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Terminus wrote:That why despite all this internet hubbub about "Leafblowers" and everyone rushing out to duplicate the list, none of those people have amounted to squat in any tournament they've participated in.

I've noticed this too. The good players did well with the list or a modification of it, but the bad players that read on the internet that it was a win button got tabled.

In smaller point games you will see more of an effect from shooting second as every model lost is a big hit. The larger your games the more you can lose without it damaging your plans.

@Spank Hammer: A 50% win streak? You're doing better than me, mate.

Im an IG noob. I have only played 5 games, but 4 of them were victories. The average troop to put it simply...pathetic. They are one of the worst standard infintry types in 40k, and this is where the IG's weakness lies. People tend to get scared of the massed soldiers standing in line after line. You need to ignore the infantry and focus on the supporting heavy units and tanks. The Leman Russ Executioner in the most beutiful piece of engineering i've ever used in 40k with five S7 AP2 blast shots from the sponsons and main cannon mixed with an optional lascannon and armour of 14 its a moving fortress. In not one game have i lost this tank (probably due to the fact that i took out half an army in two turns).
Against SM's
Turn 1 - i took out a whole 5 men Termi sqd
Turn 2 - i killed a 10 man tactical sqd and captain (minus the sergeant)
In the same battle i destroyed a land raider full of termies with one shot from a Devil Dog...it could possibly be the best tank hunter in 40k
Also Valks and Vendettas are perfect...only around 120pts each with sooo much firepower and transport caspacity,not to mention speed. they do have one weakness though Armour 12....

My point is the IG have one of the best vehical armouries possible, with low points. If you want to beat them you have to prioritise what poses the most threat. Get rid of any valks or vendettas,....theyr easy to take down due to them flying above cover but if left alone they pose a great threat...by turn two a whole sqd could be wiped out and an objective captured. Find a weak point and destroy it...get in close fast and try to use armoured transport to do it. Then most infantry will be rendered useless. Watch out for those storm troopers also as they have AP3 hot shot lasguns.

DONT BE AFRAID OF GETTING CLOSE AND PERSONAL...IT WILL BENEFIT YOUR ARMY GREATLY!!!

Stormtroopers are the absolute biggest garbage in the entire IG list. Yeah AP3, blah blah blah, but then you realize they only have S3 and cost as much as Space Marines. Pass.

IG infantry can be quite lethal if used appropriately. I've lost count of how many times a Space Marine opponent lines up his little rhino rush, only for me to zoom up a demolitions unit to charge and wreck a raider and two rhinos in one assault phase. And large infantry platoons are not only a very solid firebase that takes a long while to silence, and can actually be a significant melee threat.

But yes, the infantry is there mainly to distract you from where the threat comes from: the awesomesause vehicles. Oh, and Valkyries/Vendettas are always 130 points (MRP or bust), with an optional 10 point heavy bolter upgrade.

I'm so glad that the Internet Consensus is that Stormtroopers suck. People believe this and now I don't have melta guns with re-rollable scatter dice coming down in my backfield.

Well, suicide melta drop is the only really good use of stormtroopers, although some players do have success with them, even at competitive events.

Personally, I think only pure footsloggers really need them, though, as mechanized troops have medusas, melta vets in valks, etc.

See, I happen to think that Suicide Meltas are better, because they're harder to avoid. Of course the Mystics in the metagame make this a bit less desirable I guess...

They aren't that much harder to avoid than a Devil Dog, a breacher Medusa, or a Valkyrie/Vendetta loaded up with a melta squad. Even with a re-roll, your margin of error for landing within 6" without a mishap is pretty small, and with the number of transport vehicles in the average army, it's not difficult to position your rhinos around your raider in such a way that you basically have to roll a HIT on scatter to land where you want (granted, that will happen 44% of the time).

And my objection to Storm Troopers is mainly one of principle. They are supposed to be these ultra-badass guys with the best training and equipment the Imperial Guard has to offer, yet their only use is as minimum-sized squads that do suicide-drops against vehicles. So much for those "uber AP3 gamebreaking guns" everyone was bitching about when their spoiler first hit the net.

What frightens me the most is that they will be the new Inquisitorial Storm Troopers when that book finally lands. They should either cost 3 points less each, or have the Storm the Objective ability from their Apoc data sheet.

Terminus wrote:They aren't that much harder to avoid than a Devil Dog, a breacher Medusa, or a Valkyrie/Vendetta loaded up with a melta squad. Even with a re-roll, your margin of error for landing within 6" without a mishap is pretty small, and with the number of transport vehicles in the average army, it's not difficult to position your rhinos around your raider in such a way that you basically have to roll a HIT on scatter to land where you want (granted, that will happen 44% of the time).

And my objection to Storm Troopers is mainly one of principle. They are supposed to be these ultra-badass guys with the best training and equipment the Imperial Guard has to offer, yet their only use is as minimum-sized squads that do suicide-drops against vehicles. So much for those "uber AP3 gamebreaking guns" everyone was bitching about when their spoiler first hit the net.

What frightens me the most is that they will be the new Inquisitorial Storm Troopers when that book finally lands. They should either cost 3 points less each, or have the Storm the Objective ability from their Apoc data sheet.

When their rumors first hit the net, I was saying "they're worth 10 points each, but GW will make them 12."

How little did I know...

GW overvalues bikes, 4+ saves, and AP3. Stormtroopers have two of those.

Can I just have some ST's with bolters? A cheaper marine would be so much more useful.

Take allied Sororitas. 11 points for power armor and a BS4 bolter, plus they get a faith point. Oh, and they're scoring.

Well I just ignore them. Too many special rules = too much points cost almost universally. ST't can not do much more then a vet squad in cover can.

Lorne wrote:Well I just ignore them. Too many special rules = too much points cost almost universally. ST't can not do much more then a vet squad in cover can.

Except deep strike.

Or provide Scouting Chimeras for your mech-train.

Veterans can do that with Harker.

to be fair, vets can grab a valk for only a few more points than stormtroopers in a chimera. Admittedly that costs a troop and a fast attack slot, instead of the often unused elites, but it's worth noting.

edit: Oh, and Harker. Wow, stormtroopers really are monofocused, aren't they?

That is what valks are for. Now I wonder what the points difference is between a 10 man ST squad and vets with a valk.

130ish + 120ish for melta vets
200ish for melta ST's

10 vets, 3 meltas, and a bare bones valk run 200pts on the nose. 5 Stormtroopers, two meltas, a chimera runs 160, and dramatically more if you add more bodies.

For 40pts you get five more guys, an extra melta, better armor on the transprt along with more speed.

Oh, and veterans are scoring.

Although scouting stormtroopers can shoot out the hatch...

I've got a different view on the ST. I like the tactical flexibility of choosing their operations at deployment - after you know the tactical situation (ie. terrain, opponent, mission). With melta or plasma, they have alot of ways they can throw a wrench in the opponents' plans, and so can help seize the initiative.

Of course I agree that they're expensive, and they have to be chosen carefully. Polonius is probably right about them being more important to footsloggers, as they bring their own kind of mobility to the table.

As far as the vets vs stormies argument goes, of course the vets are less expensive and can pack more weaponry, and also score, making them a superior choice in most cases. However the FoC may fill up, or the commander may want more scouting/outflanking chimeras, or may simply want a cheap melta delivery system. I realize it's 105pts for a basic ST melta squad, and 100 for the vet version (with an extra melta and twice as many men!). But the vets pretty much have to take a transport, which is at least 55pts. "But I want the transport, murdog". K fine - the transports are awesome so go for it. I'm just sayin, transports can be destroyed before delivering the package, and where is your 155 pt melta system then? Stormies can get melta on target for 105 pts.

hi

not being a tool or wanting to start an argument but guards dont worry me ive played many different lists and the one that upsets me most is the massed infantry one.

i play SM's and i have a fairly unimaginative list mech and termies

my motto is
"THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HOLD THE LINE!!!!!"

do what you can to get in amongst them i spread out and attack all over the place, trying to give them to much to choose from then close into combat, this is where the screaming begins.

but different storkes for different folks as they say

also sternguard and lysander in a drop pod helps thin out the numbers.

I love my guard!

I tend to agree with you shakey

Part of the 'fear factor' of IG is they seem to attract a lot of propeller head players (refer thread above) which kind of feels like your playing against the casino

Problem im really thinking of is how do you build a list that can take the various IG builds and still go on to take on bugs etc

For me that means coming back to first principles -

- flexibility vs specialisation,
- redundancy and ability to soak a few turns of being hit,
- economy of effort

motherhood statements yes, no substitute for experience more importantly

The more multipurpose units you have, the more redundancy your army has. This is a relatively simple assertion of course, but having 4 units that are good at anti-tank and anti-infantry is better than 2 units that are excellent at AT yet poor at anti-infantry, and vice-versa. Hence why Heavy Flamer/Multimelta Landspeeders are good as an example.

That said, having *some* specialists can be handy, especially if they're *really* good at their task at hand. Broadside Battlesuits, and Vendettas come to mind. Even then, Smart Missiles in the former unit's case, and the option for Heavy Bolters+the ability to transport units around (like flamer Special Weapon teams) means that both units can still be useable against the army types they're not specialized against.

It's not really an exact science though.

Everytime a guard player wins a game, a baby dies. You dont want to kill babies do you? Please, help stop the suffering, by preventing guard players from winning games.

I think guard are more a psychological weapon than anything. I do hope that they get rid of the allies rules, so guard finally have a real weakness.

The only "psychological" weapon the Guard possess is the Psyker Battle Squad

The rest of their weapons burn and blow things up.