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purplefood wrote:The captain-general can kick people out to make room for himself though...
Though i agree with the point about the Grand Provost Marshal...

He can't kick people out of the Palace only the Throne room. His entire Jurisdiction is one room. It's an important room but still...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

purplefood wrote:The captain-general can kick people out to make room for himself though...
Though i agree with the point about the Grand Provost Marshal...

He can't kick people out of the Palace only the Throne room. His entire Jurisdiction is one room. It's an important room but still...

I swear he ha the power to force himself onto the coucil of the High Lords...
Like force the to give him a seat on it.

purplefood wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

purplefood wrote:The captain-general can kick people out to make room for himself though...
Though i agree with the point about the Grand Provost Marshal...

He can't kick people out of the Palace only the Throne room. His entire Jurisdiction is one room. It's an important room but still...

I swear he ha the power to force himself onto the coucil of the High Lords...
Like force the to give him a seat on it.

He physically has more than enough power to pick up another Lord and steal his chair. Other than that, no.

There is no highest Lord of Terra, the system is build so that no one has to much power. They even implemented new rules after Goge's little game with Astartes and Mechanicus.

But if someone must have the highest authority it should be the Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes, because they have no interest in power or territory - they are like Astartes and only look to serve the Mankind and the Emperor.

Do anybody know how often they meet and discuss about the next course of the Imperium?

I think the point is he could march into the council room with some Custodes and erm clear some of the seats there, albeit there may be some scraps left after he is finished

purplefood wrote:The captain-general can kick people out to make room for himself..

Well with a single round house you know who can kick everyone out?

Brother Coa wrote:There is no highest Lord of Terra, the system is build so that no one has to much power. They even implemented new rules after Goge's little game with Astartes and Mechanicus.

But if someone must have the highest authority it should be the Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes, because they have no interest in power or territory - they are like Astartes and only look to serve the Mankind and the Emperor.

Do anybody know how often they meet and discuss about the next course of the Imperium?

Pretty sure its a full time job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wardragoon wrote:I think the point is he could march into the council room with some Custodes and erm clear some of the seats there, albeit there may be some scraps left after he is finished

He would only do that if the Council drafted a memo saying "The Emperor must die". Overall he's not that concerned with what the silly humans are doing to themselves, only with the safety of the Emperor.

That wasn't my point. I vaguely remember reading something saying that he could force out a High Lord to make room for himself...

IIRC the Custodes are the ultimate authority for Terra itself (being the Emperor's place of residence), not just the Throne room, and the Imperial Palace, along with the Astronominican, is very much their jurisdiction if I'm remembering correctly, even if they leave the day to day operation to others and rarely take any interest in Galactic affairs outside of those pertaining to the Emperor's phsyical protection and the Astronominican.

Anyway, the point about the Captain-General of the Custodes was not so much that he routinely wields such power, only that, should the need arise, there's not much anyone can do if the Captain-General of the Custodes marches in, stands up, and says "This is happening...deal with it" or "That's not going to happen". The Ecclesiarchy's moral authority is as nothing next to his, the Inquisition can't do anything to him, and who else is going to defy him?

For most things and normal operations, I'd say it's probably a struggle between the Administratum and Mechanicus.

Uh, astronomicon?

Keeps stuff moving?

Like assassins? Or paperwork? Or machines? Or priests? Or captured heretics? Or troops? Or fleets? Or cop? Gives navigators a job?

Vaktathi wrote:IIRC the Custodes are the ultimate authority for Terra itself (being the Emperor's place of residence), not just the Throne room, and the Imperial Palace, along with the Astronominican, is very much their jurisdiction if I'm remembering correctly, even if they leave the day to day operation to others and rarely take any interest in Galactic affairs outside of those pertaining to the Emperor's phsyical protection and the Astronominican.

Anyway, the point about the Captain-General of the Custodes was not so much that he routinely wields such power, only that, should the need arise, there's not much anyone can do if the Captain-General of the Custodes marches in, stands up, and says "This is happening...deal with it" or "That's not going to happen". The Ecclesiarchy's moral authority is as nothing next to his, the Inquisition can't do anything to him, and who else is going to defy him?

Who's going to listen to him? He can not tell The Lord Militant to invade planet such and such or tell the Astronomicon to burn a little brighter. He can't even tell the Fabricator-General to put more toilet paper in the Custodes locker room.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Who's going to listen to him? He can not tell The Lord Militant to invade planet such and such or tell the Astronomicon to burn a little brighter. He can't even tell the Fabricator-General to put more toilet paper in the Custodes locker room.

I'm fairly certain if the guy who is in in the physical presence of the Emperor on a daily basis, and is more physically powerful and wields scarier weapons than even the Space Marines, and who defended the Imperial Palace during the Horus Heresy, and has been navigating the intrigues of Imperial politics for thousands of years (remember that the Custodes are not like the Space Marines, they do take an interest in the politics and intrigues of the various organizations and nobles in order to carry out their duties), whose sole duty is the protection of the Emperor's physical form, with the authority to do literally whatever he wants to whomever he wants and the Inquisition isn't even allowed to send a sternly worded letter to him about it, walks into a room and tells the Lord Militant that a certain planet needs to be invaded, it's going to happen. Likewise, if he needs TP, the Fabricator General is going get it for him. Because if the Captain-General of the Custodes is asking for it, it's probably rather important.

Vaktathi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Who's going to listen to him? He can not tell The Lord Militant to invade planet such and such or tell the Astronomicon to burn a little brighter. He can't even tell the Fabricator-General to put more toilet paper in the Custodes locker room.

I'm fairly certain if the guy who is in in the physical presence of the Emperor on a daily basis, and is more physically powerful and wields scarier weapons than even the Space Marines, and who defended the Imperial Palace during the Horus Heresy, and has been navigating the intrigues of Imperial politics for thousands of years (remember that the Custodes are not like the Space Marines, they do take an interest in the politics and intrigues of the various organizations and nobles in order to carry out their duties), whose sole duty is the protection of the Emperor's physical form, with the authority to do literally whatever he wants to whomever he wants and the Inquisition isn't even allowed to send a sternly worded letter to him about it, walks into a room and tells the Lord Militant that a certain planet needs to be invaded, it's going to happen. Likewise, if he needs TP, the Fabricator General is going get it for him. Because if the Captain-General of the Custodes is asking for it, it's probably rather important.

I can't agree. You making it sound as if The Captain-General is physically intimidating other Lords. He won't get far like that. He wouldn't even get a seat if he conducted himself like that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Who's going to listen to him? He can not tell The Lord Militant to invade planet such and such or tell the Astronomicon to burn a little brighter. He can't even tell the Fabricator-General to put more toilet paper in the Custodes locker room.

I'm fairly certain if the guy who is in in the physical presence of the Emperor on a daily basis, and is more physically powerful and wields scarier weapons than even the Space Marines, and who defended the Imperial Palace during the Horus Heresy, and has been navigating the intrigues of Imperial politics for thousands of years (remember that the Custodes are not like the Space Marines, they do take an interest in the politics and intrigues of the various organizations and nobles in order to carry out their duties), whose sole duty is the protection of the Emperor's physical form, with the authority to do literally whatever he wants to whomever he wants and the Inquisition isn't even allowed to send a sternly worded letter to him about it, walks into a room and tells the Lord Militant that a certain planet needs to be invaded, it's going to happen. Likewise, if he needs TP, the Fabricator General is going get it for him. Because if the Captain-General of the Custodes is asking for it, it's probably rather important.

I can't agree. You making it sound as if The Captain-General is physically intimidating other Lords. He won't get far like that. He wouldn't even get a seat if he conducted himself like that.

Not so much intimidation, but rather an imposing respect and authority borne from a singluarly important duty that really one just can't say "no" to and that nobody can interfere with. Which of course can, if necessary, be backed up by ultimate governing power over the planet and of course the physical violence that a super soldier superior even to the Astartes is capable of if absolutely required. It's one of those things where it's like "well, if he's demanding this, he's probably got a very good reason, and as such probably knows a hell of a lot more about this than we do". It's also not like the High Lords could conduct business on Terra if he were to decide he did not want them on the planet any longer (not a likely case, but still...)

It is very difficult to see anyone not acquiescing to the wishes of the commander of the Emperor's personal bodyguard, and the closest thing to a physical voice that the Emperor still has (unlike the "spiritual" voice of the Ecclesiarchy) unless they have some sort of information that would change his mind, should the Captain-General choose to force an issue. Are you really going to deny/disagree with someone who helped unite Terra, forge the Imperium in the Great Crusade, fought at the Emperor's side and is in the physical presence of the God Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne on a daily basis if they come to you and say "this must be done" or "this must not be done"?

I'm not saying that for everything the High Lords do, the Captain General dictates everything or whatnot. If it's something like "should we fund construction project 91898530298432423535 in the Gamma Draconis XXIII system?" he probably won't care, or would defer to others. He probably rarely has much to do with anything he doesn't think effects his duty or likely is in the majority on most votes almost all the time. However should push come to shove, above any other High Lord, if the Captain-General wanted something done, his will would probably take precedence should it come to that. No other High Lord can lay claim to the same sort of legitimacy of moral authority, and few could compete with a call to aid the likes of which the Custodes could raise.

If the Master of the Administratum, High Ecclesiarch, or the Fabricator General were to get into a poltical tug of war with the Captain-General, it's hard to see where others would be willing to take their side over the Custodes, and it's not hard to see where the loyalties of the Astartes and most other Imperial military factions would lie if it came to open violence. Who would fight for the Ecclesiarchy against the most holy bodyguards and protectors of, who have actually seen and been in the presenceor, and control access to, the Imperial Corporalis itself for instance?

Vaktathi wrote:It's one of those things where it's like "well, if he's demanding this, he's probably got a very good reason, and as such probably knows a hell of a lot more about this than we do". It's also not like the High Lords could conduct business on Terra if he were to decide he did not want them on the planet any longer (not a likely case, but still...)

While being the Commander of the Adaptus Custodes is probably one of the most honourable positions in all the Imperium. I can't see that he really carries much authority. I don't know what exactly it takes to become a High Lord of Terra, but I imagine half the counsel is comprised of the most politically shrewd, scheming, backstabbing megalomaniacs in all the galaxy. I don't think many of them are going to be swayed from their own political agendas by the emperors bodyguard, no mater how how honourable, or even correct he was.

Are you really going to deny/disagree with someone who helped unite Terra, forge the Imperium in the Great Crusade, fought at the Emperor's side and is in the physical presence of the God Emperor of Mankind

Wait! Where are you getting this from? It sounds awesome that the Commander of the Adaptus Custodes might have fought to unite Terra, but this is the first I've heard of it. What official fluff says that he is immortal?

The Fabricator-General probably has ancient Dark Age of Technology herb cultivating techniques, so he is the highest. 100% THC, baby, yeah!

Smacks wrote:
While being the Commander of the Adaptus Custodes is probably one of the most honourable positions in all the Imperium. I can't see that he really carries much authority. I don't know what exactly it takes to become a High Lord of Terra, but I imagine half the counsel is comprised of the most politically shrewd, scheming, backstabbing megalomaniacs in all the galaxy. I don't think many of them are going to be swayed from their own political agendas by the emperors bodyguard, no mater how how honourable, or even correct he was.

The Custodes fluff specifically has them maintaining intelligence on the various organizations of the Imperium and its noble houses and engaging in infiltration operations on terra and the like, engaging in at least some degree of political intrigue in order to ensure that the various political games bring no harm to the Emperor himself, operating in ways the Space Marines just won't.

Wait! Where are you getting this from? It sounds awesome that the Commander of the Adaptus Custodes might have fought to unite Terra, but this is the first I've heard of it. What official fluff says that he is immortal?

Their creation process is far more advanced and resource intensive than even Space Marines, (SM's are basically a streamlined and stripped down Custode) and it's not really like the Custodes really do recruiting, so if they're still around, it's hard to see them not being functionally immortal, especially being the Emperor's handcrafted bodyguard with access to technologies not seen in the Imperium since the height of the Great Crusade.

Space Marines are not streamlined and stripped down Custodes, they are basically mini-versions of their primarchs. The modifications done to the primarchs at the cellular level were re-created as organs that could be implanted into capable hosts.

IIRC, Custodes predate the Primarchs.

Omegus wrote:Space Marines are not streamlined and stripped down Custodes, they are basically mini-versions of their primarchs. The modifications done to the primarchs at the cellular level were re-created as organs that could be implanted into capable hosts.

IIRC, Custodes predate the Primarchs.

The process used to create the Space Marines from the Primarchs is a stripped down and streamlined process from what was done to make the Custodes from the Emperor. Yes they predate the Primarchs, but the process to create the Space Marines was adapted from that used for the Custodes, though is toned down quite a bit.

I was re-reading some parts of Realms of Chaos yesterday, and I seem to recall it stating differently. When I get home from work, I'll pull up the appropriate passage.

Omegus wrote:I was re-reading some parts of Realms of Chaos yesterday, and I seem to recall it stating differently. When I get home from work, I'll pull up the appropriate passage.

The old, old RT book? I haven't read that in a long while, I'm basing most of this off of the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book from ~2006 that details the Siege of Terra and whatnot and the stuff like the Imperial Webway beneath the palace that took most of the Emperor's & the Custodes attention/efforts during the siege.

Yeah they are basically a kind of master crafted Space Marine. One that's uniquely built, rather than mass produced from the Geneseed of a Primarch.

But I don't see how that is evidence that they are significantly longer-lived than Space Marines; I think it is quite a leap to say it makes them functionally immortal. I can't find any mention in the fluff of this being the case, though it does mention their training. I think that points more towards them dying and being replaced just like Marines (albeit at a slower rate).

As for the Custodes political clout... I have no doubt that they a learned and adept politicians and diplomats. But understanding power and being in a position of power are not the same thing.

One thing I think the High Commander of the Custodes does have going for him is that he pretty much has the Imperial Fists at his beck and call. I imagine most Space Marine Chapters would side with him over any other High Lord (Including even the master of the inquisition). Space Wolves would for sure. Because they share a common purpose, being loyalty to the Emperor.

Space Marines are functionally immortal.

Smacks wrote:Yeah they are basically a kind of master crafted Space Marine. One that's uniquely built, rather than mass produced from the Geneseed of a Primarch.

But I don't see how that is evidence that they are significantly longer-lived than Space Marines; I think it is quite a leap to say it makes them functionally immortal. I can't find any mention in the fluff of this being the case, though it does mention their training. I think that points more towards them dying and being replaced just like Marines (albeit at a slower rate).

As for the Custodes political clout... I have no doubt that they a learned and adept politicians and diplomats. But understanding power and being in a position of power are not the same thing.

One thing I think the High Commander of the Custodes does have going for him is that he pretty much has the Imperial Fists at his beck and call. I imagine most Space Marine Chapters would side with him over any other High Lord (Including even the master of the inquisition). Space Wolves would for sure. Because they share a common purpose, being loyalty to the Emperor.

They all share that purpose. Even Goge Vandire thought he was.

Vandire is also a good example of the Custodes exercising their ultimate power.



Custodes: Ok, this is getting silly and threatening the protection of the Emperor himself, let's go do something about this High Lord

Brides of the Emperor: Halt, we will try to stop you, for Vandire works in the name of the Emperor!

Custodes: Our Emperors, let me show you them...



20 mins later...



Brides of the Emperor: So about that Vandire guy...yeah...don't worry about it, we'll go take care of it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They all share that purpose. Even Goge Vandire thought he was.

Not really, most imperial organisations are subject to Imperial hierarchy which have their own agendas. Space Marines and Custodes bypass all that an answer only to themselves and the Emperor.