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2012/03/23 03:31:33
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Polonius wrote:it's a stirring of the pot, but I'm not sure it's good strategy.
It's been a strategy that has delivered. I mean here's an election shift in just 8 years, in 1956 Eisenhower dominated as a Republican everywhere but in the South,
to 1964 when Johnson dominated everywhere but in the South;
We all know what happened to cause that change.
But I think it's a strategy with a pretty definite time limit. Every year the old generation of racist voters is a little fewer, and younger generations of white voters just don't have the same racist beliefs. And at the same time every election the proportion of voters who are black or hispanic and are offput by the racebaiting is a little larger. We all know that black voters return about 90% for the Democrats, and I think we all know that's due to the racebaiting the Republicans play on every election. And then you look at the Hispanic vote getting bigger every year, and in general beliefs they're reasonably close to Republican core values, but the racebaiting is costing Republicans votes.
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Melissia wrote:Whichi s both sad and amusing considering as far as ethnic groups go they're a pretty strong and reliable voting block, only exceeded by the elderly I think.
No, while they're relevant because they vote overwhelmingly Democratic, their actual turnout is really woeful. They were a significant factor in 2008 for Obama, but not because the percentage of black people voting for Obama changed much (it was in the mid 90s but it was in the mid 90s for Kerry, Gore, Clinton and so on as well), but because the turnout of black people went up significantly.
It's commonly held that if Democrats could get turnout rates anything like Republicans get out of the elderly, then the Republicans wouldn't ever win a presidential election again.
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Grakmar wrote:When you get down to it, we're all multiracial.
There's been plenty of interracial children born over the past few thousand years that effectively everyone is the world (except a few small isolated tribes in the Amazon or other complete remote places) is a mixture of all the different races. We only differ in how much Black/White/Hispanic/Asian/American Indian/Pacific Islander/etc we are.
More to the point, ultimately there's no clear differentiation between the races. There is no specific set of genetic markers that makes a person white, or black or anything else. We kind of think it's to do with skin colour, but then you notice people who are regarded as black who's skin is much lighter than, say, people from Spain or Southern Italy.
So then we start adding other factors, nose, should breadth, and so on, but then we notice more and more discrepancies. Ultimately it becomes obvious race is just a social construct, that relfects economics and history far more than it reflects genetics.
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streamdragon wrote:Horribly under rated movie, that.
Had strengths and weaknesses, but among those strengths was one of the best things ever written about politics;
Angry black woman: Are you sayin' the Democratic Party don't care about the African-American community?
Bullworth: Isn't that OBVIOUS? You got half your kids are out of work and the other half are in jail. Do you see ANY Democrat doing anything about it? Certainly not me! So what're you gonna do, vote Republican? Come on! Come on, you're not gonna vote Republican! Let's call a spade a spade! I mean - come on! You can have a Billion Man March! If you don't put down that malt liquor and chicken wings, and get behind someone other than a running back who stabs his wife, you're NEVER gonna get rid of somebody like me!
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Polonius wrote:I dunno man.
I like the sentiment, but the races have been pretty seperate since they've developed. We all share common ancestry, but I can assure you nobody was making the trip to my ancestor's dirt farms in poland and Ireland from polynesia to get a little.
More to the point though, up to 50 years ago those Polish people were considered their own race, just as much as black people are now thought of differently compared to white people. You can find stuff from the 50s where people talk about the Irish being different to white people. Race is just a thing we made up because what actually makes different societies function differently is way too damn complicated for most people.
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Polonius wrote:Not really. I think the concept of race arose primarily when it became clear that there were groups of people that shared more in terms of skin tone, religion, and culture with each other than with other groups.
A Dutch sailor in Nagaski in 1650 had to realize that he had far more in common in terms of culture, language, rligion, and appearance with an Italian or Englshman than with a Japanese person.
They'er loose groups, but not totally without merit.
Except that a Dutch sailor saw as many differences between himself and an Englishman as he did with anyone he met in an African colony. Most of what we now understand as race came out of what was called at the time racialist thought, which was basically an effort to reconcile the increasing power of Europe, and Europe's colonisation of the rest of the world. Before then you'd see people talk about how the people of other nations were different or horrible in one way or another, but not in terms of them being inferior.
It's only when Europe was in a position to colonise other nations and in some cases make slaves of the people there that you start getting this racial notion of a superior, white ancestry.
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Lint wrote:Simply put: Science is generally based upon facts and ineffable truths. Culture is a concept generally based on opinion, which is certainly relevant in some regards but not when it comes to defining race, which has a completely different definition when speaking about any species other than our own. What I'm saying is when humans use race in relation to humanity it is a bastardized use of the word, and misleading.
Which is why people describing the phenomenom have come to use ethnicity instead of race.
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Necroshea wrote:I find the bumper sticker situation humorous. I imagine it was meant to get a rise out of people, regardless of if the wielder is a racist or not. After skimming the past 3 pages I think it's safe to say it accomplished what it set out to do and then some.
Don't understand why people can't look at it and simply not care.
Because the impact of racial bigotry has a real and measurable impact in society.
One of the best things about priviledge is that all this stuff seems so funny, because it's only something other people suffer.
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CT GAMER wrote:Not to mention it is the cumulative effect of one campaign after another.
If you hear things said enough times and from enough sources you just might start to think it must be true.
Especially if you're inclined to believe this kind of stuff in the first place.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/03/23 03:59:18
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2012/03/23 23:29:35
Subject: Re:Nothing says America like racist election swag:
And in case we still want to pretend that these sort of things are only perpetrated by a few random people with no status/influence, here is a gem that was sent out by an elected Republican official Marilyn Davenport that she circulated via email to her constituants and co-workers:
When asked if she thought the email was appropriate, Davenport said, "Oh, come on! Everybody who knows me knows that I am not a racist. I have friends who are black. Besides, I only sent it to a few people--mostly people I didn't think would be upset by it."
This is the second time in recent years that an Orange County political official has been in the news for Obama-themed emails.
In early 2009, Los Alamitos Mayor Dean Grose forwarded an email to a group of people depicting a picture of the White House with a watermelon patch as its garden. Grose later resigned amid the backlash.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/23 23:32:19
So are you pretending that a website suggesting Bush looks like a chimp has the exact same connotation as saying a black person is a monkey?
I would assume your smart enough to not believe that.
Also I'm not sure if you can find a single one of these racist Obama atacks that originated from the mind of a black individual.
Yet Bush was made fun of by white people regularly. Point being his race was hardle ever if never the issue or point of attack...
All of the things I have sited and (and many of the others not posed) have originated from white individuals obsessd with his race/ethnicity/birthplace.
The main line of attack towards Bush Jr. was always to suggest that he was dumb, a simpleton, a goober, etc..
He always had a very animated face and people used to take still pics of him like those you featured and poke fun at his expressions as a way to mock him.
It had nothing to do with race and you know that.
Suggesting that blacks are monkeys/apes (ie. savage animals) is an insidious a tradtition dating back hundreds of years and is a common racial slur/attack made against them.
Nice try...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/24 13:04:30
Freedom of speech at its finest, It made me chuckle.
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2012/03/24 17:02:58
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
If bush can be made fun of for looking like a chimp, then so can Obama. Equal rights, bro. It works for us whites too. Just because he is dark skinned doesn't make him immune to casual election banter and political satire.
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman."
2012/03/24 17:05:31
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Polonius wrote:it's a stirring of the pot, but I'm not sure it's good strategy.
It's been a strategy that has delivered. I mean here's an election shift in just 8 years, in 1956 Eisenhower dominated as a Republican everywhere but in the South,
to 1964 when Johnson dominated everywhere but in the South;
We all know what happened to cause that change.
LBJ signing the same Civil Rights Act he blocked Ike from pushing through.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/03/24 17:14:59
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:If bush can be made fun of for looking like a chimp, then so can Obama. Equal rights, bro. It works for us whites too. Just because he is dark skinned doesn't make him immune to casual election banter and political satire.
No, bro. Just no. Not being from America I suspect it's harder to understand.
And if he's such a horrid President, why would someone need to go racist? Why not stick to the record?
"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
2012/03/24 21:05:26
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
So are you pretending that a website suggesting Bush looks like a chimp has the exact same connotation as saying a black person is a monkey?
I would assume your smart enough to not believe that.
Also I'm not sure if you can find a single one of these racist Obama atacks that originated from the mind of a black individual.
Yet Bush was made fun of by white people regularly. Point being his race was hardle ever if never the issue or point of attack...
All of the things I have sited and (and many of the others not posed) have originated from white individuals obsessd with his race/ethnicity/birthplace.
The main line of attack towards Bush Jr. was always to suggest that he was dumb, a simpleton, a goober, etc..
He always had a very animated face and people used to take still pics of him like those you featured and poke fun at his expressions as a way to mock him.
It had nothing to do with race and you know that.
Suggesting that blacks are monkeys/apes (ie. savage animals) is an insidious a tradtition dating back hundreds of years and is a common racial slur/attack made against them.
Nice try...
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
2012/03/24 21:10:15
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:If bush can be made fun of for looking like a chimp, then so can Obama. Equal rights, bro. It works for us whites too. Just because he is dark skinned doesn't make him immune to casual election banter and political satire.
No, bro. Just no. Not being from America I suspect it's harder to understand.
And if he's such a horrid President, why would someone need to go racist? Why not stick to the record?
Um... if Bush can be made to look like a chimp, so can Obama. Just because you are saying that it is racist doesn't make it so. The other such things, like the bumper sticker on the first page, are in fact racist, and are unneccesary.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2012/03/24 21:12:52
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/03/24 21:21:40
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2012/03/24 21:26:56
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
There are clearly two schools of thought here. I, and apparently others, think it's silly to take offense at one politician being charicatured over another. There are more than a few politicians that have had their backgrounds, ie. southern=brainless redkneck, religious=fanatic, ridiculed to be offended over the fact that Obama had Bush style pictures made of him.
2012/03/24 21:29:33
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No, That wouldn't be racist.
Change donkey-cave to monkey, and we start having a problem.
Basicly what dogma said.
"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
2012/03/24 21:30:40
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No, That wouldn't be racist.
Change donkey-cave to monkey, and we start having a problem.
Basicly what dogma said.
So if two high school kids are goofing around in class one day, one is black, one is white, and the teacher says "Stop Monkeying around!" to both of them, it's racist just because he's black?
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2012/03/24 21:34:31
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No? I'm not even sure how you got there.
The word "monkey" has a storied history as a racial epithet, so using it in a manner where it could easily interpreted as a racial epithet fundamentally changes the meaning of the word even in the absence of that specific intent. It is, on its face, a stupid thing to do, or allude to, simply because it can (and probably will) be interpreted that way.
I know this may shock some of you, but insults and epithets actually have meanings beyond just "I am insulting you!"
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/03/24 21:35:27
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No, That wouldn't be racist.
Change donkey-cave to monkey, and we start having a problem.
Basicly what dogma said.
So if two high school kids are goofing around in class one day, one is black, one is white, and the teacher says "Stop Monkeying around!" to both of them, it's racist just because he's black?
Can't believe I have to spell this out for you.
No, the teacher is describing a behavior, not a personal characteristic of the student.
Are you really trying hard not to see the difference?
"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC
"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC
2012/03/24 21:37:10
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Slarg232 wrote:
So if two high school kids are goofing around in class one day, one is black, one is white, and the teacher says "Stop Monkeying around!" to both of them, it's racist just because he's black?
Different context. The teacher didn't call either one a monkey, and "monkeying around" doesn't have a storied history of widespread use as a racial epithet.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/03/24 21:39:03
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No? I'm not even sure how you got there.
The word "monkey" has a storied history as a racial epithet, so using it in a manner where it could easily interpreted as a racial epithet fundamentally changes the meaning of the word even in the absence of that specific intent. It is, on its face, a stupid thing to do, or allude to, simply because it can (and probably will) be interpreted that way.
I know this may shock some of you, but insults and epithets actually have meanings beyond just "I am insulting you!"
I have never heard of Monkey being an insult against black people. Seriously, all I am seeing here is "Bush is a monkey, haha, OBAMA IS A MONKEY, OMG THAT'S RACIST!" I distinctly remember Obama running his campain on "I don't want my race to be a factor", but people come out of the woodwork to say if someone is racist for disagreeing/insulting him.
alarmingrick wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Don't even try to pretend it's not the same thing, CT. If those Bush pictures had Obama's face instead, you'd be all over it like flies on crap.
Considering the historical use of the word "monkey" in relation African Americans, no, it isn't the same thing. Context is important where language and symbolism are involved.
For example, the "re-nig" bumper sticker would have simply been considered an unfortunate spelling error if the subject of it had been white.
So what your saying is that it's ok for someone to call a white man an arsehole, but to call a black man an arsehole is racist?
No, That wouldn't be racist.
Change donkey-cave to monkey, and we start having a problem.
Basicly what dogma said.
So if two high school kids are goofing around in class one day, one is black, one is white, and the teacher says "Stop Monkeying around!" to both of them, it's racist just because he's black?
Can't believe I have to spell this out for you.
No, the teacher is describing a behavior, not a personal characteristic of the student.
Are you really trying hard not to see the difference?
So there is no possible way that someone didn't see Bush made out as a monkey, said "ha, that's funny", and made Obama out as a monkey? There is NO way that whomever is describing Obama's behavior, and not his skin color?
Because I have to tell you guys, I have never heard of monkey as a racial slur.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2012/03/24 21:43:08
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
I think this is one of those agree to disagree moments. I have a pretty good respect for the intellegence of both you, Dogma and alarmingrick, but I don't think we'll be seeing this particular item from the same angle anytime soon.
2012/03/24 21:44:42
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Relapse wrote:
There are clearly two schools of thought here. I, and apparently others, think it's silly to take offense at one politician being charicatured over another. There are more than a few politicians that have had their backgrounds, ie. southern=brainless redkneck, religious=fanatic, ridiculed to be offended over the fact that Obama had Bush style pictures made of him.
Sure, but the point I'm making is that its not just about caricature in general, but what a given caricature is emphasizing and how its emphasizing it. And, really, I don't care either way and am not at all offended. I just don't understand how educated adults can't seem to grasp the significance of the distinction between comparing a black man to a monkey, and doing the same to a white man.
Comparing Obama to a monkey isn't going to go over well because it hints at his race even if the comparing person didn't intend that. And, honestly, I have difficulty believing that anyone would be ignorant of the fact that it could be viewed that way; it isn't like "monkey" is an unknown racial epithet.
More practically, if its commonly though that Republicans tend to be racist, then its probably not a good idea to do things that can be interpreted as being racist if you want people to stop thinking you're racist.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/03/24 21:47:15
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Slarg232 wrote:
So if two high school kids are goofing around in class one day, one is black, one is white, and the teacher says "Stop Monkeying around!" to both of them, it's racist just because he's black?
Different context. The teacher didn't call either one a monkey, and "monkeying around" doesn't have a storied history of widespread use as a racial epithet.
Suppose she did call both of them Monkeys, instead of saying "Monkeying around". "Your acting like a pair of monkeys". Still racist?
alarmingrick wrote:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:It isn't racist to call a spade a spade.
Bush looks like a chimp, so does Obama. Not because he's black, but because HE LOOKS LIKE A CHIMP.
Unless the spade is black.
Another wonderful choice of words.
Oh, so we can't even say the word Black when speaking about Obama now? "Call a Spade a Spade" is a very old saying that's been in use for generations.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2012/03/24 21:47:18
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
It's like the people that continually use terms like "gay", "queer", and "[the tree letter word for cigarette]", specifically around homosexuals, just to attack them indirectly. Sure theyr'e using those words in a way that is intended to dodge the insulting definitions but that's still really just pedantic douchebaggery and homophobic attacks.
An indirect racist attack is still a racist attack.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/03/24 21:48:22
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/03/24 21:48:13
Subject: Nothing says America like racist election swag:
Because the term is not historically used as a racial insult against whites.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
