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Wait, someone thinks Jesus didn't walk with raptors? I don't know if that's a world I want to live in.

LordofHats wrote:
That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one. What are they gonna do?

Soldier walks into office. "Sir, I've been really nervous lately. A body of mine got shot and it got me thinking of how quickly it can all end."

"It's okay Bob. Whatever happens there is no God, so when you die it'll just be over and we'll bury you in the ground, say some nice words, and be done with it."

Very encouraging

They're not really seeking atheist chaplains, though that is a side effect of sorts, they're seeking humanist chaplains.

Now, humanism can be considered a religion, as I said above, but really its more a philosophical category.

While I don't necessarily see it as necessary, I also don't see how it any way has a negative impact on the military, so if someone wants humanist chaplains, let them.

Mannahnin wrote:Remember that the original statement was a defense of Christians.

KingCracker wrote:Just wanted to add, not all Christians are fruit cakes that believe Jesus walked with raptors and the Earth is little more then 10k years old.

Yes but it was also a backhanded insult to anyone that believes that the earth is "little more than 10K years old".

GG

If one holds ridiculous beliefs, one should be prepared for ridicule.

Because people who believe things that are blatantly false aren't held in very high regard.

I actually think someone with a clean slate, with no bias between any of the religions and is open minded, would make a great spiritual advisor or you know a multirole chaplain. But existing chaplains do an excellent job already. As for the MASH chapters I don't see what the problem would be finacially, I mean if there willing to spend tons of money on christian venues why not spend a tiny amount on an atheist one.

I can see this getting out of control though due to rivalry with each side trying to recruit more and more members. Your going to have a broken organisation with each side hating on the other. However if they keep each of their clubs seperate with minumum advertising, no shoving it in someones face or preaching, then I'm happy with it.

Frazzled wrote:Nuke them from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

Allow me to preface this with saying that I didn't read this thread at all.

This is the purest distillation of my reaction to the story (which I did read). It's just some more of that IRL trolling that pops up from time to time, which grows more tiresome with every episode.

generalgrog wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Remember that the original statement was a defense of Christians.

KingCracker wrote:Just wanted to add, not all Christians are fruit cakes that believe Jesus walked with raptors and the Earth is little more then 10k years old.

Yes but it was also a backhanded insult to anyone that believes that the earth is "little more than 10K years old".

GG

I suppose, in the same way it's an insult to say "People who believe space aliens actively abduct people from the American Midwest are fruitcakes" or "People who believe that they can solve crimes by talking to ghosts are fruitcakes" or "People who genuinely believe the world going to end this year because the Mayans said so are fruit cakes".

Atheist chaplains sound like a reasonable thing to me - able to advise, console, etc in a secular way, maybe also see that bodies, wills, last requests etc of atheist soldiers are carried out.

As for the rest of the article... I'd have to say that it sounds like they were trying to make a point rather than anything else.

As for the rest of the thread... I think certain people were looking to be insulted, and other people walked right into it, face first.

As far as I am concerned a young earther is no different from a flat earther.

Atheist chaplains exist, they are generally called councillors/welfare officers etc as that is basically all a military chaplain does.

Is there any point to this thread other than trolling?

generalgrog wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Remember that the original statement was a defense of Christians.

KingCracker wrote:Just wanted to add, not all Christians are fruit cakes that believe Jesus walked with raptors and the Earth is little more then 10k years old.

Yes but it was also a backhanded insult to anyone that believes that the earth is "little more than 10K years old".

GG

and saying the earth is 10k years old is a insult to everyone who knows the earth is 4.54 billion years old.

The tree's can prove the earth is at least 20k years old.

The ice caps date back 160,000 years.

no matter how you look at it, 10k is just demonstrable wrong.

The earth is also not flat, nor the center of the universe.

I see no reason to get upset over the removal of the cross. After all, the people it commemorates are dead-they're not likely to complain, are they?

Commemoration is usually more for the living than for the dead.

LordofHats wrote:Commemoration is usually more for the living than for the dead.

Its all for the living, just like funerals.

generalgrog wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Dead people don't care what's on their headstones, only living people do.

Of course Christians believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So while it's a nice soundbite to say that dead people don't care whats on their headstones, that's just your opinion..

The location (or existence) of the soul is irrelevant. Headstones fall under the category of worldly possessions. Are there any other worldly possessions Christians care about after they die or is it just headstones? Is just the shape of the headstone important or is the workmanship and the materials vital too?

Why am I asking you? Do you solicit the opinions of the deceased often?

George... is too hard to realize that people may want to leave a testimony behind.

GG

generalgrog wrote:George... is too hard to realize that people may want to leave a testimony behind.

GG

That may be something they want while they're still alive. You're indulging in sentimentalism not Christianity. Feel free toy dig up a biblical quote about how you should care about 'your' bit of stone after you die though. I'm sure I can find plenty in the bible about your possessions when you're alive.

There are far better testimonies that one can leave behind than a bit of stone.

What is the point of your argument George? I'm not trying to be snippy I just can't figure out what, if anything, you have against people wanting their tombstones to reflect something they think is significant about themselves.

Manchu wrote:What is the point of your argument George? I'm not trying to be snippy I just can't figure out what, if anything, you have against people wanting their tombstones to reflect something they think is significant about themselves.

That living people wanting these things? Nothing. Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:What is the point of your argument George? I'm not trying to be snippy I just can't figure out what, if anything, you have against people wanting their tombstones to reflect something they think is significant about themselves.

That living people wanting these things? Nothing. Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

Ok so we can just burn all of Thomas Jeffersons writings and wipe all electronic copies then...




GG

George Spiggott wrote:Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

This doesn't seem to mean anything relevant to this conversation ...

generalgrog wrote:Ok so we can just burn all of Thomas Jeffersons writings and wipe all electronic copies then...

I didn't realise we were keeping them jut to keep Thomas Jefferson's corpse happy. I though they had some other purpose that living people valued. Facepalm indeed.

generalgrog wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:What is the point of your argument George? I'm not trying to be snippy I just can't figure out what, if anything, you have against people wanting their tombstones to reflect something they think is significant about themselves.

That living people wanting these things? Nothing. Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

Ok so we can just burn all of Thomas Jeffersons writings and wipe all electronic copies then...




GG

There goes the christian wanting to burn books again. Why the disrespect for the dead?

Manchu wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

This doesn't seem to mean anything relevant to this conversation ...

It wasn't aimed at you.

Generalgrog wrote:So while it's a nice soundbite to say that dead people don't care whats on their headstones, that's just your opinion.

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Don't pretend that you know what dead people want or that dead people's opinions matter.

This doesn't seem to mean anything relevant to this conversation ...

It wasn't aimed at you.

and yet still wholly irrelevant.

@George: That's overly literal. To me, generalgrog is saying dead people in reference to the wishes they made known when they were alive. I think he mentioned being "present with the Lord" means that dead people aren't just absent from reality because they've died. Some people like myself believe in the notion of the communion of saints but even an atheist can acknowledge the concept of "respecting the memory of the deceased."

Manchu wrote:@George: That's overly literal. To me, generalgrog is saying dead people in reference to the wishes they made known when they were alive. I think he mentioned being "present with the Lord" means that dead people aren't just absent from reality because they've died. Some people like myself believe in the notion of the communion of saints but even an atheist can acknowledge the concept of "respecting the memory of the deceased."

Already covered in the first post I wrote that GG objected to.

George Spiggott wrote:Dead people don't care what's on their headstones, only living people do.

sirlynchmob wrote:the point still is the headstones and memorials are for the living. If you're dead, you're either in heaven, purgatory, hell, trapped on the river styx without a penny, or just gone. in any of those 5 options the stiff could probably care less about what is on his stone. Normally the stiff doesn't even get a say on whats on it. Even respecting the memory of someone has little to do with the one who died, but being respectful to the ones still alive.

This.

Manchu wrote:@George: That's overly literal. To me, generalgrog is saying dead people in reference to the wishes they made known when they were alive. I think he mentioned being "present with the Lord" means that dead people aren't just absent from reality because they've died. Some people like myself believe in the notion of the communion of saints but even an atheist can acknowledge the concept of "respecting the memory of the deceased."

the point still is the headstones and memorials are for the living. If you're dead, you're either in heaven, purgatory, hell, trapped on the river styx without a penny, or just gone. in any of those 5 options the stiff could probably care less about what is on his stone. Normally the stiff doesn't even get a say on whats on it. Even respecting the memory of someone has little to do with the one who died, but being respectful to the ones still alive.

But the camp pendleton cross will be gone shortly, and soon after its looking like a bigger controversial one will follow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad_cross_controversy

its on its way to a cali supreme court hearing and think of the fun the precedence will create

George Spiggott wrote:Already covered in the first post I wrote that GG objected to.

George Spiggott wrote:Dead people don't care what's on their headstones, only living people do.

I guess what I am saying is, people who were once living cared about what is on their tombstone and just because they are now dead doesn't mean that their wishes don't matter anymore.

OTOH, it is hard to fault your assumption that GG meant something more bizarre.

Manchu wrote:guess what I am saying is, people who were once living cared about what is on their tombstone and just because they are now dead doesn't mean that their wishes don't matter anymore..

Their wishes don't matter. The wishes of living people who want to carry on their wishes matter. Although they carry no extra weight because they think a dead person agrees with them.

Manchu wrote:OTOH, it is hard to fault your assumption that GG meant something more bizarre.

Words to live by.