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I'm liking the idea of the BSB better and better. If my school schedule allows for it, I will most definitely be attending.

I like "competitive" tournaments as much as the next guy, hell, it's pretty much all I've done for the last few years. I find the idea of a decidedly more hobby-oriented event sort of refreshing. Remember when we all used to do this for fun? Why can't there be more than one kind of tournament? Surely if one is such a gifted player they'd be able to dominate any kind of tournament, regardless of it's parameters.

Monster Rain, you should go, the event is fun. Don't let Espa's words deter you or mine for that matter. I feel gakky for contributing to this drama. I want to see the event flourish and do well.

The PacMads are nice guys, I gave them way too hard of a time in this thread. I didn't intend to do that but going back and reading what I wrote I definitely came across as condescending which is lame and makes me look like a jerk.

The event is fun. They are actively trying to tune up their system to address everyone's concerns but still stay true to their vision as a club which is all you can really ask.

So yeah, give it a whirl if you can, last year was good fun even with some wonky missions and heavy soft scores and at the end of the day, as you said, we play the game to have fun.

Thanks for that last reply Reecius.

A ways back amidst all the drama, someone asked about how we will be handling terrian for Fantasy. In an effort to get back to actual tournament details, I'll answer it.
We will place terrain as evenly on the tables as possible, so that the side you walk up on is not unbalanced with the other side. We would like people to not have to change sides after getting to the table, just for the plain fact that it can be difficult to move around at the venue. It is a new venue, with different tables. We still need to get with them and verify what they are. Hopefully they are not the stupid stage risers that the old place always had for tables. We did not provide those, the hotel did, and they did suck! But we couldn't rent taller tables either, part of the hotel rules.

Anyway, we will have fixed terrain, so that the placement of terrain does not take up 15 minutes of your game time. We'll have tape under each piece with a number, and a piece of tape on the table...in case pieces get moved between games to set army trays down on.

True line of site will be in effect. We are not using any house rules (I know someone mentioned something a few pages back about a bunch of weird house rules we have? I have no idea what he was talking about, and don't remember having any in the past...whatever). We are playing straight up 8th edition with the GW FAQs in affect. I think the only thing that would be considered a house rule would be about dwarves, and we will post this in the rules section - all templates hit everything they touch...despite the fact that GW did not address that in the dwarf FAQ. Dwarf templates act just like everyone elses.

There will likely be no more than 1 mysterious forest on a table. We'll put a card on it if we decide to have a mysterious forest. We're still up in the air on that and may just make all forests normal, just for simplicity. The only other "special" terrain will be the few Throne of Skulls GW terrain pieces we have. They will follow the rules for that piece. MAybe we'll just put them all on one table! Hah!

We playtested 3 of the WFB scenarios again yesterday at an RTT, and they went over well. There are a few clarifications I'll make to them based on comments. Thanks to Ghoulking Bob for running them.

Mordante wrote:True line of site will be in effect. We are not using any house rules (I know someone mentioned something a few pages back about a bunch of weird house rules we have? I have no idea what he was talking about, and don't remember having any in the past...whatever). We are playing straight up 8th edition with the GW FAQs in affect. I think the only thing that would be considered a house rule would be about dwarves, and we will post this in the rules section - all templates hit everything they touch...despite the fact that GW did not address that in the dwarf FAQ. Dwarf templates act just like everyone elses.

Also, hills will be considered to be infinitely high.

Reecius wrote:Monster Rain, you should go, the event is fun. Don't let Espa's words deter you or mine for that matter. I feel gakky for contributing to this drama. I want to see the event flourish and do well.

The PacMads are nice guys, I gave them way too hard of a time in this thread. I didn't intend to do that but going back and reading what I wrote I definitely came across as condescending which is lame and makes me look like a jerk.

The event is fun. They are actively trying to tune up their system to address everyone's concerns but still stay true to their vision as a club which is all you can really ask.

So yeah, give it a whirl if you can, last year was good fun even with some wonky missions and heavy soft scores and at the end of the day, as you said, we play the game to have fun.

I don't think you or Espa looked like jerks, to be honest. Nothing wrong with having opinions, you know? Espa was responding to something he felt passionately about, which I can definitely identify with. I actually agreed with the spirit of what of you said with the drama removed, which might sound weird but whatever.

I just happen to think there's room for events of all kinds of different types, and that the more we support them the more events we'll have the opportunity to go to. I'll be attending both the BSB and 'Ard Boyz with a big smile on my face.

The only issue I could have, is there going to be golden tickets given out? If so, it's unfair for the competitive people trying to get those tickets to compete in Vegas.

If not, then I think the tournament is not bad, very unique in its approach and definitely gives players of a different ilk a chance to shine (ie, the hobbyist vs the competitor).

I think that a well-rounded player would Excel in either scenario, but maybe I'm just idealistic.

In an ideal world, we'd all be master painters and tacticians, but that's not the case!

Well, for someone like me, I can't even come close to competing in painting. I can make a very nice table top standard army, but nothing with major conversions or highlighting. At the last GT I went to, I scored a 26/46, basically right where I was expecting. At something like the BSB, I'd expect to be in the lower echelon of painting scores, which means I'm almost out of the running from the start.

If Best General gets a ticket, then it should be fine even with the player judged comp/sports factored in.

The finals in Vegas, from what I can tell, are going to heavily favor good generals, not so much soft scores. So people aiming for said tournament, are mostly

They are still giving out Golden Tickets at this event. At least as far as the GW website says. And they go to Best Overall and 2nd Best Overall.

Reecius wrote:So seriously, let's try this again. I apologize for casting you in a negative light in this thread, I should have been more thoughtful in my word choices. I don't care about what happened between us way back when, it really is pretty laughable that we lost a friendship over a game of toy soldiers. Let's put this behind us and move on. I don't like having enemies and I don't want to have a situation where things are always tense. You are saying things that are flat out untrue now, and by throwing mud at me you are only going to escalate things.

Let's forgive and forget here, huh? It's pointless to continue this feud, it has already damaged this event and I would hate to see more of that type of thing happen. We're both adults so let's behave as such.

I thought this post was excellent, and is once again why I'm really impressed with Reecius. It's possible to be a competitive gamer, be passionate about tournament formats, and to be civil about it, too. Burying the hatchet and all that... very glad to see a post like this!

Will also give the fantasy scenarios a read-through and provide some feedback if possible

Dice Gods of the Abyss, I take a short training time out and all hell breaks loose!!!

It truely is a sad state of affairs when gamers decide not to play in an event because of personal differences, spite and good old fashioned angst.

For the record, I was the first to post the dreaded WAAC in this thread as a talking point. Im curious to understand the source of contention with this term...at a later time.

Pertinent to the conversation: The TO's are making an effort to address some of the issues brought up by some of the posters, that should be a good show of faith. The willingness to compromise shouldn't be license for disaffected groups to instigate, slander or attack other poster associated with the BSB 2010. Espa's post as the exception, of course.

Best of luck to you all and I hope that cooler heads can prevail in this.

Richard

Hulksmash wrote:They are still giving out Golden Tickets at this event. At least as far as the GW website says. And they go to Best Overall and 2nd Best Overall.

That's a little disheartening. I'd really like a shot at a ticket, but there's no way I can make up for the amount of soft scores I'm going to lose. It's all good though, there's plenty of other tournaments to try for.

On Topic:

I'm officially in wait and see mode. I'm personally hoping that they keep the original format that was posted just with more balanced missions. That is the singular issue I had with the event. Because unfun/imbalanced scenarios can lead to an unfun time. Keep in mind my SW's and Nids both benefitted heavily from the scenarios posted.

Off Topic:

The problem with the Term Win At All Costs is what has been stated previously in the thread. That it implies a drive to win at the exclusion of morals. It is a term that can be extremely offensive to people that play to win but still approach this as a hobby and a game (which is 99% of "tournament" players). It has similar connotation to TFG. I hope that clears it up.

@Greenbay

The SCGWL events do Best Overall/Best General for the tickets. They have NeonCon in Vegas coming up. There is probably going to be a bay area event that will do something similar. If you do 40k there is also the Sprue Posse GT that is being advertised. Hope that helps.

greenbay924 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:They are still giving out Golden Tickets at this event. At least as far as the GW website says. And they go to Best Overall and 2nd Best Overall.

That's a little disheartening. I'd really like a shot at a ticket, but there's no way I can make up for the amount of soft scores I'm going to lose. It's all good though, there's plenty of other tournaments to try for.

There is the Ironman XVII in Las Vegas on January 15th (40)k and Golden Snotling March 12th (fantasy) . The scoring is the Throne of Skulls format that GW will be using for their GT's. No paint score just have to have painted minis, and each tournament will be giving two "golden tickets" invitations to the GT.

I just want to say that everyone is welcome to come to the event. Once things are finalized people can make a decision based on weather this event is for you, no hard feelings whatever your decision. I would like to put this behind us, so we can get back to enjoying the hobby we all like so much.

I'm hoping for some solid scenarios, the paint checklist that was already up, and the loss of comp. I think those changes would still make it a fun event for everyone but would bring more players in overall. I look forward to seeing the final product John.

Couple things:

@Espa-
Your nuts. Everyone likes Hulk, even when he brings facebeater lists. He is in my top five favorite people to play and I have never heard anyone (outside of SD people) complain about him, ever. I understand some of your anger here, as I get constant pressure to remove the impact of soft scores from our system (and a lot of people consider me "WAAC", go figure) from people, including the three you cited. But the fact is, competitive guys are what build a successful event. If I want to go roll some pubeless wonder using a battleforce army, I just truck down to the FLGS, I don't shell out $60 and skip V-Day with the wife for that. I think that is the part of it you are not seeing here, because frankly the SD crowd is fairly insular in a way that is difficult to explain to you. Like Dash, I have been to many events all over the country in this year alone and none of the local scenes are anything like the SD bunker mentality.

@Kurt-
Everytime some sort of crap happens, the first thing I hear is "those were not Pac Marauder guys" which is a cop-out, really. It would be like us saying "Touradj is a riverside guy" after the time he mouthed off about you guys, instead of owning it and correcting it like we did. Fact is, to outside observation, your last couple BSBs ran amazingly similar to a Clifford run tournament, hence the comparison there. Also, if some guy talks smack who is from SD, attends all the local Pac Marauders events, shares the same views on gaming as your group, and posts on your message board, saying "he's not one of ours" kind of does not carry water. Consider that Henry (one of two people with a lifetime ban from our events) was, at the time I last went to one of your RTTs, a member of your group, its not exactly hard to understand why everyone from SD with a huge chip on their shoulder gets painted with the same brush. Fair? No, but it is what it is.

Now, as I said, I will be there playing fantasy regardless, in a last ditch effort to try and finally bury the hatchet with you guys. I posted my thoughts on the scenarios (and scoring comments) in an effort to try and help, whether you believe that or not. I realize this may be futile, but I am honestly going to try, despite your crew attacking some of the nicest people in the community (including the guy who bragged about bashing Ian Dimitri in this very thread, sigh) which gives me a pretty good idea of how I will be viewed, given that I am far from the nicest guy out there.

Anyway, I do have a degree of respect for Kurt and Wade, (and have had good games against Kurt) I just wish they ran a tighter ship and that the PacMars were more in tune with the rest of the GW gaming community. I think if you guys actually went to a couple events (especially QCR), it would open your eyes a lot. When you only play in your own little clique, your tactics suffer and groupthink sets in. I think some of the fantasy scenarios reflect that. Having seen some variations of these scenarios played at other events (I have almost 80 games of 8th edition, spanning 8 different armies) I what the likely result of some of those scenarios is. I cannot stress enough that no one likes losing a game entirely to the scenario, which is what is going to happen in at least two of those. Also, no one likes being told what they have to take, so telling the forest spirit wood elf guy that he MUST take 4 fort points of stuff in his army because this one scenario might be used is going to turn people away.

In any case, I probably overstayed my welcome in this thread, so I will just say See you guys in Feb.

ps- "Hills are infinitely tall" is one example of a house rule that differs from the GW book. I would go with what has been suggested and set terrain as static (for both systems) and predetermine the terrain types for fantasy. The Slaughter and Tides of War both ran with 2500 points and preset terrain. Rounds ran on time and most people completed their games, despite 8th edition being only a month old. By the time Feb rolls around I think even the most casual people will have enough playtime under their belt to manage their round time well, if the terrain is static and predefined.

I believe that you can't put the San Diego players into just one group.

It seem like there is at least the Pacific Marauders that we are talking here about, and the Game Empire crowd that that are very competitive tournament guys.

RiTides wrote:
I thought this post was excellent, and is once again why I'm really impressed with Reecius. It's possible to be a competitive gamer, be passionate about tournament formats, and to be civil about it, too. Burying the hatchet and all that... very glad to see a post like this!

Thanks man, I appreciate the kind words.

I do feel like I inadvertently cast the first stone in this thing, so the least I could do is try and mitigate the damage.

Like others have said, there is room for all types of events. Some of us competitive guys that go to all the tournaments get pretty focused on the kinds of events we think are "best" and lose sight of the forest for all the trees.

I am planning on going, having fun and seeing my friends. That is, in the end, more important than influencing every tournament to be the way we want them to be. We have plenty of tough, competitive events and like Espa said, non-competitive gamers don't come in and try to change Ard Boyz. I think some of the changes we have suggested would be nothing but a good thing, and as Phazeal said, to grown an event you really do need the support of competitive gamers as we are the ones who travel in large numbers, but it is the PacMad's show, after all and I wish them the best with the event.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Blackmoor

I agree, San Diego has some of the best players in the country who play very competitively. There are at least two distinct, large groups there. Most everyone gets along just fine, they just both tend to do their own thing.

Hulksmash wrote:They are still giving out Golden Tickets at this event. At least as far as the GW website says. And they go to Best Overall and 2nd Best Overall.

The Hulk may smash....but he is correct We have 2 golden tickets for each system, 40k, WFB and WotR. They go, as stated, to the Best Overall and 2nd Best Overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phazael wrote:
@Kurt-
Everytime some sort of crap happens, the first thing I hear is "those were not Pac Marauder guys" which is a cop-out, really. It would be like us saying "Touradj is a riverside guy" after the time he mouthed off about you guys, instead of owning it and correcting it like we did. Fact is, to outside observation, your last couple BSBs ran amazingly similar to a Clifford run tournament, hence the comparison there. Also, if some guy talks smack who is from SD, attends all the local Pac Marauders events, shares the same views on gaming as your group, and posts on your message board, saying "he's not one of ours" kind of does not carry water. Consider that Henry (one of two people with a lifetime ban from our events) was, at the time I last went to one of your RTTs, a member of your group, its not exactly hard to understand why everyone from SD with a huge chip on their shoulder gets painted with the same brush. Fair? No, but it is what it is.

I get it...but far to often, everyone paints all San Diego players as PacMads. Friends of ours sure, gaming compatriots absolutely, a fine looking group of guys (well maybe not)...but not PacMads. Henry never was, despite having attended some of our events (well 1 actually) and living in San Diego.

Though I really don't see our events running in any way similar to Cliff/Game Empire's events. But lets not sweat that.

Thanks for the feedback Q...we are listening

Talk about self wankery

gothgar wrote:Talk about self wankery

By definition, 99.99% of the time the the term "spanking" is in relation to an act done by oneself so that makes no sense.

Back on topic with ye, me hearties! Hohoho.

Sorry, I was a pirate for Halloween. Maybe.

@Gothgar
Are you talking about Kurt? He's being incredibly even handed and level headed in this, I don't think he deserves any insults in the slightest.

If you were not talking about him, then sorry!

Phazael wrote:Blah Blah Blah... I hate Cliff... All San Diego players are in the same club and think exactly alike... Henry was in your club no matter what multiple people have said...

You know, Q, I haven't really noticed any sort of grudge between San Diego gamers and LA gamers... except for you. I don't know why you cling to it, I don't know why you perpetuate it. But it does seem to be you.

I hope you're genuine about burying the hatchet you've been grinding for such a long time.


Pacific Marauders: I do agree with Phazael about the hills, though, 'infinitely high hills' are just soooo 7th edition. If you want hills to block LOS, make taller hills for your tables.

Ghoulking Bob wrote:
Pacific Marauders: I do agree with Phazael about the hills, though, 'infinitely high hills' are just soooo 7th edition. If you want hills to block LOS, make taller hills for your tables.

I hate you Bob

Ohh how I long for those heady days, those sleepless night....of 7th Ed

Q there really are 2 very distinct groups down here in SD. The Pac Mads are a small group there are like 20-25 active members and very few tournament players. I will show the list at the event. The reason we usually say it was not the Pac mads is because that is the truth. Henery has never been a Pac Mad and neither has Cliff. I hope to clear everything up with you in Feb were we can talk at lenght.

I think your event would be best served by having this discussion in another venue and focusing the thread on the event, itself. I would be glad to discuss this further, but I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have.

To that point, get some playtesting in on the scenarios and figure your house rules faq as far in advance as you can. It will help your attendance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps- Cliff is a massive self serving douche and nothing will ever alter my opinion on that. His history of rigging his events is well documented.

Phazael wrote:
ps- Cliff is a massive self serving douche and nothing will ever alter my opinion on that. His history of rigging his events is well documented.

There's so much wrong with this little line, but I'll just say this: Not a good start for someone who says he wants to bury the hatchet.

Maybe he wants to bury the hatchet in someone?) obviously, much anger in this one.