Shep wrote:I read the whole thing!

I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.

Shep wrote:I read the whole thing!

I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.

Earlier in the thread he and others were getting a little hung up on the fact that breserkers can't beat every 'premiere' CC unit in CC. It is a troop choice, and yes... that makes a difference. 10 berserkers in a rhino can confidently head over to an objective, comfortable in their rhino until they lose it, then hop into cover and wait for the action to start. Or in a different scenario might be much more aggressive and charge something else. There are ample charge targets in most games that they can handily win against.

Abaddon points out that berserkers are slipping a little bit (not a ton) in comparison to modern dex 'choppy' troops. As new dexes come out, more and more the authors are slipping in feel no pain, armor save re-rolls, or other tweaks that kick up unit survivability to anything not a power weapon. Blood angels have the cheap and easy sanguinary priest, dark eldar wyches can easily steal a pain token from a haemonculous, genestealers will certainly have a nearby catalyst, smart space wolves can grab a banner for their grey hunters which give them an effective 66% strength feel no pain along with an increase in offensive output for a turn.

Berserkers have their WS5, they have their 3 attacks standing still, but they just have their 3+ save, and their non power weapon attacks are doing less and less to more and more units as new dexes come out. They aren't "dead" yet, I would take a unit of 10 certainly if I was playing "serious" CSM...

But CSM have another problem that Abaddon mentioned and then was shouted down. A lot of good responses came talking about properly supporting berserkers. Transports need to be opened for them, anti-infantry firepower, particularly plasma guns need to be shaken, stunned or just killed off to pave a way for them, and CSMs fire power and maneuverability is showing its age at least as much as its close combat ability.

An ork or nid army, or even a hybrid IG army knows that chaos isn't going to be able to get around them, either vertically enveloping or using speed. They also know that the only way they can get into their front lines quickly is with land raiders or rhinos.

Give chaos a thunderwolf cavalry type speed element, or give them excellent jump infantry, or usable bikes. Maybe even a drop pod. In the absence of obscene amounts of shooting, which I don't think has a very chaos flavor, They need a first wave assault element, sturdy and quick that can really press the issue right away. In that world where those units exist, then berserkers would be a great supporter of that attack or they can participate in other localized combats that aren't necessarily against enemy death stars.

Please, please give us nasty, speedy chaos spawn units and even nastier consistent possessed units. Excellent plastic models are already in place, just write the damn book!

Ok, so back to the OP question. I think berserkers have almost all of the makings of a fine troops choice for chaos. But they are otherwise surrounded by the elements of loyalist armies that most loyalists leave at home. Real support either in shooting or preferably with premiere close combat units eludes them. Can you play and win with CSM? Obviously, yes. Is it easier to win and do you have a more consistent list with less blind spots with a modern codex? Yes.

1300Telstra wrote:It's the manner, I think, that riles it up.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

1300Telstra wrote:It's the manner, I think, that riles it up.

what can I say.....
whats up with the new account btw?

yes. give possessed thunderwolf stats. hell just make them beasts with rending. keep their 5++ save where it is and give them an extra attack, maybe furious charge, an extra attack...... now that would be solid. make the random ability an extra perk instead of the make or break roll for the unit.

Deadshane1 wrote:I dunno, WS 5 and A 2 with 2 CCW's go's a long way in a sustained attack.

You just got to be smart with berserkers. They like to tackle things that ARENT dedicated Close combat, OR maybe close combat, but light armour and/or lower initiative.

If the target doesnt fall into those catagories, whats so difficult about softening them up with other elements of your army? Vindies, Havoc's, Oblits? Or maybe hit them with a Daemon Prince or two?

Be smart, trouble with high initiative hard hitters for CC? Do they have grenades? No? Why not park the Zerkers in that terrain right there? WS 5 and 3 attacks apeice going first isnt shabby. Get creative.

Trouble with a squad of 4 or so Thunderwolves? I doubt very much that the Wolves will survive if charged by two full 10 man squads of berserkers. "They'll never get the charge off, the T-Wolves are faster!" Tell that to my last opponent! Get creative with Rhino Tactics folks. If you're not GOOD with Rhino's, playing Berserkers is that much harder. Use them to block avenues of movement, put dozer's and EA on them, force opponents to CHARGE them to destroy them....forcing your Berserkers to deploy out of the destroyed Rhino...WELL WITHIN CHARGE RANGE FOR RETALIATION. Seen the old old westerns with covered wagons forming a circle to protect against indian ambushes....yea, rhino's do that VERY well...especially around an objective.

Learn Rhino tactics, play berserkers, have fun, get better at 40k!

KILL, MAIM, BUUURRRNNN!