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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Cocked and locked on a 1911 is for a different purpose than a DA/SA or Glock style.


Not sure what you mean by "purpose." Both the Glock and 1911 are primarily intended as fighting pistols.

In my opinion the optimal fighting pisol is a DAO, double stack, no controls, no external hammer. That's my opinion...

If somebody is experienced with a 1911, I'd suggest they go with what they know. But from a blank slate, I recommend the simple DAO pistol. I also tend to think that the popularity of 1911s is almost entirely due to nostalgia, reputation and the like. As fighting implements, they're really not all that friendly. This is a very MINOR distinction. A 1911 can certainly perform admirably as a fighting handgun, it's just not optimal.

Obviously the US military disagrees with me. They want all their sidearms to be laden with every bell and whistle possible. Grip safety, trigger safety, manual safety, decocker, etc. etc. etc. They love bells and whistles. I don't know why.

I also don't agree that a Glock is in any way more likely to accidental discharge than a 1911. On the contrary a SA trigger is far more likely to do so than a DAO. I realize there are anecdotes and monikers for ADs with Glocks, but I think they're more of a product of the "gun wars" between various factions, and less about actual reality.

And that's basically along the line with what I'm saying, which is "best fighting handgun." In that category, it's any of the top end DAO, no controls autoloaders, the Glocks/XDs/Kahrs, etc.

As I mentioned before I really don't like shooting Glocks just for the sake of shooting. If I'm doing actual combat drills, I'll train with a Glock since it's what I carry, and the satisfaction of doing the training is what I'm after. But if I'm just standing still in a lane, shooting at paper, I prefer something nicer to shoot.

The XDM is kind of like a glock clone, but with more safeties, and looks like it was designed by a dirtbike manufacturer


Well, Croatians. I actually have one of the original HS2000s. They're actually not quite as nice as the XDs that came later.

i feel that muzzle control and proper handling are the only safeties a conscientious shooter should need, but not everyone shares that view.


I tend to agree. A lot of the drills I work on are about assuring that the weapon is never pointed at onesself, even for an instant, that the finger is off the trigger unless firing, etc. There are whole rituals and muscle memory training patterns that teach proper safety, and this is really all that can be relied upon.

You may be called upon to operate a weapon that has no safety. If you rely on it to be safe, you're not a trained gun fighter.

i'd like to hear about your experiences with the kimber


I carried a Kimber Ultra Carry II for about a year.

So, re: earlier comments, it's not like I bought a Glock and decided that was the be-all end-all. I actually owned and carried many guns before I finally admitted to myself that a Glock is the correct weapon for fighting.

Anyway, it did not function flawlessly, it did have some feed issues, as most 1911s I've seen do. Usually this can be resolved by choosing the right ammo for the gun, and keeping it clean, but it lines up with the 'not all they're cracked up to be' stuff you're hearing. I'd generalize that to all 1911s, not just Kimbers, though.

If you do want a 1911, I think a Kimber is a fine choice. If you want to save some money, the Taurus PT1911 is also very good. It's one of the few 1911s I've owned/dealt with that DIDN'T have problems.

Also, yet ANOTHER reason I don't like 1911s for carry is that they've got a sharp hammer and pointy beavertail just waiting to destroy your ribs when you sit in the car, etc. etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/07 01:24:11




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The Great State of Texas

Phryxis wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "purpose." Both the Glock and 1911 are primarily intended as fighting pistols.


Different purposes. Military; concealed carry; general police work; target shooting and plinking. While a pistol may have started as a military pistol its current use may be quite different.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Different purposes. Military; concealed carry; general police work; target shooting and plinking.


Ok, but in that case I don't think the 1911 and Glock are for different purposes. They're both fighting handguns with versions for military use, police work and concealed carry.

I consider all of that "fighting," and in that capacity I consider the Glock (and similar weapons) to be the most practical and effective design/featureset.

They're not stylish, they're not especially fun to shoot, but they're very well suited to the job.



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The Great State of Texas

Phryxis wrote:
Different purposes. Military; concealed carry; general police work; target shooting and plinking.


Ok, but in that case I don't think the 1911 and Glock are for different purposes. They're both fighting handguns with versions for military use, police work and concealed carry.

I consider all of that "fighting," and in that capacity I consider the Glock (and similar weapons) to be the most practical and effective design/featureset.

They're not stylish, they're not especially fun to shoot, but they're very well suited to the job.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The concept of a semi auto with only moderate trigger pull, without an easily switchable safety to me lacks merit.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The concept of a semi auto with only moderate trigger pull, without an easily switchable safety to me lacks merit.


Do you do a lot of combat/self-defense training? That's the set of experiences that really pushed me into Glock territory.



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Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Frazzled wrote:
Phryxis wrote:
Different purposes. Military; concealed carry; general police work; target shooting and plinking.


Ok, but in that case I don't think the 1911 and Glock are for different purposes. They're both fighting handguns with versions for military use, police work and concealed carry.

I consider all of that "fighting," and in that capacity I consider the Glock (and similar weapons) to be the most practical and effective design/featureset.

They're not stylish, they're not especially fun to shoot, but they're very well suited to the job.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The concept of a semi auto with only moderate trigger pull, without an easily switchable safety to me lacks merit.


That's kind of irellevant as you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger while drawing, on any pistol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 03:05:40


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Again the one you are comfortable with.
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Has to be the SIG sauer P226 Tactical for me.

Eventus facti excusat - The outcome justifies the deed
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Phryxis wrote:
The concept of a semi auto with only moderate trigger pull, without an easily switchable safety to me lacks merit.


Do you do a lot of combat/self-defense training? That's the set of experiences that really pushed me into Glock territory.


SD training. I don't like the concept of long term carry without a safety. A safety is easy to kick off on the draw.
But we've brought over the essential and endless Glock vs. 1911 debate. Like the epic less filling! tastes great! debate, this one will never end. Both sides are right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormrider wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Phryxis wrote:
Different purposes. Military; concealed carry; general police work; target shooting and plinking.


Ok, but in that case I don't think the 1911 and Glock are for different purposes. They're both fighting handguns with versions for military use, police work and concealed carry.

I consider all of that "fighting," and in that capacity I consider the Glock (and similar weapons) to be the most practical and effective design/featureset.

They're not stylish, they're not especially fun to shoot, but they're very well suited to the job.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The concept of a semi auto with only moderate trigger pull, without an easily switchable safety to me lacks merit.


That's kind of irellevant as you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger while drawing, on any pistol.

No gak sherlock. Thats not what we're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitive Inquisitor wrote:Has to be the SIG sauer P226 Tactical for me.

Now there's a man who knows quality.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/12/08 12:54:32


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





A safety is easy to kick off on the draw.


Do you mean it's easy to disengage the manual safety as you draw?

I'd make two points:

1) It's not easier than NOT turning off the safety. It adds one more task that must be done successfully in a stressful, fast paced situation, one more variable to correctly identifying why your weapon is not going "bang" when you pull the trigger.

2) It's not just about turing the safety off. I have a Beretta M92. It's a very nice shooting gun, but the safety is on the slide, near the back. When clearing a stoppage via tap-rack-bang, it's quite easy to accidentally re-engage the safety with the racking hand. It's also very confusing. Your ability to fight will be dead in the water.

Bottom line, the safety makes the gun less reliable/usable, and it doesn't add any real safety to the gun, relative to simply not pointing it at yourself, and not putting your finger on the trigger. A proper holster will keep the weapon entirely secure, and all modern handguns have numerous safety mechanisms to prevent the weapon firing for any reason besides a pulled trigger.



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The Great State of Texas

Phryxis wrote:
A safety is easy to kick off on the draw.


Do you mean it's easy to disengage the manual safety as you draw?

I'd make two points:

1) It's not easier than NOT turning off the safety. It adds one more task that must be done successfully in a stressful, fast paced situation, one more variable to correctly identifying why your weapon is not going "bang" when you pull the trigger.

2) It's not just about turing the safety off. I have a Beretta M92. It's a very nice shooting gun, but the safety is on the slide, near the back. When clearing a stoppage via tap-rack-bang, it's quite easy to accidentally re-engage the safety with the racking hand. It's also very confusing. Your ability to fight will be dead in the water.

Bottom line, the safety makes the gun less reliable/usable, and it doesn't add any real safety to the gun, relative to simply not pointing it at yourself, and not putting your finger on the trigger. A proper holster will keep the weapon entirely secure, and all modern handguns have numerous safety mechanisms to prevent the weapon firing for any reason besides a pulled trigger.

Clearly you're a Glock owner therefore have a Gloock bias. I'm so sorry....
(Did I mention I really like Glock triggers?)

We're talking 1911 vs. Glock you heretic stick to the proper format for this dogmatic argument.
As you well know, a 1911 trigger is completely different design, and much, much faster, especially in current pistols. The modern 1911 is made for just that maneuver. Further, the safety can be disengaged while holstered, making it exactly like a glock (just better )

I'd proffer on a Beretta style the safety can be engaged or disengaged while holstered, but can be used just fine carrying wise without the safety, as the DA pull is the same as most revolvers, with follow on shots much tighter. Again its a dogmatic difference and depends on what you are personally comfortable with (just better than a Glock ).

I think we've learned a valuable lesson here. John Browning Superior, all others Inferior!




-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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