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an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.

How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.

I imagine people hate necron flying circus because they cram so many damn flyers down your throat.

But yes, daemons become pretty damn annoying to play against. There's a reason they're apparently doing so good in tourny settings.

From what I can tell, you have two choices. Get some cheap hordes to bubble wrap important units, or run GK and spam warp quake.

Cheese against cheese sadly.

valace2 wrote:
an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.

How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.

Take two Grey Knight strike squads as allies. Fire off Warp Quake, and watch them squirm.

 Necroshea wrote:
I imagine people hate necron flying circus because they cram so many damn flyers down your throat.

But yes, daemons become pretty damn annoying to play against. There's a reason they're apparently doing so good in tourny settings.

From what I can tell, you have two choices. Get some cheap hordes to bubble wrap important units, or run GK and spam warp quake.

Cheese against cheese sadly.

The group I game with doesn't play cheese we run fun competitive stuff, we have one daemon player but he doesn't spam flamers or screamers, he uses some of them but in small squads. Our local store hosted a tourney today and we had 3 guys come from out of the area and they brought 2 daemon an one Necron spam list. The Necron list wasn't near as bad as the daemon lists. I can put together a good GK anti daemon list but then the guys in my group who run Blood Angels or Eldar would pick it apart. I don't think that there is a good all comer Space Wolf list that can beat daemon spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

valace2 wrote:
an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.

How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.

Take two Grey Knight strike squads as allies. Fire off Warp Quake, and watch them squirm.

I am going to have to do that in the next tourney, maybe even take interceptor squads with the strike squads, blow the tourney but hose the daemon spam players.

I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?

That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.

So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday

Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

However the US military doesn't play to points limits do they? The point is, both sides are supposed to be equivalent in ability, whether thats quality vs quantity or such like, they are equal. That equality seems hard to find in this case.

Cheers

Andrew

 Formosa wrote:
Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.

Daemons have always been a solid competitive army, until GK's showed up and ruined them. Even before the WD update, you still had scary, evil lists like 'Fatecrusher' or 'Fatefiend' or 'Eppibombs' to deal with.
The army simply got a bad rap due to it's rather strange and unique deployment, and that its learning curve was slightly greater than even Dark Eldar!


As for how to deal with the new WD 'cheese' lists that spam 18-27 Flamers and Screamers? Bolters, bolters, and more bolters.

Never, ever, EVER! waste your S8+ shots on Flamers & Screamers because every single Daemon has the Eternal Warrior rule! Instead, threat those T4/5++ gribblies like you would any old ork... Basic guns and, (ironically), flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons and their ilk will shred those units. Even with the likes of Fateweaver's re-rolls, you'll still chew through those 5++ saves in no time.
Obviously, you don't want to ever assault Flamers unless there's only a couple of 'em left! Since SW's lack ready access to cost effective Storm Shield equiped units, you could instead turn in one of those Missilefang packs for a 'Bolterfang' pack. Swap out one or two of your Grey Hunter units' melta/plasma guns for a pair of Flamers. Daemons still have trouble opening up armour at range, especially on their first turn before we can assault!

Screamers can be delt with in assaults provided you have a unit with I5 or better. (IIRC, aren't Thunderwolves I5?!) If not, swap in some Power Lances on those guys who can take power toys, and some Storm Shields to soak-up the ap2 attacks.
And remember, Screamers are still a Tzeentchian unit, meaning they're WS is pitifull! They'll need 4's to hit you back, while you'll happily smash them in the face on a 3+. Plus, the unit has no way to issue Challenges outside of attatching an IC to the unit, so any of you own combat HQ's can go bonkers laying into the unit.

Don't have any I5+ units that are decent assaulters? Then treat Screamers like you would Flamers and shoot them up with masses of basic guns!


Using equally donkeycave moves like spaming Warp Quake is simply proving you're no better than the spamy jerk in the first place IMHO. Most Daemon players who've hung around this long with the army aren't the stupid gits running the newest, latest 'uber spam list.
Besides, it's far more satisfying to beat such TFG's with a balanced list and solid battleplan than to simply go for the quick-fix solution. If you do bring GK's and Warp Quake him, then next time he'll likely trade in a few of his Daemons for a min unit of Cultists and plasma-spaming Havocs/Chosen to try and alpha-strike you Knights.

Beat the dumb, spamy git with brains and he'll be at a complete loss as to how to counter you!

Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save

 sfshilo wrote:
Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save

You may want to read the point costs again man... Flamers and Screamers are *incredibly* cheap, and will toast Grey Hunters any day of the week.

To the OP : Screamers and Flamers can be beaten, but only through superior tactic, sheer luck or a combination of both. Right now they're the most broken units in the game, because GW wanted to sell their new kit. Wait until February when the rumored Chaos Daemon codex comes out and they'll be brought into line.

I wouldn't dare to eat Daemons.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?

That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.

So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday

lol. Thats funny. Wasn't criticizing the players, am heavily criticizing the units. Its a game, comparing it to real life is kind of silly. And with the changes to vehicle rules Space Wolves took a bit of a hit you take razorspam long fang lists and you are giving up First Blood most of the time, so just taking razorbacks and rhino's you are starting in the hole before the game even begins. Long Fangs are still good but against Daemons they are almost useless.

I consider your comment about broke, stupid, or unskilled to be incredibly insulting, and you really should take a long look at yourself for making judgements about people having never known them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:
Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save

Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece? so for 315 points you get a 9 man jump unit that has 2 wounds each, eternal warrior, a 5+ invuln, can deepstrike on turn one, can pump out 27 shots at 18", and can put out a flamer template that ignores armour and always wounds on a 4+ that is extremely expensive how can daemons afford that? A Primarch would die running into a unit of Flamers.

As for the screamers, I am not sure of their point costs, but again can be taken it a large group has 2 wounds, eternal warrior, a 5+ invuln, can skim 24" and drop buckets full of wounds as they fly over a unit, and can drop an inch from you. Why would they do that you ask? Because they have 3 base attacks at I4, Str5, AP2, and oh yea they have armourbane so unless you have anything that is I5 or higher they will lose. You might kill a few screamers but they will overkill you, an after that they will eat your vehicles.

They are broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.

Daemons have always been a solid competitive army, until GK's showed up and ruined them. Even before the WD update, you still had scary, evil lists like 'Fatecrusher' or 'Fatefiend' or 'Eppibombs' to deal with.
The army simply got a bad rap due to it's rather strange and unique deployment, and that its learning curve was slightly greater than even Dark Eldar!


As for how to deal with the new WD 'cheese' lists that spam 18-27 Flamers and Screamers? Bolters, bolters, and more bolters.

Never, ever, EVER! waste your S8+ shots on Flamers & Screamers because every single Daemon has the Eternal Warrior rule! Instead, threat those T4/5++ gribblies like you would any old ork... Basic guns and, (ironically), flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons and their ilk will shred those units. Even with the likes of Fateweaver's re-rolls, you'll still chew through those 5++ saves in no time.
Obviously, you don't want to ever assault Flamers unless there's only a couple of 'em left! Since SW's lack ready access to cost effective Storm Shield equiped units, you could instead turn in one of those Missilefang packs for a 'Bolterfang' pack. Swap out one or two of your Grey Hunter units' melta/plasma guns for a pair of Flamers. Daemons still have trouble opening up armour at range, especially on their first turn before we can assault!

Screamers can be delt with in assaults provided you have a unit with I5 or better. (IIRC, aren't Thunderwolves I5?!) If not, swap in some Power Lances on those guys who can take power toys, and some Storm Shields to soak-up the ap2 attacks.
And remember, Screamers are still a Tzeentchian unit, meaning they're WS is pitifull! They'll need 4's to hit you back, while you'll happily smash them in the face on a 3+. Plus, the unit has no way to issue Challenges outside of attatching an IC to the unit, so any of you own combat HQ's can go bonkers laying into the unit.

Don't have any I5+ units that are decent assaulters? Then treat Screamers like you would Flamers and shoot them up with masses of basic guns!


Using equally donkeycave moves like spaming Warp Quake is simply proving you're no better than the spamy jerk in the first place IMHO. Most Daemon players who've hung around this long with the army aren't the stupid gits running the newest, latest 'uber spam list.
Besides, it's far more satisfying to beat such TFG's with a balanced list and solid battleplan than to simply go for the quick-fix solution. If you do bring GK's and Warp Quake him, then next time he'll likely trade in a few of his Daemons for a min unit of Cultists and plasma-spaming Havocs/Chosen to try and alpha-strike you Knights.

Beat the dumb, spamy git with brains and he'll be at a complete loss as to how to counter you!

So what do you shoot at, the flamers, the screamers, or the Herald of Tzeench that has 5 wounds, 4+invuln, breath of chaos, and has a teleport homer to allow those nasty beasties from jumping down your throat. Bolters, Bolters, and more bolters are good for killing maybe the some of the screamers and some of the flamers or do you try to go all out to kill the chariot and then let the screamers and flamers eat you? I have a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry with a Wolf Lord and and I could not assualt those screamers.

valace2 wrote:
Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?

They're 23pts a piece, not 35...

Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.

 Nym wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?

They're 23pts a piece, not 35...

LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.

How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?

They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.

valace2 wrote:

 Nym wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?

They're 23pts a piece, not 35...

LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.

How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?

They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.

Gotta love the irony of a Grey Knights player complaining about Daemons. Booo hooo, booo hooo

Now you know how all of the other armies felt during 5th.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?

That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.

So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday

Are you the type that would play competitive chess and bribe the organizers to allow you to replace every piece as Queens?
and then believe you won with skills?

warhammer suffers unfortunate codex creep just so GW can sell extras to power gamers by making the new shinny units extra strong,
you are only fooling yourself if you think a game that is supposed to be fair, should be played your way...

I mean... its a game, why would you ever use real life comparison like the Armies where people's life are at stake to reason with?
That is desperation / WAAC is it not? for toy soldiers?...

Been playing demons for years. I've seen the rise and fall of many a "broken" army.

Wanna whaaa-burger with them French-cries?

Let demons have their heyday, as soon as gee dubs sells enough, they'll get re-nerfed.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Nym wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?

They're 23pts a piece, not 35...

LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.

How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?

They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.

Gotta love the irony of a Grey Knights player complaining about Daemons. Booo hooo, booo hooo

Now you know how all of the other armies felt during 5th.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Show me one unit in the Grey Knight codex that is as good as 9 flamers for 207 or 9 Screamers for 225. Go ahead I dare ya. An Grey Knights were hardly as OP in 5th as Daemons are now. I also run Tau, they haven't received so much as a crumb or new unit from GW in years show me how they beat Daemons. Again I dare you. An I never ran the Purifier/Psyfledread spam lists that were the rave of the internet, I ran Storm Ravens, Vindicare Assassins, and the occasional Dreadknight, because my local scene doesn't live or die by the netlist.

This isn't codex creep its insanity. Imagine a unit of Paladins with eternal warrior. Or Nob Bikers or Thunderwolf Cavalry. The fact that all of these daemons have 2 wounds and eternal warrior is laughable. I scored a direct hit on a unit of Flamers from a frikin Vindicator and only managed to kill 2 of them. If thats not OP I don't know what is. Hell at best if I had wounded each one and they failed each save there would be 5 frickin Flamers still standing.

An I could still build a Grey Knight army that would beat daemons everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. It wouldn't be competitive against other armies but it would kill the hell out of daemons, psilencers on mass Strike and Interceptor squads. If I had the first turn the game would be over. Hell I would run a Dreadknight with the heavy psilencer if I knew for a fact I was playing daemons. You better believe any list I cook up from now on for tournaments will include at least some Grey Knights.

people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.

As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all

Okee Doke

Waaahhhh Tau are OP! They're Rail Guns are imstoppable! Dey keep one shotting my monos and my QS vehicles!
I call chesse!

Good enough?

 juraigamer wrote:
Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.

As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.

ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all

Okee Doke

Waaahhhh Tau are OP! They're Rail Guns are imstoppable! Dey keep one shotting my monos and my QS vehicles!
I call chesse!

Good enough?

cloes enough dont forget those vespids. broken I tell you. BROKEN

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?

Lets see 9 bolt pistols and maybe a plasma or melta gun. Out of the 9 Bolt pistols lets say 6 hit, then we will go high an say 4 of those wound, so you have 4 wounds, the flamers make 1 save so we have a dead flamer an one with a wound on it, so tack in the melta or plasma hit an wound, and you still have 7 flamers left, odds are good you will get at least 2 shots from each flamer, thats 14 hits say 7 wounds after that so you have 3 assault marines attacking those 7 flamers. You could always add in another unit's round of bolter fire, but they are prolly already dead from the flamers initial attack. Thats if the screamers didn't already soften up that assault squad before they could do the charge of the light brigade against the Flamer Wall of Death.

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.

As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.

ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all

Okee Doke

Waaahhhh Tau are OP! They're Rail Guns are imstoppable! Dey keep one shotting my monos and my QS vehicles!
I call chesse!

Good enough?

cloes enough dont forget those vespids. broken I tell you. BROKEN

I no right? And dose ethereals are just redikuluss, with that dammed BS4 honor gard using dem S5 rifles! Not fair I telz ya!

....

I have no idea what I just typed

DPBellathrom wrote:
ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really loved tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around

I played in a 2250pt tournament yesterday and was tabled at the end of turn 2 in the 1st round. I will never voluntarily play an army like that. If I come across it in a tournament that's that, but I won't be going to tournaments without some Grey Knight allies, and I won't play a Tzeentch army for fun. It wasn't it really wasn't. A friend of mine who is a damn good player ran a pretty strong Blood Angel list and he was tabled the same way at the end of turn 2 in the 2nd round.

valace2 wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?

Lets see 9 bolt pistols and maybe a plasma or melta gun. Out of the 9 Bolt pistols lets say 6 hit, then we will go high an say 4 of those wound, so you have 4 wounds, the flamers make 1 save so we have a dead flamer an one with a wound on it, so tack in the melta or plasma hit an wound, and you still have 7 flamers left, odds are good you will get at least 2 shots from each flamer, thats 14 hits say 7 wounds after that so you have 3 assault marines attacking those 7 flamers. You could always add in another round of bolter fire, but they are prolly already dead from the flamers initial attack. Thats if the screamers didn't already soften up that assault squad before they could do the charge of the light brigade against the Flamer Wall of Death.

a vindi didnt work due to some bad luck....well damn. I agree this army is clearly broken.

I will still echo using some GK allies for warp quake so they wont dare get close to you meaning you can pick them off at range. when there's only a few left feel free to blits in with a ten man unit. not to mention you have your banks of ML devs to throw plenty of templates towards them

GKs only work if you are going first. What happens when, 50% of the time, youre going second?

If you play tzeentch demons, and only tzeentch demons, and don't spam flamers and screamers, you don't exist.

It's as simple as that. I refuse to play a match that just wastes my time. I play games for fun, not to get schooled with no chance of winning.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
GKs only work if you are going first. What happens when, 50% of the time, youre going second?

You can still throw up a Warp Quake bubble to prevent the rest of their forces coming in.