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NeutronPoison wrote:

imweasel wrote:I think you give way to much credit to stelek

I just picked him as an example of somebody who thinks he's smarter than the rest of the 40k community because of how good he thinks he is at 40k. I didn't say one way or another if I think he's right in either case :p

rep'd

It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Regardless it is an absolute fact that gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases.

It is an "absolute fact" that I am always correct and GW put cocaine in Finecast resin.

Well it was mooted that the introduction of Finecast was a rush job.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Regardless it is an absolute fact that gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases.

It is an "absolute fact" that I am always correct and GW put cocaine in Finecast resin.

Well it was mooted that the introduction of Finecast was a rush job.

I do not think that word means what you think it means, good sir. But you now gain +1 against trolls!

Am not understanding what suffering +1 against trolls actually means. Apologies for not understanding netspeak.

My understanding of the word "absolute" in this context is that the statement is undeniable, incontrovertable and totally true, without error and with no room for doubt of it's veracity. A definitive fact.

Sorry for being a sceptic. But if you claim something as being absolute, I wanna see some evidence please. Or because the claim is made on the internet I am supposed to assume it must be true? Is that how it works?

CageUF wrote:So 1/50 = ~2%.
Given a population size of 1,000,000 with a 95% confidence level and a 50 person sample size, the answer would fall between 0%-8% of the population.

You do realize that those statistics are based on more or less made up numbers and a non-randomized sample size, right? Making it pretty much the same statement as your initial post on numbers?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

My understanding of the word "absolute" in this context is that the statement is undeniable, incontrovertable and totally true, without error and with no room for doubt of it's veracity. A definitive fact.

Sorry for being a sceptic. But if you claim something as being absolute, I wanna see some evidence please. Or because the claim is made on the internet I am supposed to assume it must be true? Is that how it works?

Being skeptical of broad declarations on the net is wise but I'm surprised that you contest that "gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases". The only thing this says is multiple people joined tabletop gaming because of their experience with console/pc games. I wasn't claiming this was the main drawing factor for all/most/or even many new players, but that it is A cause.

I think it foolish to argue that there isn't some cross-over from video games to tabletop gaming. For what it is worth, every new player that I have run into that has come to tabletop gaming through this route has been 18 or under.




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Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

CageUF wrote:So 1/50 = ~2%.
Given a population size of 1,000,000 with a 95% confidence level and a 50 person sample size, the answer would fall between 0%-8% of the population.

You do realize that those statistics are based on more or less made up numbers and a non-randomized sample size, right? Making it pretty much the same statement as your initial post on numbers?

Okay where to start...

1.) You are right, I ran the numbers with a 99% confidence level, not 95%.
2.) Whether the true population is 1,000,000 or 5,000,000 doesn't matter considering the sample size and the fact that 98% of the sample group performed in the same way.
3.) Sample size doesn't need to be random, matter of fact a nice bit of statistics is determining how many people are needed to give a desired accuracy.
4.) What you apparently fail to realize is that the chance of error drops significantly when a sample reacts almost entirely in the same way.
5.) If you wanted to know how large of a sample size was needed given any distribution of answers. Well, for a population of 5 million with a margin of error of 5% and a 99% confidence level... Its 666 ( funny enough) for 1 million its 665.

CageUF wrote:
3.) Sample size doesn't need to be random, matter of fact a nice bit of statistics is determining how many people are needed to give a desired accuracy.
4.) What you apparently fail to realize is that the chance of error drops significantly when a sample reacts almost entirely in the same way.
5.) If you wanted to know how large of a sample size was needed given any distribution of answers. Well, for a population of 5 million with a margin of error of 5% and a 99% confidence level... Its 666 ( funny enough) for 1 million its 665.

I am quite aware on how confidence and tolerance levels are calculated. I use it in my work a lot, albeit not on living subjects.

But! Let's use my own sample instead then, since it does not need to be random. I have my entire gaming circle on an email list for information on events, and can thus be entirely precice, since I know all these guys. I'll just take the first 50 on the list. Out of those 50:

1. 6 do not, as far as I know, use forums actively on a weekly basis. But 5 of them have 1-3 #post accounts on a few forums and browse regularily (this is how they keep informed on events, tournaments and releases), and the last lets her boyfriend keep her updated from forums. The remaining 44 have accounts on at least one forum, many have several.
2. 12 of them have quit at least one GW game in the last two years - I have no firm idea whether that is out of disgust with recent events or just because their new-found Wyrd/Spartan/PP/Corvus Belli-infatuation have eaten up their time. 4 of those have quit GW gaming altogether, explicitly because of WHFB 8th edition.
3. 10 of them, not including the above, are selling off large parts of their GW collections. The same caveat applies here as with the first 4 in the paragraph above - my impression is that they are diversifying their gaming.

49 out of 50 read forums. Thus, almost the entire sample reacts in the same way, just as in your own sample. The entire sample visits their FLGS in some ways and two of them are GW employees. About half the sample has had some sort of reaction to recent events or earlier events in GW-land.

[spot the subtle barb in the text]

I would much rather see a post that confirms my preconceived opinion based on imaginary facts than your actual data with so-called "real" numbers, sir!

malfred wrote:It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Not nearly as much as the resident GW Hate Squad hating on GW for years and years, and the only thing they have to show for it is, well, a new GW army that they bought from their friendly local GW store, and friendly GW store prices.

Worglock wrote:

malfred wrote:It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Not nearly as much as the resident GW Hate Squad hating on GW for years and years, and the only thing they have to show for it is, well, a new GW army that they bought from their friendly local GW store, and friendly GW store prices.

Wait, you mean you're referring to someone specific?

malfred wrote:

Worglock wrote:

malfred wrote:It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Not nearly as much as the resident GW Hate Squad hating on GW for years and years, and the only thing they have to show for it is, well, a new GW army that they bought from their friendly local GW store, and friendly GW store prices.

Wait, you mean you're referring to someone specific?

Were you?

Adam LongWalker wrote:CageUF Wrote:

Regardless it is an absolute fact that gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases. While these players represent the minority of gamers, it is getting people interested.

I understand where you are coming from however if you got hard data that shows a sufficient amount of people making that choice to back your comment up I would like to see it and I think GW would too. It would be a positive spin for the corporation.

Here's a bit of hard data:
Out of about 1300 dakka visitors, 8% claim they got into GW from DoW or another 40k game.
See: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246739.page

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

CageUF wrote:
Sample size doesn't need to be random

But! Let's use my own sample instead then, since it does not need to be random. I have my entire gaming circle on an email list for information on events, and can thus be entirely precice, since I know all these guys. I'll just take the first 50 on the list. Out of those 50:

1. 6 do not, as far as I know, use forums actively on a weekly basis. But 5 of them have 1-3 #post accounts on a few forums and browse regularily (this is how they keep informed on events, tournaments and releases), and the last lets her boyfriend keep her updated from forums. The remaining 44 have accounts on at least one forum, many have several.
2. 12 of them have quit at least one GW game in the last two years - I have no firm idea whether that is out of disgust with recent events or just because their new-found Wyrd/Spartan/PP/Corvus Belli-infatuation have eaten up their time. 4 of those have quit GW gaming altogether, explicitly because of WHFB 8th edition.
3. 10 of them, not including the above, are selling off large parts of their GW collections. The same caveat applies here as with the first 4 in the paragraph above - my impression is that they are diversifying their gaming.

49 out of 50 read forums. Thus, almost the entire sample reacts in the same way, just as in your own sample. The entire sample visits their FLGS in some ways and two of them are GW employees. About half the sample has had some sort of reaction to recent events or earlier events in GW-land.
[spot the subtle barb in the text]

The sample needs to represent the whole... and the sample being random is VERY important, not sample size.

In the same way my numbers are skewed by wholly containing players that visit 3 LGS, yours are skewed by the fact that they are on an email list for GW events and may or may not be from 1 store (you didn't indicate).

But your information does indicate a few things.

1.) Not everyone that browses the forums post on a regular basis (your numbers are ~1/10).
2.) A significant number of players are choosing other products (for any number of reasons).
3.) ~4/50 have quit GW all together for one reason or another.

That lines up fairly well with what I think should be the case. The major difference between our two samples, is mine is made up mostly of 40k players and very few fantasy players, all of which are spread over 3 stores. Yours seems to have a reasonable number of fantasy players and is made up of those people active enough in the hobby as to warrant being on an email list.

Worglock wrote:

malfred wrote:It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Not nearly as much as the resident GW Hate Squad hating on GW for years and years, and the only thing they have to show for it is, well, a new GW army that they bought from their friendly local GW store, and friendly GW store prices.

Do you really think you're going to win? You can continue to call out the various posters and ultimately either burn out or get banned. But do you really think for one minute you can change anybody's mind? Those of us at Dakka with ill will towards GW are not going to change because of you. We will eventually either move on to other games, quit altogether, or forgive GW. You don't really figure into the equation.

Your tilting at windmills.

Crimson Devil wrote:

Worglock wrote:

malfred wrote:It's amusing to see forum haters describe the forum they're
hating on as a vocal minority.

Divide by zero?

Not nearly as much as the resident GW Hate Squad hating on GW for years and years, and the only thing they have to show for it is, well, a new GW army that they bought from their friendly local GW store, and friendly GW store prices.

Do you really think you're going to win? You can continue to call out the various posters and ultimately either burn out or get banned. But do you really think for one minute you can change anybody's mind? Those of us at Dakka with ill will towards GW are not going to change because of you. We will eventually either move on to other games, quit altogether, or forgive GW. You don't really figure into the equation.

Your tilting at windmills.

I "won" long before I ever cared to post on this forum. This site is currently a diversion for me when I'm bored at work or (like now) sitting at home eating a meal in between sessions of house or model work. The fact that you see some internet forum as something that someone can "win" at just adds to my amusement.

I could turn your statement around on you. Do you think you're going to "win"? GW is going to continue to do what they do and "your" (not you in particular, you as a group) venting of spleen is going to matter because you're either not buying from them, thus you really don't matter, or you're still buying from them, thus you're a hypocrite and really don't matter.

Do I think GW has done everything perfectly? No. Do I see a point in venting spleen all over the internet about it? No.

You either have fun with this hobby or you don't. If you don't, why are still around it when all it does is make you mad? Do you enjoy being mad all the time? (looking for serious answers)

Worglock wrote:You either have fun with this hobby or you don't. If you don't, why are still around it when all it does is make you mad? Do you enjoy being mad all the time? (looking for serious answers)

I and most of the other 'hardcorez' gamer crowd at my LGS converted to PP and other indy game systems... for a number of reasons that everyone is probably already familiar with.

Not having vet gamers seems to make it a LOT harder to recruit newer players into the 'GW' hobby. The player pool is much smaller, hardly any of the gaming tables are occupied with GW games, and the gaming circle that does exist becomes more difficult to break into as they stop coming to the game store and simply play at home to save on travel.

'Ard Boyz prelims are where GW's shortcomings in my area is most evident. In past years we would have 20+ entrants in the prelims, easy. This year there were 7 at our store and 3 at the other store across town. This even includes a few 'non-competitive' vets that haven't played in past years due to the level of competition coming out of the woodwork to see if they can get an easy win and prize support.

legoburner wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:CageUF Wrote:

Regardless it is an absolute fact that gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases. While these players represent the minority of gamers, it is getting people interested.

I understand where you are coming from however if you got hard data that shows a sufficient amount of people making that choice to back your comment up I would like to see it and I think GW would too. It would be a positive spin for the corporation.

Here's a bit of hard data:
Out of about 1300 dakka visitors, 8% claim they got into GW from DoW or another 40k game.
See: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246739.page

Thank you for this bit of information Lego Burner. I was hoping more information coming from a marketing research firm, such as the NPD group to be used as an example that perhaps the person that I previously put in quotes would have given to substantiate his broad based comments.

I can personally see why GW and its licensing scheme and current policy is the way it is if 8% is the approximate return rate for people playing video going to game table. I was hoping for a higher % number actually.

SourClams Wrote:

I and most of the other 'hardcorez' gamer crowd at my LGS converted to PP and other indy game systems... for a number of reasons that everyone is probably already familiar with.

Not having vet gamers seems to make it a LOT harder to recruit newer players into the 'GW' hobby. The player pool is much smaller, hardly any of the gaming tables are occupied with GW games, and the gaming circle that does exist becomes more difficult to break into as they stop coming to the game store and simply play at home to save on travel.

'Ard Boyz prelims are where GW's shortcomings in my area is most evident. In past years we would have 20+ entrants in the prelims, easy. This year there were 7 at our store and 3 at the other store across town. This even includes a few 'non-competitive' vets that haven't played in past years due to the level of competition coming out of the woodwork to see if they can get an easy win and prize support.

I do concur with this comment as I have seen this effect starting to happen in my region.

Next, are we Dakka Users the fringe? I do not believe so. I have been viewing hundreds of blog sites. Some of people in these sites are banging their chests, throwing out gak of information on why this list is better than that list or this blooger on another blogging site is a total feth.

That is the fringe, Those bloggers with the lunatic egos, that has control of their sites. Which brings the hobby into the stereotypical light.

And I hate that because there is so much more to the hobby than the so called stereotypical "fat, sweaty, unwashed, foul breathed gamer with the social graces of a chia pet" who must win at all cost because that is all of a life that he has.

And yes there are good blogging sites concerning the hobby that I enjoy.

In Dakka there are moderators. GOOD moderators that helps keep this site to be the premier site that it is. Next there are the people. Incredibly talented people that share there skills and ideas to others on this site. And with any large site you are going to fine the few that are on the lunatic fringe. They are duly noted by others and their ramblings are taken with a grain of salt.

Which is why Dakka IMHO continues to expand in a positive manner.

Worglock wrote:

I "won" long before I ever cared to post on this forum. This site is currently a diversion for me when I'm bored at work or (like now) sitting at home eating a meal in between sessions of house or model work. The fact that you see some internet forum as something that someone can "win" at just adds to my amusement.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. I was referring the the argument, not the forum. And I'm glad you're enjoying the grief your causing for the short time you'll be here.

I could turn your statement around on you. Do you think you're going to "win"? GW is going to continue to do what they do and "your" (not you in particular, you as a group) venting of spleen is going to matter because you're either not buying from them, thus you really don't matter, or you're still buying from them, thus you're a hypocrite and really don't matter.

Actually we do matter. The money we spend on non-GW games hurts them by strengthening their competitors. At my LGS 40k and Fantasty are on life support. But a pick up game of FoW or Warmachine is easy. Battle Front and Privateer Press are big fans of Games Workshop's current marketing plan.

We are angry because we care what happens. I've played GW games for over a decade and it saddens and sickens me to see them behave this way. When I don't care anymore, then I won't matter to GW.

Do I think GW has done everything perfectly? No. Do I see a point in venting spleen all over the internet about it? No.

The Internet is for two things; Porn and pointless rage.

You either have fun with this hobby or you don't. If you don't, why are still around it when all it does is make you mad? Do you enjoy being mad all the time? (looking for serious answers)

GW is not the hobby.

I think we are only fringe *If not much more* as the forum itself. If we however gather the opinions/thoughts of the wargamers we play with.

Then were a dozen to each -one- man we have. We've gone from a fringe to a faction all of our own. Also, we are often the first to hear of new announcements/rumors etc.

Luco wrote:

Worglock wrote:Considering that most of the whining is done on this site by 2 - 3 dozen people are most. You're not a "minority" you're an "endangered species".

QFT. I know babies that don't cry as much as some people on here. As with life its the 10 people in the crowd that puff up their chests and cry bloody murder that get all the attention and become 'what everyone thinks'.

isnt that the literal definition of "TFG"?


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Adam LongWalker wrote:

legoburner wrote:Here's a bit of hard data:
Out of about 1300 dakka visitors, 8% claim they got into GW from DoW or another 40k game.
See: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246739.page

Thank you for this bit of information Lego Burner. I was hoping more information coming from a marketing research firm, such as the NPD group to be used as an example that perhaps the person that I previously put in quotes would have given to substantiate his broad based comments.

I can personally see why GW and its licensing scheme and current policy is the way it is if 8% is the approximate return rate for people playing video going to game table. I was hoping for a higher % number actually.

that percentage will increase as 40k based games become more diverse, with the new introduction of "space marine" i would expect that number to jump significantly. for the longest time the only 40k games were fairly bland RTS's, most people i know strongly dislike that genre, and while the tabletop is a TBS a rpg/3ps would grab a much larger percent of the population

Being skeptical of broad declarations on the net is wise but I'm surprised that you contest that "gamers have been driven to tabletop gaming by console/pc releases". The only thing this says is multiple people joined tabletop gaming because of their experience with console/pc games. I wasn't claiming this was the main drawing factor for all/most/or even many new players, but that it is A cause.

I think it foolish to argue that there isn't some cross-over from video games to tabletop gaming. For what it is worth, every new player that I have run into that has come to tabletop gaming through this route has been 18 or under.

I would contest that gamers have been "driven" to tabletop gaming. They may have been influenced to try wargaming having played DoW or whatever it is, but driven?
Really, is it "absolute fact" that there was such an overwhelming desire that they must play at all costs? or did they just get the bus on the scenic route? or maybe just walk?
Driven? nah

Of course there is a crossover. But I see kids who play computer games that get interested in tabletop games because they see other kids playing tabletop games and think the models look cool not because of console gaming. Some kids that think GW are yanking their chain when they go on the computers to check out the wares. Then there are those that don't care about the cost since it all comes from mommy and daddy and money grows on trees.

We all have anecdotes to trade but it doesn't really amount to much and hyperbole doesn't make the case any more persuassive.

Edited by Manchu

Guys please remember that it is not necessary to respond to everything that irritates you on the internet. Flaming is just as much against the rules as flamebaiting. Also, the mere fact of flaming does not actually prove that there was flamebaiting. If something you read here annoys you, report it and forget it. The old adage about "not feeding the trolls" applies -- just because you think someone is a troll doesn't mean they actually are one but if you really think they are, please do not feed.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I would contest that gamers have been "driven" to tabletop gaming. They may have been influenced to try wargaming having played DoW or whatever it is, but driven?
Really, is it "absolute fact" that there was such an overwhelming desire that they must play at all costs? or did they just get the bus on the scenic route? or maybe just walk?
Driven? nah

Yeah I agree with this. It takes a completely different mentality to play tabletop games vs PC/Console.

I got into GW through the Eisenhorn Omnibus, which interested me enough to go and buy the Dawn of War series, and from there I realized that a tabletop game existed--but I already had a very strong pen&paper "nerd gamer" background.

Tabletop games require a BIG outlay in time and logistics--finding a gamestore, driving times once a week, dealing with an actual physical person/gaming circle as opposed to faceless online societies, and delayed gratification (it takes hours to simply get models to the point of being able to play... and there's no going back and changing your 'customizability' settings without starting over from scratch.

Those who play tabletop games often also play PC/console games. It's easy to go from a more intensive outlay (tabletop gaming, wine collecting, car racing) to a less intensive, sometimes even one-off outlay (PC/console gaming, clubbing, go-karting). It's a lot harder to go the other way around. As a young father, I can easily go and fire up Space Marine when the kid is taking a nap or when I can pawn her off onto Mom for an hour. I can't do that with tabletop gaming... it takes a specialized location and schedule coordination with other people, and can't be turned on and off as life requires.

Saying that gamers will be 'driven' from PC/Console gaming to tabletop gaming on the strength of the IP seems more than a little overzealous and backwards.

Without minimizing the excellent point about playing tabletop being worlds different than PC RTS gaming, DoW did introduce the background to a lot of people. I daresay that it was more successful in that regard than BL -- but I have no government-sponsored statistical surveys to back that up.

A side note on the computer to tabletop talk, I remember picking up a copy of PC Gamer a while back and it had a Space Marine on the cover, it had DoW2 inside, previews of Space Marine, previews of the forthcoming 40k mmo and brief mention of WAR. Games Workshop owned IP taking up a sizeable chunk of it. Computer games have a far wider audience than tabletop and it's a fairly safe bet that whilst that one issue of the magazine won't cause a slew of converts, it spreads the message and makes the IP more recognisable to the general public.

Some folks learning more and coming over to tabletop seems a likely side effect as well as increasing the value of the IP.

I think that DoW probably introduced GW IP to *gamers*. I would guess that the overall gaming pool probably stayed the same/has followed its normal trendline, but that a tiny percentage of gamers already inclined towards tabletop gaming (like myself) were willing to jump in. Basic market share growth.

In that sense, I absolutely agree that the DoW franchise has been good for the GW hobby and tabletop gaming in general, but I think we're also at a point of diminishing returns on the benefits of greater IP exposure through more PC/console game titles.

More PC/console games is great... more almost always is... but if what you enjoy about Space Marine is the visceral joy of watching Captain Titus chainsword his way through 100 Boyz, then is that really going to 'drive' you to assemble mono-pose Captain Titus in 20mm scale to watch him drown horribly in a squad of 12 Boyz? I'm gonna go with 'no'.

Edit:

And there's also the issue with GW game titles that failed horribly. WAR was/is a bomb. In no way did WAR end up as a Warcraft-killer, or even a good game. Same thing with the Mark of Chaos fantasy-RTS series. These games sucked hard and, I think it's safe to say, did little to generate interest in anything.