Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:

1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus

what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:

1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus

what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF

I think this is a bit harsh. You make it seem like CSm are totally outclassed right now. While I do agree the codex is showing its age, its by no means a weak book.

Alot of points have been made, but let me address one in particular. People have been talking about how Berzerkers will get slaughtered by

most other armies tier 1 CC units. This is true. But the question is, if they will get wiped out, why are you fighting other top tier CC units

with Berzerkers? In my opionion, berzerkers should be used agianst non-dedicated assault units, and only thrown against really good assault

units when you have overwhelming force. Otherwise, the shooty elements of your army should focus on anything that is too deadly in hth

to try and fight with. Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can

excel in.

I regularly play agaisnt space wloves, and this happes quite often. If I blindly rushed at the Thunderwolves and wolf lord, the berzerkers

would get killed pretty quickly. But if you soften the unit up and then charge, berzerkers can get the job done. Essentially, berzerkers are

not the "end all doom unit" when it comes to CC, but are a very helpful CC unit that fits into the CSM codex and fulfils a necessary CC role.

While they lose handily to charging trygons or wolf lords, a berzerker unit can decimate a unit of boyz, gaunts, or even vanilla marines on the

charge. When used in this role, I feel they work very well.



As for the topic of top tier assault units, CSM daemon princes are no joke. If you run two daemon princes with wings and whatever marks you want, you have two mobile powerful assault MCs, that when used in tandem, can put a hurting on most of the things in the 40k universe.

Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can excel in.

Actually, I'd agree that the berzerker's biggest problem is their expectations. I mean, really, they're not that dissimilar to striking scorptions, which people also consider crap because they expect too much out of them.

As for chaos in general, if I weren't so busy with my guard I'd start up an army just to prove that they are, in fact, viable. The problem I see with most chaos players is that they have terrible ideas of list-building and field command. Yes, the codex isn't stellar, but you can't blame the codex for everything when it just so happens to collect a lot of terrible players.

Guh? 'Zerkers are infinetely better than Striking Scorpions, the WS5 alone makes them amoungst the most effective assault troops (not elites) in the game.

As for them being one-dimensional well...yes, whats the problem with that? They do one job exceptionally well at the exclusion of all else. You don't see people complaining that meltaguns aren't amazing at mowing down horde armies because their purpose, and their specialisation, is against vehicles.

Its much the same way with 'Zerkers (or pretty much every unit in the Eldar codex) they are focussed in such a way that they do one job very, very well. WS, I and S5 with 4 attacks on the charge is BRUTAL. I don't quite understand why people are be-moaning this quality. That being said, they are fairly fragile units, you can't just throw them into the teeth of the enemy unsupported and watch them eat through an army like they could back in 3rd/4th Ed. Use them intelligently, charge the correct targets and you'll mash pretty much anything you hit.

L. Wrex

Ailaros wrote:

As for chaos in general, if I weren't so busy with my guard I'd start up an army just to prove that they are, in fact, viable. The problem I see with most chaos players is that they have terrible ideas of list-building and field command. Yes, the codex isn't stellar, but you can't blame the codex for everything when it just so happens to collect a lot of terrible players.

Is the Ork Codex more competitive than the Choas Space Marine Codex?

orks are definitly more competitive then CSM.

the army can win with nothing but troops and HQ choices.

Chaos Space Marines can also win with only HQs and Troops. The potential to win says nothing about their chances. Indeed, an Ork horde is basically chafe for the mowing where Berzerkers are concerned. They're one of the few units in the game that can be reasonably expected to destroy a Boyz Mob in a single turn.

extrenm(54) wrote:
I think this is a bit harsh. You make it seem like CSm are totally outclassed right now. While I do agree the codex is showing its age, its by no means a weak book.

maybe it is. I'm aggravated that as a dedicated chaos player (for 10 years now, I guess) I have, for the first time I can remember, a book that I dont want to play pretty much at all. I think it is a weak book....

Alot of points have been made, but let me address one in particular. People have been talking about how Berzerkers will get slaughtered by
most other armies tier 1 CC units. This is true. But the question is, if they will get wiped out, why are you fighting other top tier CC units
with Berzerkers?

well you've got to fight them with somebody..... or else you cant play the book as an up close army. but thats what they're supposed to do. the only other
tactics are a flexible army, which has its own problems, and a shooty army, which csm arent very good at. the book just lacks focus.

In my opionion, berzerkers should be used agianst non-dedicated assault units, and only thrown against really good assault
units when you have overwhelming force. Otherwise, the shooty elements of your army should focus on anything that is too deadly in hth
to try and fight with. Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can
excel in.

well yeah thats what you end up having to do because you cant fight up close against the best stuff..... even codex marines have stronger
assault stuff than csm. to me this is not right. chaos has always been stronger in assault than codex....

I regularly play agaisnt space wloves, and this happes quite often. If I blindly rushed at the Thunderwolves and wolf lord, the berzerkers
would get killed pretty quickly. But if you soften the unit up and then charge, berzerkers can get the job done. Essentially, berzerkers are
not the "end all doom unit" when it comes to CC, but are a very helpful CC unit that fits into the CSM codex and fulfils a necessary CC role.
While they lose handily to charging trygons or wolf lords, a berzerker unit can decimate a unit of boyz, gaunts, or even vanilla marines on the
charge. When used in this role, I feel they work very well.

yeah they're ok in some circumstances. thunderwolves or genestealers reck face in all those situations too. I dont know. berserkers are like
codex assault marines - they're just doomed to always be outclassed by other army's assault elements. again, they have been almost from
the beginning. they're solid assaulters, but nothing more.

As for the topic of top tier assault units, CSM daemon princes are no joke. If you run two daemon princes with wings and whatever marks you want, you have two mobile powerful assault MCs, that when used in tandem, can put a hurting on most of the things in the 40k universe.

well speaking from experience here, a pair of slaanesh demon princes will lose to alot of dedicated close combat hqs right now, because alot of them have access to a 3++ saves in addition to crazy attacks high toughness, initiative, and wounds. the demon princes just have high initiative and a 5++ save. even a pair of them will get regularly mauled by a well-kitted out wolf lord or by vulkan etc. for the hq of a close up army this is a pretty sad situation. It would be different if, like in the last book, demon princes could take demon weapons....


Automatically Appended Next Post:










To me the basic problem with the codex is mobility, not the quality of its assault troops. if your opponent can deprive you of your mobility, you cant do a whole lot, and since every fething guy has to be in a slow rhino with paper thin army its not that hard. I like striking quickly and in overwhelming force at particular places in the battlefield. it wins games. chaos cant do it.

Being forced to rely on rhino's game after game does blow goats. If your not in a rhino, your in a raider, on a bike or a raptor, and most people are a bit iffy on them. Oh and my landraider is a Panzer IV next to a Loyalists Tiger- with 3 different flavours!

It's not so much the "power" or lack of it that kills the codex for me... its the fact its so damn boring! Ooo yay, kents in rhino's with XXX (insert your HS choice/s here) and YYY(insert your elites choice/s here).

AbaddonFidelis wrote:every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:

1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus

what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF

1) Sad but true chaos has no psychic defenses, which is a bitter subject for long term tzeentch players that remember having psychic defense in the past. There are 2 mitigating factors for this weakness. First off most chaos armies are mechanized, and the deadliest of the psychic powers don't work on Rhinos. Second we are the entire reason why psychic defense is so damn important. When people say an army needs psychic defense it's because of us, and more specifically our ability to lash units into a cluster and pie them to death. Chaos players who complain about a lack of psychic defense must realize we are the bump in the night, the codex that everybody fears to face without psychic defense.

2) Not true. Our rhinos are as good as other MEQ. Smurfs, team jacob, and team edward can't take havocs or combi meltas on their rhinos, and they would all love combi meltas. Nobody else has combi melta rhinos, and anybody should love the option of choosing between a combi melta or havoc. We're not the most mobile army in the game, but we do have good mobility.

3) We don't have any top tier assault units, but we are good in an assault. The fact is on a point for point basis all of our good units are good in an assault. Because our entire army is good in an assault we can beat most armies in CC, which is one of the reasons I argue that we don't need khorne zerkers.

4) We have good heavy support. Defilers, oblits, and havocs are fine. Havocs are a little overpriced in comparison to some codex creep issues, but it's only a few points and people rarely play with more than 1 squad of them. We're not tier 1 shooting, but we have good long ranged firepower.

5) I couldn't disagree more. Lash princes, nilla marines, Plague marines, Rhinos, SGD, Oblits, Defilers, and havocs all have great synergy together. The end result is a old codex still produces a competitive combined arms list.

The real str of the current chaos codex is it's flexibility. Khorne berserkers are an inflexible unit in a codex that needs flexibility to remain competitive.

1. well they're mechanized till the rhinos get wiped. it helps yes but everyone's mechanized so it doesnt help that much. if you're playing chaos you still have to fight against other chaos armies with scary psychic powers.....

2. combi-meltas on the rhino are good, no doubt, but they dont make the rhino any faster and they dont improve the army's mobility. I'm not sure havocs are anything to scream about but really its beside the point. its how fast the transports move, and how resilient the transports are, thats key. the guard codex put the last nails in the coffin of the rhino rush, and when the casket slammed shut we, the chaos players, were on the inside. the last codices have consistently had mobility options that were unavailable to their predecessors for just this reason. game designers recognize that it improves play balance if codices have multiple ways of delivering the goods. as long as chaos is stuck with slow, easy to kill rhinos in an edition where everyone else can deep strike out flank get a fast transport take a jump pack etc etc it will be a crap codex

3. the army's advantage in assault is that it tends to roll an awful lot of dice. the increasing prevalance of feel no pain and high toughness is making a bad joke out of the volume of attack strategy in general. in 5th what you need is re-rolls, power weapons, and improved stat lines. rolling more dice just means you have more attacks for the thunder wolves or fnp assault marines (or whatever) to ignore. I disagree that the army is good in assault. The army used to be good in assault. but the rest of the game has moved past their primary advantage in assault, which is a bunch of gimpy str 4 init 4 attacks that dont reroll anything and dont ignore armor.

4. we have as much ranged shooting as any other army I guess. obliterators are fine but instant death will continue to make them overpriced at 75 points a piece. sticking them in cover used to be a good answer, but since there's so much stuff that ignores cover now..... the only really resilient unit that chaos can draw on for shooting is the overpriced havoc squad. everyone else is finding it increasingly harder to stay alive in a game where guns that are ap1, ignore cover, inflict instant death, etc etc are increasingly common. not that chaos should ideally be blasting its foes apart at range in any case.

5. to review why I think this codex lacks focus.... what is its primary strength? psychic powers? no.... long range shooting? no... short range shooting? no.... assaults? no.... mobility? no.... the lash-plague-oblit army is a gimmick and always was. while it can still pull wins it seems pretty clear to me that, in light of the kind of stuff that it has to go up against, its getting less and less viable all the time. I dont think that flexibility is really a strength at all. what a good army needs to do is commit to a strategy and do it better than any other army. sisters and flame attacks, guard and shooting, blood angels and assaults, space wolves and missile launcher spam, etc. these strategies win because the army that employs them can focus on doing its 1 thing better than anyone else.

AF

I must state that from my experience, zerkers are situational at best. Their initial assault is beautiful, but in sustained combat, they seem to start falling quickly. I have problems with them vs orks, and have stopped fielding them against the green tide entirely. I think they may work if I really soften the greenies up first, though, and am very careful about picking my fights. You can't just use them as an end-all solution to assaults, though. Packing a Khorne Chaos Lord with daemon weapon in with them does some awesome shock and awe damage, though, so there's always that. Terrain would also have a lot to do with their effectiveness IMO. We play on a table that's pretty open, and I think that in a city fight environment, or any other terrain with heavy LOS blockage, they would be WAY more effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, yes, you NEED to have these guys in a rhino. I pack a havok launcher on the rhino and have it fall back and rain hell after I dump them. And the Codex is fine. It gives you a LOT of options. It's up to you to learn how to use them properly.

A codex doesn't need to be top codex in a single area to win. Space wolves and CSM are prime examples. Neither chaos nor space wolves out shoots an IG gunline or even Tau. Neither chaos nor space wolves out CC's BA or Tyranids. Both are competitive combined arms armies that have never depended on being the single best army at 1 aspect of the game. Being the single best army at 1 aspect of the game doesn't win tournaments, just ask any Tau player. Their old codex can still out shoot any army in the game, they always have been able to, they always will be able to out shoot people, and they will never be a good tournament army because they completely give up 1 aspect of the game to master another aspect.

Many chaos players like to complain that space wolves have a newer better codex and cry that chaos can no longer compete. To that all I have to say is chaos still frequently places top 3 in tournaments, and still wins tournaments. Chaos has an impressive 2004 tournament top 3 record. The same goes for the years 2005,2006,2007,2008,2009, and most importantly 2010. Thanks to codex creep most army books are like world class athletes aging in dog years, so it's incredibly impressive for chaos to still compete and win after 6 years of age. Our codex is the all time champ at winning tournaments, it's aged a bit and past it's prime, but amazingly it's still a contender. Just look at the top 5/top 10 from large tournaments and chaos has always been there, and we're still there. The one thing you don't see however is Khorne Berserkers in the army lists of those winning armies.

I second what Munga said; they can do some horrific things when they charge, but more and more I've noticed they really NEED that charge to decisively win the combat. I know it sounds obvious "duh all units are better on the charge LMAO LOOSR" but its even more apparent wiht berzerkers, as we pay a premium for a bonus (Furious Charge) that only even works if we charge.

I think when people see the FC+WS5+2A base they assume Zerkers are some kind of super killy mega hammer unit...and while they can be against some armies, especially those without adequate CC specialists, they really are used best as counter-chargers; believe it or not, I feel its best to NOT charge the first enemy seen; instead we have to think of the mas our insurance. ex "Well hopefully I can shoot down all those Genestealers before they get to my squishy Marines... sh*t... well a least I have a Rhino full of Zerkers to finish em' off after this squad gets munched."

Yeah. Just my opinion.

I think people are looking at Berserkers the wrong way.

Good/Bad....who cares...My Lord Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows!


Seriously though, I've had my share of serious competetive lists. Just for fun I knocked up a Themed "World Eaters" list that I've been playing on Vassal.

6 games in now, undefeated with some really tough/enjoyable games....and its fun as hell. Just today I managed to stomp a 15 missle launcher Space Wolf list...amazingly.

I'm beginning to think playing Berserkers is all "attitude". When I play the list I really dont care if I win or lose. In real life its because I know I'm outclassed army-wise, in game its because "My blood too...is welcome"!

BTW...vindicators support Meched up Berserkers REALLY well. Especially Demon Possessed ones. You know those Missle Launchers that are all the rage and in fashion nowadays, yea, Demonic Vindies think they're cute....then blast them! Much better than Oblits or even Defilers. That STR 10 Pie is just what you need to bully your opponent....on top of throwing Berserker filled rhino's at them at full speed!

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE OF KHORNE! RRRAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1. well they're mechanized till the rhinos get wiped. it helps yes but everyone's mechanized so it doesnt help that much. if you're playing chaos you still have to fight against other chaos armies with scary psychic powers.....

2. combi-meltas on the rhino are good, no doubt, but they dont make the rhino any faster and they dont improve the army's mobility. I'm not sure havocs are anything to scream about but really its beside the point. its how fast the transports move, and how resilient the transports are, thats key. the guard codex put the last nails in the coffin of the rhino rush, and when the casket slammed shut we, the chaos players, were on the inside. the last codices have consistently had mobility options that were unavailable to their predecessors for just this reason. game designers recognize that it improves play balance if codices have multiple ways of delivering the goods. as long as chaos is stuck with slow, easy to kill rhinos in an edition where everyone else can deep strike out flank get a fast transport take a jump pack etc etc it will be a crap codex

3. the army's advantage in assault is that it tends to roll an awful lot of dice. the increasing prevalance of feel no pain and high toughness is making a bad joke out of the volume of attack strategy in general. in 5th what you need is re-rolls, power weapons, and improved stat lines. rolling more dice just means you have more attacks for the thunder wolves or fnp assault marines (or whatever) to ignore. I disagree that the army is good in assault. The army used to be good in assault. but the rest of the game has moved past their primary advantage in assault, which is a bunch of gimpy str 4 init 4 attacks that dont reroll anything and dont ignore armor.

4. we have as much ranged shooting as any other army I guess. obliterators are fine but instant death will continue to make them overpriced at 75 points a piece. sticking them in cover used to be a good answer, but since there's so much stuff that ignores cover now..... the only really resilient unit that chaos can draw on for shooting is the overpriced havoc squad. everyone else is finding it increasingly harder to stay alive in a game where guns that are ap1, ignore cover, inflict instant death, etc etc are increasingly common. not that chaos should ideally be blasting its foes apart at range in any case.

5. to review why I think this codex lacks focus.... what is its primary strength? psychic powers? no.... long range shooting? no... short range shooting? no.... assaults? no.... mobility? no.... the lash-plague-oblit army is a gimmick and always was. while it can still pull wins it seems pretty clear to me that, in light of the kind of stuff that it has to go up against, its getting less and less viable all the time. I dont think that flexibility is really a strength at all. what a good army needs to do is commit to a strategy and do it better than any other army. sisters and flame attacks, guard and shooting, blood angels and assaults, space wolves and missile launcher spam, etc. these strategies win because the army that employs them can focus on doing its 1 thing better than anyone else.

AF

1) doesn't EVERY mech army have that problem? kill the transports and they will lose. CSM Rhinos arn't any easier to kill then loyalist rhinos.

2) CSM rhinos arn't any slower then other rhinos. IG pretty much screw over most other codexs too.

3) Partially true, but loads of dice is still a decent way of getting past FNP. Terminators are cheaper then other races and come with PWs standard to boot. cheap PWs for those FNP assault marines.

5) lack of focus? well, every unit is decent in CC. and the army has some short ranged shooting ability. sounds alot like Codex Marines if you ask me.

I think that's a confirmed case closed on the zerkers. Everyone seems to agree that they can pour on the hurt if given a chance, but sustained assault is where they go down. They're also too expensive to just use as cannon fodder. I'm thinking about getting some spawns for that job. They just need to draw fire from my havocs, so the way they charge straight ahead is not really an issue. Maybe four of them....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't forget all the other tools we have. Why are people focusing so much on assault with csm? Granted I started playing in 5th, so maybe things have changed, but I love blast and template weapons. There's not much more in your face than a ten man double flamer CSM squad.[list] Footslogging, you can wear them down from range, then move in for the burn and finish in assault. That's my counter for boyz, at least. With few ML and AC shots from the havocs, of course.

I think people are looking at Berserkers the wrong way.

Good/Bad....who cares...My Lord Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows!


Seriously though, I've had my share of serious competetive lists. Just for fun I knocked up a Themed "World Eaters" list that I've been playing on Vassal.

6 games in now, undefeated with some really tough/enjoyable games....and its fun as hell. Just today I managed to stomp a 15 missle launcher Space Wolf list...amazingly.

I'm beginning to think playing Berserkers is all "attitude". When I play the list I really dont care if I win or lose. In real life its because I know I'm outclassed army-wise, in game its because "My blood too...is welcome"!

BTW...vindicators support Meched up Berserkers REALLY well. Especially Demon Possessed ones. You know those Missle Launchers that are all the rage and in fashion nowadays, yea, Demonic Vindies think they're cute....then blast them! Much better than Oblits or even Defilers. That STR 10 Pie is just what you need to bully your opponent....on top of throwing Berserker filled rhino's at them at full speed!

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE OF KHORNE! RRRAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Totally agree. After a few games with "real" lists I love to just decompress and have a little fun with a zerker army. Even more fun is going undefeated against my friends Blood Angels with said list! Hilariously he thinks Berzerkers are superior to everything in his codex save death company and sang guard. Funny right?

Munga wrote: Everyone seems to agree that they can pour on the hurt if given a chance, but sustained assault is where they go down.

I dunno, WS 5 and A 2 with 2 CCW's go's a long way in a sustained attack.

You just got to be smart with berserkers. They like to tackle things that ARENT dedicated Close combat, OR maybe close combat, but light armour and/or lower initiative.

If the target doesnt fall into those catagories, whats so difficult about softening them up with other elements of your army? Vindies, Havoc's, Oblits? Or maybe hit them with a Daemon Prince or two?

Be smart, trouble with high initiative hard hitters for CC? Do they have grenades? No? Why not park the Zerkers in that terrain right there? WS 5 and 3 attacks apeice going first isnt shabby. Get creative.

Trouble with a squad of 4 or so Thunderwolves? I doubt very much that the Wolves will survive if charged by two full 10 man squads of berserkers. "They'll never get the charge off, the T-Wolves are faster!" Tell that to my last opponent! Get creative with Rhino Tactics folks. If you're not GOOD with Rhino's, playing Berserkers is that much harder. Use them to block avenues of movement, put dozer's and EA on them, force opponents to CHARGE them to destroy them....forcing your Berserkers to deploy out of the destroyed Rhino...WELL WITHIN CHARGE RANGE FOR RETALIATION. Seen the old old westerns with covered wagons forming a circle to protect against indian ambushes....yea, rhino's do that VERY well...especially around an objective.

Learn Rhino tactics, play berserkers, have fun, get better at 40k!

KILL, MAIM, BUUURRRNNN!

I love Berzerkers.

You say they are not good against enemy CC units?

10 Zerkers kill 5 Hammerterminators in 2 Phases with 2 casualties. Yes they are more expensive, but this is a good performance. Better than many other CC units.

if you engage 4 TWC with Lord with 10 Zerkers you are a fool. 4TWC with Lord cost about the double amount of points if not more. You should rather throw 20 to 30 zerkers into this bunch. lets see who wins^^

They can hold against most CC opponents very well if you use them correctly. Of course you need the charge, but then the whole BA Book must be crappy, because they have to charge too.
if you are on high points, you can use 2 land raiders to shield all your rhinos and get past any missile launchers.

Most important: Drive as long as you can and dont charge first if you dont have to. Wait until the enemy dismounts or isolate one target at a time and shield your actions with raider/s.

World eaters are a viable army. I love to play them on VASSAL to get a funny exception to my guards and they perform very well. You just have to make a proper armoured assault and you have a heavy bunch of local superiority on the field.

You seem to expect too much from the single Zerker hm? Think a squad of 10 runs through an army? No they dont. They get bogged down by most opponents. If you assault run at least 2 squads into the target (multi assaulting as much as you can) And have some MCs up the sleeve to throw into certain spots to do decisive damage there. Kharn is also a very good option. Hitting everything on 2+ with 2d6 armour pen and s6 on the charge is great.

But even in regular chaos armies some zerkers in a land raider can be very good for an objective grabbing final charge. Just use them to hunt troop choices and you will see that enemy troop choices fall quickly to their momentum.

I feel like the bottom line is, that there are certain times when having a unit with a lot of WS5 S5 I5 attacks on the charge is AMAZINGLY helpful and Berzerkers perform that role. If you can play tactically, and set up a charge or counter charge, berzerkers can fill a role an extremely important role in the chaos codex that no other unit can.

Templar
1 all space marine codices have rhinos that look more or less the same except ba but only CSM and Templars iirc have to rely on raiders and rhinos exclusively for their mobility. The lack of drop pods fast rhinos jump pack troops etc means chaos has to move forward 12" a turn and hope for the best. Not very fast... Or subtle... Or flexible... Or good.

2 other codices have options that let them work around guards overwhelming firepower. Guard gunlines are in fact the reason I don't run CSM rhino-bound armies anymore. Plating for a draw all the time gets old. Codex bike armies and ba doa armies both handle that situation immensely better bc they don't rely on a rhino to deliver the goods.

3 if termies had stronger mobility options they'd be world class. How about a crusader or some other way to deliver them more than 5 at a time? Theyre good though no doubt.

4 focus means more than being decent. Decent fighters get wiped by great fighter. When everyone is bringing their A game being decent isn't good enough. It means your guys are outclassed. If the best you can say about a unit is that it's decent then leave it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Schaden

Well I don't agree that CSM are a winning codex or that space wolves aren't a top tier close combat army. Thunderwolves have some very important advantages including mobility high toughness and wound allocation options that make them stellar in close combat. There are very few units in the game that they can't handle in close combat so I would point to space wolves as a good instance of what I mean about focus and mobility. It's true you need options to make a good list but what I mean by flexibility as a strategic objective is this idea that you can make an army that isn't a master of any 1 area and win. Im just not seeing that in my own games. Guard players don't win by investing in close combat options. That just detracts from their ability to shoot. Vulkan armies don't take alot of lascannons, it just detracts from their ability to melt and flame things. Having back up options is necessary only when you can't completely donate in 1 area. If they're necessary and you can still make a good army then great but that's s weakness that has to be made up for by a strength somewhere else.

As far as tournament results yes they continue to place but they aren't winning. Im just opposed in principle to playing an army that can't break out of 2nd place even when people use a build like plague-lash-oblit spam that is completely out of step with the background of the game and just looks bizarre to deploy. Maybe I'm missing something about the way those games are playing out.....? I mean whet specifically do you think these armies are doing that overcome the problems I mentioned?

so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?

Sacrificing lives of a planet to Grandfather Nurgle...I don't see Edward, nor Jacob Marines doing that...

Otherwise, it's just local meta, skill, luck, army compositions, terrain, TO rulings on rules, etc. Specifically? I can only think that it's a well run oiled machine that's been out for a while and as much as it's a disadvantedge to be a standard to measure against Theoryhammerwise... it does what it does well when given the chance...and the player wielding them just has to jocky into that position.

Or... in your point of view, it's the opponents' game to lose if they are running Edward or Jacob Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tko75 wrote:so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?

I wouldn't call running at the gun line too good. But meching them up is still a good thing, if at least to saturate the field with targets that HAVE to be dealt with.

tko75 wrote:so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?

berserkers are fine as troops. plague marines and normal undivided guys are both more flexible and plague marines at least are definitely stronger, but as troops go berserkers are fine. just be sure to compensate for zerkers' lack of anti-tank elsewhere in your army bc zerkers are pretty worthless against tanks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Didnt CSM win the Philadelphia Ard Boyz Finals?

maybe someone has a list of recent tournament results that we can look at. placing or even winning in one event isnt by itself convincing. what matters is how the book places over a broad spectrum of games and environments.

I read the whole thing!

I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.

Earlier in the thread he and others were getting a little hung up on the fact that breserkers can't beat every 'premiere' CC unit in CC. It is a troop choice, and yes... that makes a difference. 10 berserkers in a rhino can confidently head over to an objective, comfortable in their rhino until they lose it, then hop into cover and wait for the action to start. Or in a different scenario might be much more aggressive and charge something else. There are ample charge targets in most games that they can handily win against.

Abaddon points out that berserkers are slipping a little bit (not a ton) in comparison to modern dex 'choppy' troops. As new dexes come out, more and more the authors are slipping in feel no pain, armor save re-rolls, or other tweaks that kick up unit survivability to anything not a power weapon. Blood angels have the cheap and easy sanguinary priest, dark eldar wyches can easily steal a pain token from a haemonculous, genestealers will certainly have a nearby catalyst, smart space wolves can grab a banner for their grey hunters which give them an effective 66% strength feel no pain along with an increase in offensive output for a turn.

Berserkers have their WS5, they have their 3 attacks standing still, but they just have their 3+ save, and their non power weapon attacks are doing less and less to more and more units as new dexes come out. They aren't "dead" yet, I would take a unit of 10 certainly if I was playing "serious" CSM...

But CSM have another problem that Abaddon mentioned and then was shouted down. A lot of good responses came talking about properly supporting berserkers. Transports need to be opened for them, anti-infantry firepower, particularly plasma guns need to be shaken, stunned or just killed off to pave a way for them, and CSMs fire power and maneuverability is showing its age at least as much as its close combat ability.

An ork or nid army, or even a hybrid IG army knows that chaos isn't going to be able to get around them, either vertically enveloping or using speed. They also know that the only way they can get into their front lines quickly is with land raiders or rhinos.

Give chaos a thunderwolf cavalry type speed element, or give them excellent jump infantry, or usable bikes. Maybe even a drop pod. In the absence of obscene amounts of shooting, which I don't think has a very chaos flavor, They need a first wave assault element, sturdy and quick that can really press the issue right away. In that world where those units exist, then berserkers would be a great supporter of that attack or they can participate in other localized combats that aren't necessarily against enemy death stars.

Please, please give us nasty, speedy chaos spawn units and even nastier consistent possessed units. Excellent plastic models are already in place, just write the damn book!

Ok, so back to the OP question. I think berserkers have almost all of the makings of a fine troops choice for chaos. But they are otherwise surrounded by the elements of loyalist armies that most loyalists leave at home. Real support either in shooting or preferably with premiere close combat units eludes them. Can you play and win with CSM? Obviously, yes. Is it easier to win and do you have a more consistent list with less blind spots with a modern codex? Yes.

I love you.

minigun762 wrote:

Is there any big tactical decision to make with them beyond what to charge first?

No. If your thinking about what to do with bezerkers, I'd say Khorne might not be your bag...