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Kroothawk wrote:

Currently 98% of our Hobby centres have a trained manager and over half have a named successor ready to be deployed. We believe that this will help to ensure that our sales businesses are better able to respond to under-performance and deliver consistently high levels of customer service for our Hobbyists.

So half the GW stores have a named successor for their manager to increase motivation? Seems like they liked the Dark Eldar Codex and now use Pain markers to improve staff effectiveness Explains the aggressive sales strategies by the staff.

GW needs to learn that constantly changing managers destroys communities and as a result, hurts sales.

So pretty much all stores have trained a new manager and half of these stores have a successor to the current manager lined up. So they fully expect to lose half their current store managers in the near future? They can't all be promoted to Nottingham so I guess they are going elsewhere. Not great staff retention there.

In Germany GW does one or two store manager recruitment days per year, so there must be a constantly high demand for replacements. No wonder if you know the salaries and compulsory overtime for store managers and GW's high sales expectations that are rarely met.

Sean_OBrien wrote:
How about something like this:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/23501.html

Warmachine has overtaken Warhammer Fantasy as the #2 best selling product line for non-collectible miniature games.

PP actually held number 2 and 3 a few times - http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/15716.html

WHFB has actually been as low as #5 more than once - http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/14724.html

ICV2 numbers are only a partial picture. They only reflect Alliance/Diamond Distribution's sales numbers for North America. They do not include GW's own store numbers or online sales for North America, let alone, the rest of the world. A PP employee told me that PP's total global sales were equal to 25% of GW's North American sales back in 2011 or about $12,000,000. To put in perspective, Privateer Press sales is only 6% of GW's total global sales.

silent25 wrote:A PP employee told me that PP's total global sales were equal to 25% of GW's North American sales back in 2011 or about $12,000,000. To put in perspective, Privateer Press sales is only 6% of GW's total global sales.

I'll take that at face value (not sure - have no information in that regard) but look a bit closer just at what you have there.

Privateer press has no significant direct sales presence (their web store - but I would be willing to bet it accounts for a small fraction of sales). Most of their sales will be through a wholesale scheme. Fairly common is 40% discount. That kicks things up to $20,000,000. After that - you have to consider the entry level costs per person. While the two army starter set for both companies cost roughly the same - the person who bought the Warmachinie boxed set actually has two playable armies. To make a GW set playable in normal games - you would need to spend a good bit more money. While many people do purchase the various books for Warmachine - those also are not essential (since figures come with cards that have the important stuff on them). So, even discounting other items - the Warmachine is $50 cheaper to get someone started (or $25...if they only go in for one Codex at last years prices).

So - if you were to consider that the $20,000,000 would be used simply on new players buying starter sets (and the required items to be playable in general games) for a GW customer - it could bring in 160,000 whereas the PP comparable will get 200,000 new people playing. Of course it isn't that simple - things never are. However, that same story generally holds up as you make it more complicated. While PP is still only bringing in a small portion of the revenue which GW is - their sales are growing the customer base by a larger percentage. Places like the UK - this will largely seem like a mythical concept, but where GW products are primarily moved through independent stores - when Warhammer or 40K players see more people getting more stuff for their money, it tends to erode GW's hold on the market.

Good bit off topic I guess - but it goes to the point of GW sales falling and the reasoning why.

Interesting Mr OBrien but longer this thread goes on the more we get back to the old adage that Statistics can be used to prove anything.

Cartainly in 87.9% of cases.

I suspect a 12.1% chance you might be wrong there Notprop!

I suppose the unarguable point here is that there is now more than 1 major player in the industry, a situation that has changed from ten years ago.

Kroothawk wrote:In Germany GW does one or two store manager recruitment days per year, so there must be a constantly high demand for replacements. No wonder if you know the salaries and compulsory overtime for store managers and GW's high sales expectations that are rarely met.

Many years ago when I was a GW staffer, there used to be a kind of '6 month' barrier for the staff generally, and if they passed through that then they might well go on to work at the stores for years. I won't say they were a bad employer, because they weren't (certainly compared to some companies I have worked for!), and the discounts in particular were mental. There was a certain amount of corporate BS you had to go through (a lot of it cringe-worthy), but again that's the same again for most bigger companies these days.

But, I was only ever at the lower end of things. I did talk to people, and some visits from 'dignitaries' helped to convince me there was a serious yes-men culture at the company, even back then. The end of the 'LoTR' bubble was not a nice thing to behold, especially when as far as the higher-ups were concerned there was no reason that the product lines shouldn't have been selling just as well.

I think generally the least critical thinking staff members (and this includes management) who are prepared to just swallow whatever they are fed last longest, but it becomes unbearable for most people and they leave after 6-12 months. The wage (like many retail jobs) isn't really enough if you have to support yourself, and there is only so much 'hobby love' can do to compensate for that.

Sean_OBrien wrote:

Statesman wrote:Interestingly, the change in marketing (namely closed lips until two weeks before launch) appears not have hurt them in the slightest. Can't say that it helped, either, but clearly these financials are of a healthy, mature (i.e. growth plateued) company.

No doubt these results bolster the corporate philosphy of eschewing tournaments, the internet, etc. Despite the rage, the sales are still pretty good.

Actually it has. A couple articles on ICV2 are editorials by store owners regarding the practice. Several have stopped carrying GW products as a result - or greatly cut back on them.

One of the more recent ones was the paint line switch. Although there were rumors going about for a while before hand that something was up - there was no official notification sent to independent retailers till 2 weeks prior to the release. This forced them to have to react much more quickly than you would normally want to with that (what to do with old paint, do you try to stock pile old paint, should you carry new paint, should you switch to a different brand instead, which brand to switch to...) not to mention the capital outlay for those who did in fact decide to go with the program. Not to mention it coincided with another largish release from GW in the form of the Tomb Kings.

With every other company - retailers get heads up regarding new products well in advance (even if they don't get the exact day right - they know it is coming).

Certainly, anecdotally, I've read tons complaining about GW. And yet...the numbers haven't decline. They're doing fine. All the thunder and lightning...and they're still about where they were. Odd.

spaceelf wrote:
It is fairly clear that GW is losing ground to other miniature companies. The icv2 article is interesting. I wonder where warmachine and hordes would rank if they were taken as a group, as they occupy the second and fourth spots? Unfortunately, icv2 does not have access to GWs own sales numbers, which may be substantial as GW runs stores.

Considering the sales GW does from its stores in the UK alone it is most likely more than substantial. Without this data the entire article is fairly useless.

Statesman wrote:Certainly, anecdotally, I've read tons complaining about GW. And yet...the numbers haven't decline. They're doing fine. All the thunder and lightning...and they're still about where they were. Odd.

Point is that for years, revenue growth is less than average price hike, so they sell 5-10% less products each year, meaning shrinking consumer base. At the same time for years, a major shareholder (Kirby) decides that shareholders get more money than total profits, so constantly draining the company for personal profit. This is a process that takes some time to reach a critical treshhold, but it eventually will reach it, as an extreme yes-man-company like GW has no control loops to stop that process.

Kroothawk wrote:

Statesman wrote:Certainly, anecdotally, I've read tons complaining about GW. And yet...the numbers haven't decline. They're doing fine. All the thunder and lightning...and they're still about where they were. Odd.

Point is that for years, revenue growth is less than average price hike, so they sell 5-10% less products each year, meaning shrinking consumer base. At the same time for years, a major shareholder (Kirby) decides that shareholders get more money than total profits, so constantly draining the company for personal profit. This is a process that takes some time to reach a critical treshhold, but it eventually will reach it, as an extreme yes-man-company like GW has no control loops to stop that process.

Interesting theory, but wasn't the average price hike 3% this year? It looks like revenue growth was more than that, at slightly higher than 6%.

spaceelf wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Currently 98% of our Hobby centres have a trained manager and over half have a named successor ready to be deployed. We believe that this will help to ensure that our sales businesses are better able to respond to under-performance and deliver consistently high levels of customer service for our Hobbyists.

So half the GW stores have a named successor for their manager to increase motivation? Seems like they liked the Dark Eldar Codex and now use Pain markers to improve staff effectiveness Explains the aggressive sales strategies by the staff.

GW needs to learn that constantly changing managers destroys communities and as a result, hurts sales.

A successor doesn't necessarily mean anything more than they have a back up plan if someone leaves. Its very common in most industries. Some shops may be a one man operation, but some have 2 employs and if you have 2 people, you have a successor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Statesman wrote:Certainly, anecdotally, I've read tons complaining about GW. And yet...the numbers haven't decline. They're doing fine. All the thunder and lightning...and they're still about where they were. Odd.

Point is that for years, revenue growth is less than average price hike, so they sell 5-10% less products each year, meaning shrinking consumer base. At the same time for years, a major shareholder (Kirby) decides that shareholders get more money than total profits, so constantly draining the company for personal profit. This is a process that takes some time to reach a critical treshhold, but it eventually will reach it, as an extreme yes-man-company like GW has no control loops to stop that process.

Just curious, where do you get that they have a 5-10% drop in quantity sold? I just don't see that part. Its it in the MDA or a foot note? I know they bumped up the prices but I just don't see that the price increase resulted in less quantity this year. If that were true, there would be little to no growth this year - instead it looks like growth exceeded the price increases. The only thing, I saw of value was there change in revenue recognition on their royalties which if I recall was in note 10 and they recognized some of these royalties faster or over a shorter period. I will take another look at the statements to gauge the quantity piece but I just don't recall seeing that as the case. I could be wrong though as I am viewing the statements on my phone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:A PP employee told me that PP's total global sales were equal to 25% of GW's North American sales back in 2011 or about $12,000,000. To put in perspective, Privateer Press sales is only 6% of GW's total global sales.

I'll take that at face value (not sure - have no information in that regard) but look a bit closer just at what you have there.

Privateer press has no significant direct sales presence (their web store - but I would be willing to bet it accounts for a small fraction of sales). Most of their sales will be through a wholesale scheme. Fairly common is 40% discount. That kicks things up to $20,000,000. After that - you have to consider the entry level costs per person. While the two army starter set for both companies cost roughly the same - the person who bought the Warmachinie boxed set actually has two playable armies. To make a GW set playable in normal games - you would need to spend a good bit more money. While many people do purchase the various books for Warmachine - those also are not essential (since figures come with cards that have the important stuff on them). So, even discounting other items - the Warmachine is $50 cheaper to get someone started (or $25...if they only go in for one Codex at last years prices).

So - if you were to consider that the $20,000,000 would be used simply on new players buying starter sets (and the required items to be playable in general games) for a GW customer - it could bring in 160,000 whereas the PP comparable will get 200,000 new people playing. Of course it isn't that simple - things never are. However, that same story generally holds up as you make it more complicated. While PP is still only bringing in a small portion of the revenue which GW is - their sales are growing the customer base by a larger percentage. Places like the UK - this will largely seem like a mythical concept, but where GW products are primarily moved through independent stores - when Warhammer or 40K players see more people getting more stuff for their money, it tends to erode GW's hold on the market.

Good bit off topic I guess - but it goes to the point of GW sales falling and the reasoning why.

I fail to follow you on this, are you saying that GW doesn't have a wholesale or distribution system for their product? I'm not concerned with their Web presence as the lack of a Web presence isn't the fault of GW. That means PP needs to up their game. I thought they have a Web store, has that changed? You're comparing apples to oranges when you start discussing the two games as they are both very different. PP has a different model to their game and one its truly a skirmish game while the other is a larger battle. Neither game its better than the other, GW has take a different approach in that their game requires more models as a result you have to buy more. I think we should stay on topic and just discuss GW and their statements.

Sean_OBrien wrote:

silent25 wrote:A PP employee told me that PP's total global sales were equal to 25% of GW's North American sales back in 2011 or about $12,000,000. To put in perspective, Privateer Press sales is only 6% of GW's total global sales.

I'll take that at face value (not sure - have no information in that regard) but look a bit closer just at what you have there.

Privateer press has no significant direct sales presence (their web store - but I would be willing to bet it accounts for a small fraction of sales). Most of their sales will be through a wholesale scheme. Fairly common is 40% discount. That kicks things up to $20,000,000. After that - you have to consider the entry level costs per person. While the two army starter set for both companies cost roughly the same - the person who bought the Warmachinie boxed set actually has two playable armies. To make a GW set playable in normal games - you would need to spend a good bit more money. While many people do purchase the various books for Warmachine - those also are not essential (since figures come with cards that have the important stuff on them). So, even discounting other items - the Warmachine is $50 cheaper to get someone started (or $25...if they only go in for one Codex at last years prices).

Except that "actual value" of $20,000,000 applies both ways. GW doesn't make all it's revenue through direct sales either. You inflate PP's numbers, you inflate GW's numbers with the same logic. It's silly to try to argue that they are "actually bigger" because they aren't. PP doesn't have $8,000,000 more on hand to use. I'm pretty sure they wish they did though. That money is what retailers make on the sale of PP product.

Yes, PP does have a better entry level, but that also hurts their growth. You only need the starter set to build a competitive army. What need do you have to buy more? PP released both the war wagons and colossi, and the response is they aren't that powerful, so no real need to buy it. PP has spent considerable resources to make these models, but will not see a major return because not all players will buy it. It doesn't matter if you have a large player base if they don't spend money on your new products.

As much as we hate GW's imbalance and rule imperfections, it causes players to react to new rules and armies that unbalance things. Some people quit, others buy stuff in response. At my FLGS, one of the employees openly jokes about how he loves Matt Ward. Yes his fluff is atrocious and army books are as balanced as a one legged stool, but guess what. All his stuff sells. Grey Knights were an insane seller at the store and almost everyone who plays 40k has one.

Ketara wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:@Ketra

Perhaps you did not read fully the idiosyncrasies of the financial report, like some of us did.

I wasn't commenting on the 'idiosyncrasies of the financial report', rather the idiosyncrasies of a certain subsect of my fellow poster here on Dakka, and the bizarely pessimistic type of post which they promulgate.
I named no names, if you choose to identify and affiliate yourself with them, that's entirely your affair.

Okay. I now understand on where you are coming from. Thought it was about the report itself.

Edited: I made a previous comment and now I can not fine the data to back it up which is why it is removed. If I find it I'll re-post.

I think my favorite thing about how despite declining unit sales,, they've managed to increase revenue and profit with price hikes and thus stick around as a profitable company potentially for years to come is that it develops an excellent aftermarket.

I'm talking about bitz and accessory sellers like Maxmini.eu, Kromlech, etc.,.

GW's cancelling of the bitz service and their price increases have made for the perfect storm for other smaller guys to come in with small casting runs of great accessories at great prices.

In the 1990s when I started with 40k, the competition sucked. Other games would pop up and fizzle out. Those who made miniatures that might work with 40k made less than stellar ones (anyone remember Enigma from Quebec in Canada?).

The development of the internet combined with GW's price increases has created the market space for exactly what I'm looking for. Some of them are even starting to produce their own complete miniatures. Or they happen to make an accessory for every part of a miniature that you could theoretically use to build complete miniatures that look really awesome.

The more that I think of it, I want GW to continue on it's current path for a bit longer, despite it being frustrating for those looking for opponents for 40k and even more so, WFB.

They should keep raising prices to allow more and more miniature gaming companies into the market place. Dystopian Wars, Infinity, Privateer, etc., probably wouldn't be as successful without the customer base of frustrated and ex-GW customers.

I want more choice and more manufacturers. GW needs to keep raising their prices, slashing costs as they can and eeking out reasonable profit with relatively flat revenue while other companies pick up their market share.

Kirby and Wells can retire rich, the average price a miniature customer will pay can be pushed up and the market can be opened up to more and more competition. The only people that will be frustrated by this are those who think GW is making products for adults when they're actually targeting teens and those who think they're actually about selling games when it's really all about driving miniature sales.

Nice observation from Warseer:

Trasvi wrote:In the annual financial report lottery, Northern Europe and Scandinavia ended up in Europe, with attending 5M revenue and 1.5M profit. (They've previously been part of Europe, UK, and Asia)...

Now waiting for next years report, when Germany will be part of UK

@frozen wastes.... Yep, fully agree, have had the same discussion a number of times with old time gamers. As some one else pointed out " Thanks GW, you have pushed me to look at other games!"

The aftermarket is indeed good, and assuming the whole chapterhouse thing sets some presidents for people to work within it can only get better. As a friend of mine jokes are Mantic actually a secret arm of GW? Like the reverse of forgeworld, so they can still cash in on the cheap gamer? (not suggesting they are, just a joke)

I lived through the gamming crash which was the 90's where good solid companies made the mistake of taking their eye off the prize which is unfortunatly "Make Money" and I am glad GW still do that which fuel both after market 3rd party sales and a steady stream of ex GW players who provide income to other gamming companies letting them start up and keep in business!

Would I rather return to the good old days of 3 Rhino's for £10, sure I would, would that keep GW in business and inadvertantly supporting so many otger businesses, nope!

frozenwastes wrote:In the 1990s when I started with 40k, the competition sucked. Other games would pop up and fizzle out. Those who made miniatures that might work with 40k made less than stellar ones (anyone remember Enigma from Quebec in Canada?).

The development of the internet combined with GW's price increases has created the market space for exactly what I'm looking for. Some of them are even starting to produce their own complete miniatures. Or they happen to make an accessory for every part of a miniature that you could theoretically use to build complete miniatures that look really awesome.

The more that I think of it, I want GW to continue on it's current path for a bit longer, despite it being frustrating for those looking for opponents for 40k and even more so, WFB.

They should keep raising prices to allow more and more miniature gaming companies into the market place. Dystopian Wars, Infinity, Privateer, etc., probably wouldn't be as successful without the customer base of frustrated and ex-GW customers.

These comments got me to thinking...perhaps the question isn't about the increase or decrease of GW sales, rather, the increase/decrease of the total market. While GW sales have been fairly stable, there has been an increase in the number of players (CB, PP, Mantic, etc.) which means, in general, the total market size has increased. It's an interesting question (to me at least) to consider % market share and how GW policies/practices may be limiting their growth opportunities and reducing their market share.

AJC

Druidic wrote:@frozen wastes.... Yep, fully agree, have had the same discussion a number of times with old time gamers. As some one else pointed out " Thanks GW, you have pushed me to look at other games!"

The aftermarket is indeed good, and assuming the whole chapterhouse thing sets some presidents for people to work within it can only get better. As a friend of mine jokes are Mantic actually a secret arm of GW? Like the reverse of forgeworld, so they can still cash in on the cheap gamer? (not suggesting they are, just a joke)

Even if GW totally and completely wins against Chapterhouse, getting the judge to rule in their favour in everything they claim, all it will do is transform the 3rd party accessory makers into ones that simply get smarter about how they describe and sell their product in terms of copyright law and likeness to GW imagery.

Mantic might have started out as the lower quality budget alternative, but their products are improving drastically. I think their prices will stay substantially lower than GW's, but their quality will continue to increase. Check out these conversions that someone made to use Mantic stuff for 40k:

http://www.gowarhead.com/p/hammering-warpath.html

AJCarrington wrote:
These comments got me to thinking...perhaps the question isn't about the increase or decrease of GW sales, rather, the increase/decrease of the total market. While GW sales have been fairly stable, there has been an increase in the number of players (CB, PP, Mantic, etc.) which means, in general, the total market size has increased. It's an interesting question (to me at least) to consider % market share and how GW policies/practices may be limiting their growth opportunities and reducing their market share.

AJC

GW has had the stance that life time gamers weren't worth pursuing in terms of customer retention. They want teenagers to come it, try the demo sales process, buy stuff from a year or two and if they leave then, a new teenager will take their place. Ex-employees working above the store level have confirmed GW's expected customer lifespan as being around 18 months to 2 years.

But what about those who were recruited by the demo sales process who would be life time gamers? They too might fire GW as a supplier within a few years (though many stick around longer), but they are also more likely to be serious about their hobby, use third party bitz sites, find out about other games like Warmachine/Hordes/Flames of War and become part of the larger gaming market rather than just remain GW's customer.

I'd be pretty confident in saying that a large majority of both Privateer and Battlefront's customer base were also at one time GW's customers (or perhaps still are). I definitely think GW's practices limit their market share, even as they continue to create and expand it.

People might be contesting that this year's results show a continued decline in unit sales (and if you count each pot of paint as a unit sold, they'd be right, but irrelevant), but is anyone really contesting that the price increases of core products has gone up dramatically (doubling in some cases) over the last 7 years? And correspondingly revenue has stayed relatively flat, but increased a bit. GW has either lost customers or their existing customers are buying less, or (most likely) some combination of the above.

Those customers they have lost (or now share with competitors) who are predisposed to being lifetime hobbyists aren't going to go disappear. Thanks to the internet, there is also a cross pollination starting between fantasy, sci-fi and historical miniature gaming. Gaming conventions are getting record attendance levels and the internet is allowing manufacturers to communicate directly with their customers in a way not previously possible. Now a talented sculptor in Eastern Europe can sell miniatures and accessories to anyone in the world without the need for any traditional distribution and retailer support. Be they bitz sellers adding aftermarket parts for 40k or historical miniatures like those sold by Oddzial Osmy.

It's probably more likely than ever before that a GW customer will have the opportunity to spend part of their hobby budget on non-GW accessories, and that if they ever decided that GW's offerings are not for them, that they'll find a place to land rather than quitting the hobby.

Maybe GW will one day figure out how to go after the large life long gamer market they helped create, but currently don't target. If they can do that alongside their demo sales process targeting new teenage customers, I think they'll see an uncontested return to growth in core units sold.

I think it begins with a total rethink of their flagship product from a perspective of designing a complete customer experience rather than the organically grown customer experience that has resulted from codex and edition redesigns being staggered. A majority of GW's customers never play their games-- while Jervis has called them "craft hobbyists" and assumed they don't play because they don't want to, perhaps there is room for sales expansion if they can get those people (and lapsed life long gamer customers) to reevaluate that decision with a designed from the ground up 40k product?

I didn't say GW had to loose to chapterhouse, just that resolutions will finally set out some guidelines and clear some things up!

notprop wrote:Interesting Mr OBrien but longer this thread goes on the more we get back to the old adage that Statistics can be used to prove anything.

Cartainly in 87.9% of cases.

84% of the statistics presented in Internet discussions are completely made up.

Druidic wrote:I didn't say GW had to loose to chapterhouse, just that resolutions will finally set out some guidelines and clear some things up!

Definitely. It'll probably end up in the middle between GW completely winning and the 3rd party accessory market getting leaner and more deliberate about avoiding lawsuits (possibly by making sure to develop their own miniature lines that their parts are compatible with and being more wary of likeness and trademarks) and the other extreme of GW losing the case and the flood gates opening as people realize GW's IP isn't as protectable as they'd like.

Either way, as long as GW sticks around with their flat-to-moderately rising revenue, the better it is for life long gamers in terms of other companies bringing new and interesting products to market for them to enjoy. And I'm not just talking about bitz manufacturers, but complete alternatives like Privateer's products and Battlefront's.

frozenwastes wrote:
Mantic might have started out as the lower quality budget alternative, but their products are improving drastically. I think their prices will stay substantially lower than GW's, but their quality will continue to increase. Check out these conversions that someone made to use Mantic stuff for 40k:

http://www.gowarhead.com/p/hammering-warpath.html

Those are possibly the coolest examples of Mantic models I have ever seen. They need to stick those on their website pronto.

Pacific wrote:Those are possibly the coolest examples of Mantic models I have ever seen. They need to stick those on their website pronto.

I don't know if Mantic would want to be that blatant in saying 'Use us for GW games!'

pretre wrote:

Pacific wrote:Those are possibly the coolest examples of Mantic models I have ever seen. They need to stick those on their website pronto.

I don't know if Mantic would want to be that blatant in saying 'Use us for GW games!'

Sure they would, Mantic is very cool and pragmatic about using their models for other companies games, and using other models in KoW & Warpath.

And in fact - some shots of that army were on the Mantic blog just yesterday.

Oh. Wacky. Fair enough then.

Schmapdi wrote:

pretre wrote:

Pacific wrote:Those are possibly the coolest examples of Mantic models I have ever seen. They need to stick those on their website pronto.

I don't know if Mantic would want to be that blatant in saying 'Use us for GW games!'

Sure they would, Mantic is very cool and pragmatic about using their models for other companies games, and using other models in KoW & Warpath.

And in fact - some shots of that army were on the Mantic blog just yesterday.

In all likelihood mantic models are used more for 40k and fantasy than for mantics games. They're probably aware of that too.

frozenwastes wrote:GW has had the stance that life time gamers weren't worth pursuing in terms of customer retention. They want teenagers to come it, try the demo sales process, buy stuff from a year or two and if they leave then, a new teenager will take their place. Ex-employees working above the store level have confirmed GW's expected customer lifespan as being around 18 months to 2 years.

I definitely get the targeted approach (not agreeing with it, but understanding it). It's just interesting (from a business perspective) as one could argue that their model is effectively increasing the market size, but they are not necessarily reaping the benefits of the larger market. At the end of the day, their business, their call.

AJC

pretre wrote:Oh. Wacky. Fair enough then.

One of the characteristics of a smaller game company trying to muscle in on the big boys on the block is that you have to try and offer concessions and give more than your market-place opponents do, and I think this is just an example of that. It will be interesting to see if (or when?) this changes if Mantic ever start to get big, and therefore bigger in their boots.

Pacific wrote:

pretre wrote:Oh. Wacky. Fair enough then.

One of the characteristics of a smaller game company trying to muscle in on the big boys on the block is that you have to try and offer concessions and give more than your market-place opponents do, and I think this is just an example of that. It will be interesting to see if (or when?) this changes if Mantic ever start to get big, and therefore bigger in their boots.

I think the answer is obvious, most companies (people for that matter) do what they can get away with. Mantic would sell $1000 plastic individual models if they could, as would most people on here.