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 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.

Reading comprehension fail...

No one has suggested ditching every single melta/plasma/lascannon. Rather, we've been suggesting you don't max-out on purely anti-tank/TEQ weapons.

In a TAC Space Wolves list, there's nothing wrong with for example, going for 3 Longfang squads that are set-up with say only 1 pure-missile launcher squad, plus a pair of Heavy Bolter + Missile launcher equiped squads. If you want more flexibility, add in a Rune Priest or two with Living Lightning for an effect D6 shot autocannon.
Depending on your opposition you can even alter your casulty removal. For example, against Daemons with few MC's, let the missiles eat the first bullets, leaving your multi-shot guns to keep pumping out shots. Against a mech list, let the heavy b's fall first and preserve those more valuable missile shots.

By that same token, if you don't want to run the risk of your Grey Hunters being unable to deal with a particular type of target, then vary their weapon upgrades. 1x flamer, 1x meltagun & 1x Powerfist makes for a decently costed all-rounder unit.
Yes, it doesn't 100% specialise against 1 particular type of target, but it's not left high and dry either, or over-equiped to deal with a specific threat. (ie: trying to us meltaguns vs horde Orks or Daemons who don't give a flying rat's fart about S8/ap1 'uberness)

Bring a few transports and/or Land Speeders to supliment those heavy weapons you feel you're lacking in. If you went more anti-infantry on your Grey Hunters, then pack multi-meltas and typhoon launchers/asscans. If you've got the enemy armour covered, take things like heavy b's, asscans or heavy flamers.

Use allies to cover any percieved weaknesses as well. While Strikes and/or Interceptors are jerk moves to pull on a Daemon player, (espeically more than a single squad), if you really don't want to think about anything, spam Warp Quake and laugh. Bring in a Dreadknight and use him to chase down that Herald. Heck, a gatling psylencer is good against infantry in general, while an incinerator is ace for digging units out from behind the copious amounts of Aegis Defense Lines that have been cropping up!
Screamers fall flat against a large unit of Deathcults who are faster and can easily be given S6 attacks w/power mauls. Crusaders come with storm shields for cheap for soaking up not just Screamer attacks, but anything else like Hammernators, Incubi, Rending hits, power axes/fists, etc...



The main point though; you can NEVER! build a 100% TAC list that will easily answer any potential opponent!!! That's why spam-lists are so effective - because they go all-in on one aspect of the game to the point that your opponent can't kill it all! It's simply a hard-counter type of play that in itself is susceptible only to it's own hard-counter.

Flamer/Screamer spam for example is hugely difficult for TAC's Marine lists because it's a pure hard-counter to lower model, high armour save armies. It falls flat however if it runs into an IG gunline which outshoots it, or an Orky horde which out combats it.
Mech spam was king in 5th because most armies couldn't produce high enough volumes of S8+ to ensure lots of penetrating hits. Again though, it got face-punched in turn by the likes of DoA's lists or Drop Pod Marines who had reduced/safer scatter and plentifull access to Troops with meltaguns.
GK's for example killed the above through the introduction of Warp Quake, but could also be built around MSU spam, or vehicle spam, or wound-allocation TEQ spam...

TAC's lists don't easily answer spam, hence why spam is prefered. What a true TAC's list has to do in such a situation is play strictly to the mission and realise you're going to lose a good chunk of your army!
That Daemon list for example can't hold objectives worth crap. Plaguebearers are slow as feth and typically come in small squads that aren't nearly as resilient as they were in 5th when you could make them 3++/4+ FnP. If you're playing an objective game, kill their Troops, feed those killer units some sacrifical lambs and try to simply hold out on top of those objectives you can manage.

Yes he ignored those downsides, he also ignored the fact they are 2 wounds a piece. Flamers get double the wounds, a invul save, eternal warrior, a flamer attack which ignores armour and cover saves, a assault 3 attack for 5 pts more. ASM get a 12" range 1 shot BP attack. I know what I would rather have

Actually my math showed that W2 5++ is the same as a 3+ save, and adding EW to that is the same as making the 3+ save on the marines invulnerable.

Most of the....angst...about this whole setup is that it's not balanced. What it takes to cut down 9 flamers is not even remotely close to the damage those flamers do in return. The number crunching earlier showed that it takes 3 full Long Fang squads, or 3 full Grey Hunter squads to put down a flamer squad, but an untouched, or even half strength squad of flamers will bury a LF or GH squad a turn. It's the whole 100ish points of flamers does similar damage to 500+ points of space wolves.

As for constructive criticism. Standard wolf list, rhino borne GH, some with meltas, some with plasma, at least 1 squad with double or triple (combi) flamers. Missile fangs, rune priest, maybe a TW Lord with storm shield and either a powerfist or more likely a wolf claw, maybe in a fenris wolf squad, couple of Lone Wolves (termie armor, SS, powerfist). Build a wall around your deployment zone with the rhinos and castle up, leaving firing lanes for your LFs, in case the rhinos end up wrecked or immobilized. Try to shift your army away from some of the flamers and focus squads down. Take every advantage possible of pre-measuring to make sure you are out of the flamer death range. Use the TWL, fenris wolves and Lone Wolves to charge depleted squads, their storm shields should keep them alive against 2-3 flamers, and the wolves are cheap enough and have enough wounds to eat some damage as well.

I imagine objective missions are going to be....difficult, as you are going to be spending the first 3-4 turns just trying not to get tabled, but hopefully you will have enough stuff left to make a push on the plaguebrearers camping the objectives.

valace2 wrote:
[Orcs maybe but they have to get within 18" maybe thats doable if Screamers haven't already strafed the orcs and then blocked them from the flamers, if the flamers get a good drop and that is possible you don't have 30 left.

... Shoot 2 units of guardians into them, ok fine now you have dumped 320 points worth of shooting into a 200 point squad. Not a good trade off point wise especially when there are 1-2 other flamer units running around

Now we will look at Fire Warriors, they get within 15 to rapid fire and dump 24 shots into the Flamers, 12 hit and around 7-8 wound deamons make 2-3 saves so they have lost 3 flamers at best the remaining 6 come in and cook the fire warriors.

Now a 300 point termagaunt brood with devourers are going to do some damage but why in the world would you stick 300 points into a gaunt brood. with 3 shots a piece at WS3 you are going to get around 60 shots and then wound 30 of those yea the daemons are in trouble but they just got smacked by a 300point gaunt brood. That brood does sound pretty damn vicious. If there was a way to get divination for them jesus that would be a lot of pain.

And if the flamers get a bad drop they are either in back in reserve, somewhere really inconvenient or dead before a shot is even fired.

Except all those troops are weak by themselves but posess army buffs that make them far beyond their parts, guide and doom on guardians, markerlights for your fire warriors (try doing the maths with BS5 Fire Warriors), endurance, preferred enemy, toxin, adrenal for your gaunts (Devourers are way overcosted for such a fragile platform IMO)

Your assumptions are always that they cannot be charged because it will cost you 1 model per flamer. For marines this is a huge issue, but I will happily drop 30 gaunts on them for 150pts, lose 9 on the charge and tie them up grinding them away over the next few turns.

You also assume that because you need 400pts to wipe out 250pts of flamers that you are on to a losing battle. In that instance the daemon player is down 250pts and you are down 0, and of course to get 3 flamers and 3 screamers units he must have 5 units in reserve giving you a point advantage in the early game as he comes in piecemeal. If I have to fire all 1500pts of my army to wipe out 600pts of aggressivly placed flamers turn 1 it's not a loss because his screamers beat up some of my guys turn 2, I removed half the teeth of his army meaning his screamers are now all that stands between me and those piddly 5 man scoring units he needs to win him the game and this is turn 2...

Daemons are finally competetive, they have a strong build that rewards highly aggressive deployment (which in itself is dangerous as you may well kill your own troops) and they are particularly strong against the kind of power armoured builds that have been dominating the meta of late. I feel both units are accurately costed for glass cannons and provide a wonderful counter to marines and heavily armoured foes. They risk so much on the scatter die and don't have the durability to take a solid punch back.

It's true that I feel no sympathy for a SW player crying cheese but if I thought they were OP I'd still agree with you but I just don't. It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.

For what it's worth, in my experience Daemons have always been a bad match up for Marine-based armies. Most of my losses using Daemons have been at the hands of IG (gunline) and Dark Eldar (also with lots of shooting). Armies like Blood Angels are almost an auto-win for Daemons, and have been since 5th Edition, well before the Flamers were buffed.

Also, while I'm enjoying my Daemons stomping on my opponents, I will admit that Flamers were already good before the WD update, they are at least borderline broken (good) now. I almost feel guilty using them and am considering removing them from lists that I use against friends.

 undertow wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.

For what it's worth, in my experience Daemons have always been a bad match up for Marine-based armies. Most of my losses using Daemons have been at the hands of IG (gunline) and Dark Eldar (also with lots of shooting). Armies like Blood Angels are almost an auto-win for Daemons, and have been since 5th Edition, well before the Flamers were buffed.

Also, while I'm enjoying my Daemons stomping on my opponents, I will admit that Flamers were already good before the WD update, they are at least borderline broken (good) now. I almost feel guilty using them and am considering removing them from lists that I use against friends.

Flamers & Screamers are simply undercosted right now, mainly because they have Eternal Warrior. Lose that rule, and suddenly they go back to being glass cannons that will still absolutely wreck anything they touch, but be very vulnerable to being hit back hard in return.
Before the update, Flamers were solid value for alpha-striking key units with 3 templates of death. Easy to land, big rewards, and only 105pts worth of risk. Screamers however were utter pants! 17pts flying melta bombs. Sure for 53pts you may as well have taken a squad or two since nothing else in our Fast section was really worth it and vehicles were everywhere! But overall, when it would cost you $45(can) for 3, why waste the money on such an overall crap unit?!

I'm firmly in the camp that believes we'll be losing army-wide Eternal Warrior come February. If that happens, then the WD Flamers & Screamers will be worth their cost. They'll hit just as hard as they do now, but S8+ becomes a solid and viable counter meaning that simply spaming 27+27 of the suckers is no longer an 'easy-button' brainless-kill-all solution.



For now, the keys to fighting this nightmare are still the same tactics that worked like a charm in 5th;
a) castle-up your deployment so the Daemons alpha-strike potential is hugely risky.

b) hide in transports because Daemons suck at killing vehicles at range.

c) focus fire on the Icons to prevent accurate Deep Striking and look to cripple units.
4-5 Screamers getting charged by a competent assault unit will simply fold. Flamers either need to be multi-charged, or else hit them with larger 20+ strong units.

Has anyone suggested a null zone Librarian yet?

Sorry I stopped reading past page 2

oftenwrong wrote:
Has anyone suggested a null zone Librarian yet?

Sorry I stopped reading past page 2

Space Wolves don't get Null Zone. List tailoring via an allied Librarian would defeat the whole TAC mindset here.

So no, no one has suggested that.

Looking for a competitive, TAC Space Wolves list that can still beat Daemons? Uh..did you check the results from NOVA?

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Elites1: Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist
Elites2: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Elites3: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Troops1: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Troops2: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Troops3: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Troops4: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Troops5: Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Troops(Guard):
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

H.Support1: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers
H.Support2: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers

Enough bodies to cover the table, screen what you really need to protect, and force Daemons to deploy where you want them. Loads of anti-infantry shooting in the hands of numerous, durable scoring units. Enough units to sacrifice one or two as Flamerbait (or just assault with the Guard Blob which shouldn't mind Wall of Death much at all). Everything's pretty hard to roll over in assault as well. As a Daemons player, Tony's list would be one of the scariest things I could imagine seeing across the table. Right up there with Strike/Interceptor spam and Green Tide. So of course TAC Space Wolves can still beat Daemons. They have, the list above is your proof.

I would agree with the premise that, since 6th Edition rolled around, building a balanced list has become a lot more challenging. Everyone needs to build to beat elites, hordes, Flyerspam and everything in between. But at the same time, Allies make every army capable of a lot more flexibility. The options are there if you're willing to look. In the case of Space Wolves, you've got plenty. Hunters/Fangs are the envy of every other MEQ army for a reason: they are extremely point-efficient, powerful, and versatile. Grey Hunters alone are a very strong "core" for any army, probably the best troop in the game. Long Fangs remain the best fire support your points can buy. Then you can ally in IG, GK, even Eldar for flavor. Or if Allies aren't your thing, take TWC or max out on Hunters/Fangs like in 5th (but seriously, why hamstring yourself?)

 Carnage43 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:
Has anyone suggested a null zone Librarian yet?

Sorry I stopped reading past page 2

Space Wolves don't get Null Zone. List tailoring via an allied Librarian would defeat the whole TAC mindset here.

So no, no one has suggested that.

Because Null Zone is useless against other armies, amirite?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:
Has anyone suggested a null zone Librarian yet?

Sorry I stopped reading past page 2

Space Wolves don't get Null Zone. List tailoring via an allied Librarian would defeat the whole TAC mindset here.

So no, no one has suggested that.

Because Null Zone is useless against other armies, amirite?

Even if it was useless against other armies, you can always swap the powers out for something from the rulebook. I've given people this exact advice in person after beating them. Null Zone ruins my day.

Null zone is situational and yes, it's very good against daemons. The reason that Space Wolves wouldn't use an allied librarian is that you have to take a troops option and, bikes aside, Space Marine troops bring nothing to the table for Space Wolves.

The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.

Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.

Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.

And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.

I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.

reaper with no name wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.

Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.

Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.

And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.

I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.

It's almost like certain lists have pros and cons against certain types of armies.

Who would have guessed?

reaper with no name wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.

Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.

Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.

And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.

I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.

Or rather, perhaps 6th edition requires players to use that lump between their ears a bit more than 5th ed did?!

For example;
Flyer spam can be built to curbstomp hordes. FCM's especially are brutal to infantry. People need to stop thinking this game still revolves around 'spam X meltaguns = profit'.

Mech lists are no longer point-and-click button armies anymore due to HP's. Transports are still vital tools, but people need to pull their heads outa their and wake up to the fact you can't sit inside 6-8+ transports and win games on the last turn anymore.

Flamers & Screamers are designed to eat high armour save units, but can't defend nearly as well against bunkered opposition. Those transports people think are so useless now? Hide in them when the hell gribblies come and suddenly all they can do is kill a 50 odd point transport and then get blasted point blank...
Wall of Death doesn't mean Flamers are impossible to assault, just that you have to throw multiple squads at the same unit.
Units with Invulns of their own, (storm shields - hint-hint!), or else lack a decent armour save negate the main abilities of Screamers.

 MrScience wrote:


It's almost like certain entire codexes have pros and cons against certain types of specific units.

Who would have guessed?

Fixed that for you.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Flamers & Screamers are designed to eat high armour save units, but can't defend nearly as well against bunkered opposition. Those transports people think are so useless now? Hide in them when the hell gribblies come and suddenly all they can do is kill a 50 odd point transport and then get blasted point blank...
Wall of Death doesn't mean Flamers are impossible to assault, just that you have to throw multiple squads at the same unit.
Units with Invulns of their own, (storm shields - hint-hint!), or else lack a decent armour save negate the main abilities of Screamers.

And then the surviving flamers (you won't kill them all in one shooting phase) destroy your marines.


The real question we should be asking is, are flamers and screamers being able to trash marines necessarily a bad thing? The obvious answer would be no, but on the other hand, xenos have been forced to endure this kind of situation many times. Perhaps it's time for a little payback?

Personally, I think it's perfectly acceptable for flamers and screamers to be highly effective against marines relative to their point costs. However, I do think they are just a little bit too much as they are currently. But there are much bigger problems in the game right now, so they need to get in line.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?

That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.

So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday

Thats not really being cheesy, cheesy is more about min-maxing.

Think of it as an RTS game. If someone was playing as America they may have 1 Abram with several squads of infantry armed with M-16s supporting it. Thats fluffy because thats something that would normally occur.

Cheesy would massing nothing but LAV with Anti Tank modifications and directing firing the ground if enemy infantry show up. The key for that to be cheesy is that if massing LAVs is considered OP or something because of their ungodly speed, decent armor, and massive punch they have. In reality no one would ever assault a town with a force like that but in a game, eh feth it, whats stopping you.

In the game Shattered Union, massing LAVs in a low point game could be fething devesating if it wasnt for the fact they cant attack infantry but with that speed, it doesnt matter because the infantry will never be able to hit them.

reaper with no name wrote:

The real question we should be asking is, are flamers and screamers being able to trash marines necessarily a bad thing? The obvious answer would be no, but on the other hand, xenos have been forced to endure this kind of situation many times. Perhaps it's time for a little payback?

Two wrongs does not make a right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Two wrongs does not make a right.

But three lefts does!

 Kaldor wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Two wrongs does not make a right.

But three lefts does!

You're right!