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2010/01/19 02:19:03
Subject: Re:You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Religion accepts the imperfection of the human being and acknowledges the human mindset.
No, it does not. If it did, you would not have had the Crusades orthe Salem Witch Trials. Religion is anything, but intolerant. It it were, the religious nuts would not picket abortion clinics or try and ban gay marriage laws.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:27:30
2010/01/19 02:21:48
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
@Ironhide: I'm really starting to think you're just trolling here.
@Orlanth: I don't understand why your are juxtaposing science and religion. They are not mutually exclusive. The scientific method is just that, a methodology. It is not a worldview or moral system, despite what some people claim. I think what you are referring to is called scientism. That viewpoint comes with none of the prestige of the sciences themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:24:53
@Ironhide: I am saying that you seem to be addressing the statement in an inflammatory way. The Holocaust, for example, had nothing at all to do with religion.
Manchu wrote:@Ironhide: I am saying that you seem to be addressing the statement in an inflammatory way. The Holocaust, for example, had nothing at all to do with religion.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2010/01/19 02:32:41
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
@Ironhide: Even so, simply listing atrocities associated with religion (and religion alone does not actually do much to explain why those events happened; I would suggest that you learn more about the Crusades and witch trials) does not negate Orlanth's point. If I understand him correctly, he means to say that Christianity presupposes that humanity is incomplete in and of itself and is only completed or perfected in relationship to its creator whereas scientism assumes man to be capable of eventually knowing all that can be known and using this knowledge to eliminate all imperfections.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:43:46
Orlanth wrote:
Again if you are atheist then somewhere down the line the choice has been made, even if it is symbolised by reverting to a pre-assumed default of 'non belief'. I suppose this entitles you to attempt to act as a mediator in a debate who looks at all evidence dispassionately, but who is truly dispassionate.
There is no necessary choice involved where inaction is concerned. That doesn't mean that atheism cannot involve faith, as it frequently does via the distinction between disbelief with respect to a thing, and belief in the absence of a thing. Now, this all changes if you don't want to treat atheism as the pure negation of theism, which is certainly a viable position.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironhide wrote:
No, it does not. If it did, you would not have had the Crusades orthe Salem Witch Trials. Religion is anything, but intolerant. It it were, the religious nuts would not picket abortion clinics or try and ban gay marriage laws.
The acceptance of human imperfection is not tacit to tolerance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:33:45
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2010/01/19 02:36:12
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Manchu wrote:@Ironhide: I am saying that you seem to be addressing the statement in an inflammatory way. The Holocaust, for example, had nothing at all to do with religion.
Whether Christian institutions should have done more to prevent or resist the Holocaust is not the same question as whether those institutions or even Christian beliefs contributed to the Holocaust happening. Some have asked the latter question but there is really no connection between the two. (In other words, there is a difference between what people who call themselves Christians think or do and what Christianity itself teaches.) I think that you will find that systematic genocide and the nationalist racism it is based upon is a secular, modern invention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:37:44
Manchu wrote:@Orlanth: Thank you for taking the time to thoroughly reply to my remarks. I strongly encourage you to take an open-minded look at historical-critical biblical scholarship. Regarding the Reformation and its effects, I would recommend the book A Secular Age by Charles Taylor.
No problem. I will try and add it to my reading list, but it might be some time. Please PM me a copy-paste synopsis from a review source you agree with and a reminder.
Manchu wrote:
I don't think that you are being persecuted because you are a Christian. I think you are receiving criticism because of your particular claims about what it means to be a Christian.
This here isn't persecution. Like the trolls I can say what I like the worst I can get is a flame or a ban.
Point remains to be outspoken on religion is to stick your head atop the parapet. Dare I addressed the subject of 'do sinners or followers of other faiths burn in hell', or other highly controversial topics offense would quickly be taken no matter how it was phrased. I have been singled out and harassed many times, even though I keep away from such topics. Normally the opposite occurs, one way to bait Christians face to face is to demand answers to tough Biblical questions and then encourage others to revile them when the answers come, then as often as not invited to leave by those who asked the questions - who was not the persons I had arranged to meet, just others who were there.. Because a Christian is expected to defend their faith we can easy be 'ambushed' this way. Frankly I never minded, just answered the questions and sucked it up. If this is as bad as it gets I am laughing, I would like to think they it I was told to renounce my faith at gunpoint I would have the courage to refuse, but dont know if I am that strong.
This is a very real concern, if not in England then elsewhere. This question faces Christians in China and much of the Islamic world day after day. However sometimes it does come closer to home. I know of a woman in my church who has stabbed to death by her husband for failing to renounce her faith, this was in 1996. I last met her an hour before she died, she was on the street preaching. Admittedly this last horrific act was exceptionally rare in a western country, but still it can and did happen. According to the one witness to the event, who had given himself up to the police, when she was stabbed she started to sing.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/01/19 02:48:51
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Manchu wrote:@Ironhide: Even so, simply listing atrocities associated with religion (and religion alone does not actually do much to explain why those events happened; I would suggest that you learn more about the Crusades and witch trials) does not negate Orlanth's point. If I understand him correctly, he means to say that Christianity presupposes that humanity is incomplete in and of itself and is only completed or perfected in relationship to its creator whereas scientism assumes man to be capable of eventually knowing all that can be known and using this knowledge to eliminate all imperfections.
Now see, that makes more sense. I however did not perceive it that way.
To summarize, a person without god is incomplete. Yet scientists believe that a man does not need god to become complete, only knowledge. N'cest pas?
2010/01/19 02:50:35
Subject: Re:You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Religion accepts the imperfection of the human being and acknowledges the human mindset.
No, it does not. If it did, you would not have had the Crusades orthe Salem Witch Trials. Religion is anything, but intolerant. It it were, the religious nuts would not picket abortion clinics or try and ban gay marriage laws.
@ Manchu Let me answer this comment at face value, it is a fair point.
You are partially correct, but we cannot establish a good doctrine based on the actions of bigots. the principles of religion are based on people of good faith, not charlatans and despots who use the mass power of religion for their own ends. Inquisitors were on a power trip, they could condemn on a whim and even to the people of the time they were contrary to clear church doctrine, people were too afraid to challenge them.
Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit"
Christians can justly disown and dismiss the activities of Witch hunters, Inquisitors and medieval persecutors of all stripes, and also more recently the hotheads of both Catholic and Protestant persuasions that fueled the Troubles in Ireland as categoric non-believers. While it is actually a sin to judge another mans salvation (only God can do that) let me just say that I would not be suprised if Jesus wrote off the same people also.
The same can be said to a lesser degree of most of the belligerent pickets, though I would hesitate to consider them non-believers unlike the murderers and torturers of the 'faith'.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/01/19 02:50:41
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
@Ironhide: Yes, except the latter view is not necessarily held by all scientists. It is called scientism.
Orlanth wrote:While it is actually a sin to judge another mans salvation (only God can do that) let me just say that I would not be suprised if Jesus wrote off the same people also.
This is another area where we are going to disagree, I think. (Not the first clause but rather the second.) I believe that this kind of talk (along with the problematic literalism I mentioned before) is what eventually leads to witch hunts. I've posted this video on dakka twice before but I think it bears repeating. (apologies to those who've seen it)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:55:34
Manchu wrote:@Ironhide: I am saying that you seem to be addressing the statement in an inflammatory way. The Holocaust, for example, had nothing at all to do with religion.
Whether Christian institutions should have done more to prevent or resist the Holocaust is not the same question as whether those institutions or even Christian beliefs contributed to the Holocaust happening. Some have asked the latter question but there is really no connection between the two. (In other words, there is a difference between what people who call themselves Christians think or do and what Christianity itself teaches.) I think that you will find that systematic genocide and the nationalist racism it is based upon is a secular, modern invention.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2010/01/19 02:57:13
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Sorry, Fitzz. Having read respected scholarly works on this subject, I'm not very convinced by unsourced intenet opinions. I would recommend you read Henry Kamen's book on the Spanish Inquisition as a starting place.
Also, see the video I just posted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 02:58:31
I am by no means a religious person. If religion is your cup of tea, then I'm fine with that. What peeves me is when people want to get into discussions on whether or not god exists. It can't be proved or disproved with empirical evidence. So why discuss it? The real "meat" of religious discussions is in the teachings and what can be learned from them. Those types of discussions interest me as they will usually have some value and merit.
2010/01/19 03:04:40
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
A discussion about the existence of God can be very meaningful once you get past the notion that such a discussion will be about proof one way or the other. If you want to talk about the existence of God, the conversation should be about the nature and meaning of faith. Certainly the teachings of a religion are important when we survey its historical or political or even philosophical significance. But lived religion, as I think Orlanth was trying to point out, isn't about accepting a certain set of principles or arguments over another one. It's not, primarily at least, about agreeing with one philosophy over another.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:04:53
All the discussions I've seen on that always end badly with both sides on the issue being very polarized, and unwilling to listen objectively to the evidence presented.
2010/01/19 03:09:34
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
That is why it is important to start with an open-mind and attitude of good will. It also helps for both parties to realize that there is no winner or loser in such a discussion and that the point of it should not be to convert someone to one's own point of view.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:09:57
Manchu wrote:@Ironhide: Even so, simply listing atrocities associated with religion (and religion alone does not actually do much to explain why those events happened; I would suggest that you learn more about the Crusades and witch trials) does not negate Orlanth's point. If I understand him correctly, he means to say that Christianity presupposes that humanity is incomplete in and of itself and is only completed or perfected in relationship to its creator whereas scientism assumes man to be capable of eventually knowing all that can be known and using this knowledge to eliminate all imperfections.
Now see, that makes more sense. I however did not perceive it that way.
To summarize, a person without god is incomplete. Yet scientists believe that a man does not need god to become complete, only knowledge. N'cest pas?
Actually I dont either.
Its interesting how Manchu reads me.
Yes I do believe that science tries to better man by expanding the body of human knowledge. I also believe that man is incomplete without the relationship with God via the Holy Spirit following the example of Jesus. In an attempt to be more neutral path humans have a psychological need to address spiritual issues, especially mortality. However I dont often look that far ahead.
To me my religion looks at the practical day to day needs. sufficient each day is the days concerns. Partly because in my mind such issues as who I am, why I am, and where I am going after death are long settled. To me and many other Christians that the elementary stuff, I don't dismiss it or become blaze about it, i just thank God and move on and try to live a holy life.
Manchu wrote:
@Orlanth: I don't understand why your are juxtaposing science and religion. They are not mutually exclusive. The scientific method is just that, a methodology. It is not a worldview or moral system, despite what some people claim. I think what you are referring to is called scientism. That viewpoint comes with none of the prestige of the sciences themselves.
I have no beef with science either. My only point of concern is where atheists hijack science as a means of card stacking their own claims that God is dead, or never was. This is a just cause for concern.
Now I do see problems in the scientific community, like how the body academic on a large scale can be as dogmatised as a religion due to human inertia, but at no time do I believe that science and religion are mutually exclusive. In fact the opposite is more often true. the historical dating system for events prior to the eight century BC only made sence when ther Biblical account was taken as the canon timeline. The orthodox timeline gave rise to a discrepancy of three hundred years due to two Egyptian dynasties existing simultaneously. The Biblical dating was dismissed in favour of egyptian records, because the Bible was dismissed as non historical. The reversal of this opinion and the acknowledgement that Egyptian dynasties could coexist at the same time gave rise to the new chronology which fits the Bible and other sources and is now widely accepted as canon history.
All the time the real timeline was there from Moses to the fall of Jerusalem in the most widespread book in the world. It should have been a non issue had it not been for a dogma prevelant until recently of dismissing Biblical evidence from histocial canon.
Edit: getting tired, and missed adding the quote I was replying to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:59:45
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/01/19 03:12:55
Subject: Re:You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
Albatross wrote:@MODs - Yeah, please don't - Tblock didn't mean to post a picture of a stoned horse, it just sort of 'happened'.
I am still wondering if I should attempt to explain myself to Tblock.
No, don't bother... I have your number. Here is mine:
Corey Taylor wrote:
'O almighty, all knowing, compassionate Lord..'
In hearing these words from a priests mouth one must look at the contradictions and conundrum of faith in regards to the problem of suffering. Just look at the world around you. Read the newspaper once and you'll understand this as every rational human being should.
If this "God" does exist, in co-ordinance with the priests statement, and is aware about the matters of his creations, then either:
1. God knows about suffering and could stop it but doesn't care, in which case he isn't compassionate
2. God knows about suffering, and cares about it but can't do a thing about it, in which case he isn't all-powerful
3. God can do something about it and cares about it, but doesn't know about it, in which case he isn't all-knowing.
Modern theoligians would argue that suffering is but a test and that we are all being subjected to pain and suffering in order to test our faith until the next coming of christ. But deep down in our souls any human being can and should empathize with the pain and suffering of another, and state ,without argument, that it is not right and at times seemingly without reason.
At this point the question of God becomes pointless, and when one focuses his or her path towards helping others who might be less fortunate rather then embarking on their own selfish spiritual journey, the world might start to realize the love of one another without the question of God as reason.
I think what drives most people to turn to athiesm is the clear and apparent contradictions presented in the words of the bible. If "God" is all-forgiving, then what does the idea of Hell represent? the ones who weren't forgiven? If God made the Earth, then the animals, then made Man directly after in his own image, then what are the Dinosaurs? who were the dominant species on this planet for millions of years before us. If some would beleive the Bible is and should be taken as a literal piece of historical fact, much like modern day history books, then one should also be able to compare the two as such. There is physical evidence of most of the events throughout the history of the earth. Most proving the stories in modern day history books. Except for the Bible ofcourse, in which there is no physical evidence or proof provided. Thus, the Bible, in my opinion should be taken as most great fables and myths should. Like the ones about dragons, magic and heroes. A great story with magic and miracles, replete with morals and life-lessons to be learnt, as all the best stories should.
And so, the question of God is an unimportant one. If people spend too much time on it they might, like many, fall into the seclusion of religion. Sectioning themselves off from society in a search for internal truth and comfort. Saying that beleivers should be held higher then non-beleivers, and spending their lives imposing it on others or living behind the divisions of its walls. When the real problems are right in front of our noses. PEOPLE need help. the WORLD needs help. And compassion, knowledge and the power to change, has and should have nothing to do with "God"
I am a damaged individual screaming random obscenities into the internet, sorry if I upset you.
"Dig what you dig. Don't take any fool's madness, just dig what you dig."
-Corey Taylor (Not Saying you're a fool )
"You guys are nuttier n fruitbats who just sucked a three week old pineapple." -Frazzled
2010/01/19 03:14:35
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
@Orlanth: I don't understand with which part of my interpretation of your statement you have taken issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @tblock1984: That quotation does not express the views of modern theologians or Christian doctrine. The Church does not teach that pain and suffering is a test. Rather these things are the tragic consequence of human freedom. Regarding that last paragraph, religious charities give huge sums of money and aid to alleviate the suffering and marginalization of the poor and oppressed. It is hard to imagine that, having I would guess at least heard of Mother Theresa if no other religious person, you could take that viewpoint seriously.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:19:43
Manchu wrote:@tblock1984: That quotation does not express the views of modern theologians or Christian doctrine. The Church does not teach that pain and suffering are a test. Rather these things are the tragic consequence of human freedom.
And your point is? I am not trying to win a debate here. I am just frustrated at the tone this conversation is taking. Can I not participate unless I spew religious doctrine and rhetoric?
Is my post worth less than yours because I posted a blog from someone I can relate to? Or is it the fact that it is an atheist statement?
I am a damaged individual screaming random obscenities into the internet, sorry if I upset you.
"Dig what you dig. Don't take any fool's madness, just dig what you dig."
-Corey Taylor (Not Saying you're a fool )
"You guys are nuttier n fruitbats who just sucked a three week old pineapple." -Frazzled
2010/01/19 03:23:28
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
My point is that the view expressed in that quotation is not well informed. That person does a good job of expressing their frustration but is simply incorrect in most if not all of their assumptions about what Christianity is like.
There is no need to talk about one post being worth less than another.
Manchu wrote:@Orlanth: I don't understand with which part of my interpretation of your statement you have taken issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @tblock1984: Regarding that last paragraph, religious charities give huge sums of money and aid to alleviate the suffering and marginalization of the poor and oppressed. It is hard to imagine that, having I would guess at least heard of Mother Theresa if no other religious person, you could take that viewpoint seriously.
So? What does that have to do with Christians badgering atheists on a war gaming forum and telling them that they know better than the atheists?
I am a damaged individual screaming random obscenities into the internet, sorry if I upset you.
"Dig what you dig. Don't take any fool's madness, just dig what you dig."
-Corey Taylor (Not Saying you're a fool )
"You guys are nuttier n fruitbats who just sucked a three week old pineapple." -Frazzled
2010/01/19 03:24:42
Subject: Re:You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
tblock1984 wrote:So? What does that have to do with Christians badgering atheists on a war gaming forum and telling them that they know better than the atheists?
With regard to belief or disbelief in God, that is not what is happening in this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:26:16
Manchu wrote:That is why it is important to start with an open-mind and attitude of good will. It also helps for both parties to realize that there is no winner or loser in such a discussion and that the point of it should not be to convert someone to one's own point of view.
However,and please correct me if I'm wrong, converting others is one of the tenents of Christianity..is it not?
I'm not a Christian,I don't belive in any god..however,I don't actively attempt to persude others to "renounce god"
I see it as part of an idividules personal freedom to accept god if they so choose to..or to not belive in any god...or to worship chickens if that's what they decide floats their boat.
On the other hand, I have been told by more Christians than I could count that I am surely damned to hell for my belifes (an idea that amuses me ),so..where is the open mind when speaking with these individules?
Where is their good will?
Not tying to flame or "troll"...it simply has been my experince that "understanding" and "acceptance" always go hand in hand with attempts at converting.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2010/01/19 03:28:48
Subject: You were made for greater things than porn. Jesus said so.
@FITZZ: Conversion is a problematic area. True conversion only occurs within a person. No one can make you believe. If you think about it, this would be thought of by Christians as a kind of blasphemy. Christians often describe themselves as evangelists, meaning that they want others to at least hear the message of the Gospel and have access to information. Some are obviously and unfortunately more pushy about it than others. But in the end, only you can make up your own mind.
I am sorry to hear about your experience. I have also experienced that and found it to be totally alienating. It is frustrating that this happens so often because it gives Christianity a bad rap. But I can assure you that ignorance and arrogance are not the fruits of Christianity. People come to the faith with that baggage. Those who see their religion as a means to control others are probably still struggling to understand it themselves .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/19 03:32:09
Respectfully, I disagree Manchu. At points, it seems Orlanth comes off as speaking down towards others, and that is where I think some of the flak comes from. No disrespect towards anyone. That is just how I perceive it.
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