwise (as I've said before) those 'in the know' will indeed have an advantage over those who aren't.

Horst wrote:meh, I had a cool idea for how to implement comp in a fair way I think.

First off, all users must submit their lists via email 2-3 days before the GT starts.

Second, all lists are scored for comp by the tournament organizers before the game is played, in a manner announced by the TO before the GT starts. Note that in this system, a low comp score is considered better, while a high score would be considered worse.

Third, first round pairings are determined entirely based on the comp score.

Fourth, for 2nd round and on, add the comp score to the player's total battlepoints. This is the figure used to create pairings from this point on.

Fifth, disregard the comp score after the last round, and do not count it for any prizes, save perhaps a "best army composition" prize or similar. do not factor it into best general or best overall. best general should be pure battlepoints, best overall should be battlepoints + painting + sportsmanship.

This would accomplish my goal of making the pairings more fair based on a limited number of games. My main concern is a guy who brings a good, fair, balanced list on the first round gets his face smashed in by a guy with an over the top list, and from then on has to play catch up to guys who get only lucky matches against other fluffy lists. Let the hard lists fight each other and duke it out.

However, this is also a fair compromise for the player who enjoys bringing his hard list, because it means everyone he plays, save for the final round or so when exceptional players with balanced lists near their points totals, will have similarly styled face pound lists.

I'd consider this a fair compromise between both camps.