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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I suppose you could see if you could get him to let you use allies from the old Daemonhunters Codex and surprise the Flamers with the old 36"/S6/AP4/Heavy 3/Ignores Invulnerable saves psycannons, but that's a bit of a long shot.

lol I was so glad those didn't make a comeback ^^

It boils down to two basic lines of reasoning. If you can't find a way to beat it via rules, then there has to be a solution tactically.

There was a thing on 3++ the other day that explained this whole "problem"

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

The bastion is a bad idea. If a flame template touches a fire point everybody inside takes d6 hits. If 6 templates touch a fire point the unit will take 6d6 hits, averaging out to about 21 hits or 10.5 wounds no armor or cover.

The librarian and thunder fire are good ideas, and good for an all comers list. The tfc really punishes flamers if they choose to fire on the turn they deepstrike and remain clustered.

Null zone has been my bane when playing daemons. Going after the null zone librarian is always my top priority.

Only real safe place would be in a full 10 man squad of th/ss termies.

I know you are talking about your experience with Flamers, but what about screamers? Screamers with invisibility power have 2+ cover and are making every unit in close combat WS1. They have AP 2 and they have Armorbane. They also can fly over hordes to do amazing dammage to them. Getting "invisibility" is nothing certain, but with very cheap sorcerer (or two of them) level 3 you have a good chance.

Has anyone played against them? If your answer is "yes", what can you recommend to stop them?

How is it 2+ cover?

Screamers/Flamers dont really need invisibility IMHO. Its a big point investment to cast it in them, and their already durable enough.
(You need to ally in a lvl 2 psyker, and ally in the troops)

For those points you can just buy more flamers/screamers.

I agree

Unless you are playing a CSM list with allied daemons.

 schadenfreude wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

The bastion is a bad idea. If a flame template touches a fire point everybody inside takes d6 hits. If 6 templates touch a fire point the unit will take 6d6 hits, averaging out to about 21 hits or 10.5 wounds no armor or cover.

The librarian and thunder fire are good ideas, and good for an all comers list. The tfc really punishes flamers if they choose to fire on the turn they deepstrike and remain clustered.

Good point about being inside. What about sitting on top? Difficult to get flamer templates to touch the top of the bastion and the Libby can shoot the gun on top when needed.

 jy2 wrote:
Unless you are playing a CSM list with allied daemons.

This is the case

Flamers hit the top as normal... As it is oly 1 floor up...

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
How is it 2+ cover?

Jink+turbo-boost+Invisibility=2+ cover

Ah....

Jink is 5+, invisibility makes it 2+. No need for turbo boost.

Unless you have the vindicator well wrapped, they will kill it before it fires. If the player is good, you will struggle to do a lot to him with that vindy. Just saying...

Flamers are freaking awesome. Seriously.

GK should end them - stike squads to keep them out of flamer range on the deep strike and storm bolters and psycannons to shoot them to death.

Unless you can pump out > 21 wounds per squad, you are going to get flamed.

What do you mean by wrapped?

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

 Rampage wrote:

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

Fairly hard to do actually, especially if its a risky Daemons player. That said though I'd rather flame the squad anyway ^^

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

Fairly hard to do actually, especially if its a risky Daemons player. That said though I'd rather flame the squad anyway ^^

True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

 Rampage wrote:
True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

They're required to cover as much of the target unit as possible - so hitting the tank behind the unit isn't as easy as you think.
It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either - even assuming a direct hit on the Deep Strike.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

They're required to cover as much of the target unit as possible - so hitting the tank behind the unit isn't as easy as you think.
It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either - even assuming a direct hit on the Deep Strike.

Well surely if you're close enough and firing from the front of the weapon then you'd hit the covering unit with a shorter width of the template and go through. Although I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

Cant have 2 thunderfires, only 1 heavy support in a allied attachment, I know because i was going to run this yesterday.

I ran a BA list with 2 devi squads, sang priest and corbulo 2 libbys (one ba with divi powers, one SM with null zone and gate) scout squad with heavy bolter, thunderfire, storm raven assault squad with flamers and tac squad with plasma cannon and storm raven oh and 3 hyperios AND sternguard. All but the ASM's and SR were on a skyshield, he deepstruck the flamers under the skyshield and everyone around it (10 horrors, 2x 10 plague bearers) really restricting what I could fire at, which I knew would be the issue with the skyshield.

My first turn of shooting was at the plague bearers as I could see both squads with the bulk of my troops on either side of the skyshield, one squad had 1 left and the other 2 which just cost me first blood. my assault marines where combat squaded out in the open which was a mistake, they got wiped out for first blood for him. The skyshield really restricted his units though, the flamers killed 1 tac squad in 3 turns and that was because I let him wound stuff he couldnt see as he didnt agree that while using templates he couldnt kill what you cant see and as the skyshield is cheese I let him.

It was 2k point game and at the end I had 10 sternguard left, SR, both libbys, corbulo, hyperios x2 and 3 scouts left, he had 8 horrors, 3 plague bearers and 3 flamers left. So it was close but I knew from the off the limitations the skyshield imposes, even more so when facing demons that are in your deployment turn 1 (against deployed armies, different story totaly I would say).

If you check my previous threads it has a list of his demons in it, and that was against just 1 group of 9 flamers, they really are hard to beat in my limited experince. And I was made to go first and there wasnt one mishap.

Basically you are going to rarely, if ever, win this matchup.

The suggestions to take Coteaz with an allied GK detachment is good advice, but it won't be enough to stop 3 full squads of flamers.
Especially if he is also running screamers.

If these are friendly games, I would suggest having your friend limit the flamers to 1 or 2 squads of 6 MAX in his list. They are not balanced and don't
make for a fair matchup. These are supposed to be fun games, not mini ard boyz' where everyone cheeses out and abuses everything.

fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The english one has been out for a while. This is why I said I'll wait. Translations always have errors.

They Have the Codex Daemon Rule, but benefit from 5++ and Fear as per the FAQ. Everything in the codex has this.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Q: Do models chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons and / or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Chaos Daemons official update have the
Daemon special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, or do they
have the Daemon army special rule from Codex: Chaos Daemons?
(p27)
A: All models from Codex: Chaos Daemons and/or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Daemons official update have the
Daemon army special rule listed in Codex: Chaos Daemons
with the addition of the Fear special rule from the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook and a 5+ invulnerable save.