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I think we have interepeted the hive mind a bit differently enoo.

Eather if the hive mind is a singel entety that controls the tyranids or it is a consiusnes made out of the tyranids, in my opinion, the tyranids act as his avatar. All of them combines. But that is what you get when you meet an alien entety.

If you where going up 1 vs 1 against the hive mind you would be fighting all the tyranids in the galaxy and the once that are innbound. Good luck Mephiston or what-not.

 enooNaMI wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 enooNaMI wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 Garvy wrote:
Draigo are Mary Sues and a real wusses compared to any serios power in 40k (deamon and living primarch

Yes I agree that it's over the top, but in the (albeit bad) fluff that we have for Draigo right now, he beats down Daemon Primarch Mortarion.

Mortarion was probably tired from killing Draigo's predecessor, the Supreme Grand Master Geronitan. Sure, he's a Daemon Primarch, but the Daemons can only use so much energy while manifesting in physical space. The amount of energy necessary to beat a Grey Knight, and the Supreme Grand Master at that, must have been exhaustive as Grey Knights are tailor made to beat down Daemons and were probably designed by the Emperor to counter the Daemon Primarchs specifically as the Loyalist Primarchs are either dead, wounded, or trolling across the universe.

He must have been pretty tired if him at full strength makes his defeater look like a real wuss.

As you yourself said, the fluff surrounding Draigo is pretty bad. Logically, no fighter is truly at a hundred percent right after a battle. Even more so if he/she was fighting an opponent tailor made to beat him down. Mortarion just killed a Supreme Grand Master (wow I've said this more than 5 times throughout this hijacked thread I'm using to boost my post count), the best of the Grey Knights armed with stuff dipped in awesome sauce (if you believe their fluff). Grey Knights were made to specifically combat the agents of Chaos who have battery packs that last as much as a gaming laptop does unplugged.

So, do I think Mortarion and his retinue weren't at their best when Draigo assailed them? Yes, I believe so because its logical in terms of the current fluff.

Do I think Mortarion could have won against Draigo considering the circumstances? Yes, agents of Nurgle have FnP which, though nerfed this 6th Ed, is still awesome. He probably forgot to roll this...

I wouldn't call it hijacked, we're debating the validity of Draigo filling the roll as best fighter. I still think that Mortarion probably should have destroyed Draigo even after fighting the Grand Master, especially considering that Draigo was younger and less experienced at the time. Off topic, I wouldn't say that FNP has been nerfed in 6th, yes the roll is lower but at least you get it pretty much all of the time now.

@Rampage
Quoting you will just make the post longer.
I think what happened was like Pokemon situations where you manage to beat a Pokemon you're weak to and then find out there's another one like it at full health and you don't have recovery items.

 enooNaMI wrote:
@Rampage
Quoting you will just make the post longer.
I think what happened was like Pokemon situations where you manage to beat a Pokemon you're weak to and then find out there's another one like it at full health and you don't have recovery items.

Yeah, I think this one is safe to quote. I think that it all comes down to how weak the GK Grand Master made Mortarion. I just find it hard to believe that he made him so weak that Draigo could beat him down. Although, bad fluff.

 Rampage wrote:

 enooNaMI wrote:
@Rampage
Quoting you will just make the post longer.
I think what happened was like Pokemon situations where you manage to beat a Pokemon you're weak to and then find out there's another one like it at full health and you don't have recovery items.

Yeah, I think this one is safe to quote. I think that it all comes down to how weak the GK Grand Master made Mortarion. I just find it hard to believe that he made him so weak that Draigo could beat him down. Although, bad fluff.

Since we have to consider amount of damage inflicted by the GK SGM and the amount of energy it took for Mortarion to bring him down compared to the power limit Daemons have in the physical realm, we can logically deduce that Mortarion was probably at 30-40%. I'm really irked by the fluff surrounding this. Draigo is so stupid to have wasted time doodling on a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle's heart. Tear it off and Mortarion wouldn't be back for a thousand years. Angry Marines would have stomped Mortarion to bits with Power Feet.

Angron! Blood for the Blood... Chalice?

 Niiai wrote:
I highly doubt that the Ork god would be stronger then Khorn the god of war and killing unending.

They are. Think of it this way. Khorn hits Gork, Gork starts to laugh. thats what would happen. Gork hits Khorne, Khrone armor is bent. just a tiny scratch. They keep doing this. In the end Gork is kinda hurt, Khorn is badly hurt. Khorne is a big god but compared to Gork he isnt close. Would I like to see the fight. Absoulutly Cant even spell it! but I cant I really wish I could

Where is the sorcer material backing this up abaut the Ork gods?

From what I've read, it's more Khorne hits Gork/Mork, and slightly damages his armour, Gork/Mork Laughs then hits Khorne, same amount of damage, but instead of laughing,
Khorne gets angry.

It's not strength, but how they take hits. Gork/Mork don't give a feth, Khorne does.

You are just making this up.

 Niiai wrote:
Where is the sorcer material backing this up abaut the Ork gods?

Ork codex, Pg 15

Box entitled 'the ork gods'

Is it largely orks that believe their god is the best? I understand that they are hard to break but maybe not hard to defeat. I heard something about all emotion fueling the chaos gods and not just human, for instance, the birth of the purple one and it's constant attempt to feed on as many eldar as possible.

I'd assume all the rage you can get out of an ork is sorta interesting to say, a blood god?

Quote says they are divine powerhouses that can never be truly defeated IIRC They laugh off the attacks of other gods.

Orks fuel the Ork Gods.

I'm sure eldar also fueled their gods but they're still the source of at least one of the chaos gods and have to be utterly devoted to safeguarding themselves from feeding them. I'm pretty sure chaos isn't just limited to umies.

I'm going to have to read up more on gork and mork because all I've heard so far is that orks believe they can't ever be truly defeated and always come back raring for a fight, they also don't seem to take too much of an agenda upon themselves except in terms of giving ghazkull hints.


On another note I realized how Draigo killed Mortarion! In 6th Princes lost their Eternal Warrior! He must have just gotten a wound through with his force sword! If Mortarion had known about this BS I'm sure he would have stayed a primarch and skipped all this prince business.

The Eldar gods were explicitly starved during the time of the Fall, all the energy that normally powered them was powering the incubating Slaanesh.

On the topic of Draigo...

Lol. Draigo was physically present when the SGM was killed, and had been fighting in the battle. The whole "Mortarion was tired D: " argument (That relies on an assumption not present in the text) applies to Draigo as well as Mortarion, and frankly, I will not assume he was barely clinging to the materium when nowhere does the text indicate this was the case.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Draigo's fluff is good. It's bad. He gallavants throughout the Warp ragehulking his way through armies of Chaos singlehandedly, and no amount of GK shenanigans could compensate for the sheer skill his feats require.

He's the best fighter, bar none, when speaking of mortals. Sad as it is to say that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Draigo's fluff is good. It's bad. He gallavants throughout the Warp ragehulking his way through armies of Chaos singlehandedly, and no amount of GK shenanigans could compensate for the sheer skill his feats require.

It's good to me...I don't know about the 5th Edition Necrons, but I like his portrayal of Space Marines in general, and the Grey Knights and the Ultramarines in particular

Interesting.

What do you like about Draigo, specifically?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Interesting.

What do you like about Draigo, specifically?

Nothing in particular, but to me Draigo, Calgar, and the Grey Knight/Ultramarines SCs symbolize that the promise of the Great Crusade isn't fully lost, and the Imperium still has hope against its enemies: whether the darkness of Chaos, the endless xenos hordes, or even the Imperium's own crumbling edifice.

Calgar I can get, I don't think he truly fails as a character nor is he infallible (Swarmlord lol), but Draigo? He stretches my willing suspension of disbelief in a setting that by its very nature should rupture it. This is compounded by the fact that he honestly has nothing even vaguely resembling personal characteristics (While he is hampered by only appearing in a single codex, at least most characters have something detailing or implying something about them to make them personally unique, Draigo is just a Grey Knight that happens to be powerful enough to gallavant through the Warp like one of those dudes in Awesome Reach).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Calgar I can get, I don't think he truly fails as a character nor is he infallible (Swarmlord lol), but Draigo? He stretches my willing suspension of disbelief in a setting that by its very nature should rupture it. This is compounded by the fact that he honestly has nothing even vaguely resembling personal characteristics (While he is hampered by only appearing in a single codex, at least most characters have something detailing or implying something about them to make them personally unique, Draigo is just a Grey Knight that happens to be powerful enough to gallavant through the Warp like one of those dudes in Awesome Reach).

He cannot leave the Warp though, not until the end.

See, herein lies the truth of the matter: He is much more effective at doing his job (Fighting Daemons) while there, than he ever was in the materium.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
See, herein lies the truth of the matter: He is much more effective at doing his job (Fighting Daemons) while there, than he ever was in the materium.

Which is, of course, the whole point

Ok so I've just gone through 5 pages of this, and I've seen Yarrick mentioned more times than I care to think about, and Sanguinor mentioned only once, that guy put away Ka'Bandha, that's the same guy that Sanguinor himself, struggled against. You're not getting a better fighter than that /thread

Wasn't Sigismund a badass in the Heresy days? I think even Kharn feared his skill.

MadMuzza wrote:
Wasn't Sigismund a badass in the Heresy days? I think even Kharn feared his skill.

I believe he and Kharn were sparring partners pre-heresy

Eldercaveman wrote:
Ok so I've just gone through 5 pages of this, and I've seen Yarrick mentioned more times than I care to think about...

Well speaking personally, as I'm one of the main defendants, it seems, of Yarrick as a candidate, an outside chance, a longshot in a pitch black night with an unloaded rifle whilst standing in a bucket of cod chance, he wasn't actually my choice (in fact I haven't actually put down who mine is - I just fought the corner for a human character). In fact I don't have a real choice of who is the best, best, best of the absolute best, no returns etc, etc. Too many to choose from with different strengths & backgrounds.

 Lucre wrote:
I'm sure eldar also fueled their gods but they're still the source of at least one of the chaos gods and have to be utterly devoted to safeguarding themselves from feeding them. I'm pretty sure chaos isn't just limited to umies.

I'm going to have to read up more on gork and mork because all I've heard so far is that orks believe they can't ever be truly defeated and always come back raring for a fight, they also don't seem to take too much of an agenda upon themselves except in terms of giving ghazkull hints.


On another note I realized how Draigo killed Mortarion! In 6th Princes lost their Eternal Warrior! He must have just gotten a wound through with his force sword! If Mortarion had known about this BS I'm sure he would have stayed a primarch and skipped all this prince business.

If the orks strengthened a chaos god, it would not be khorne it would be slaanesh. Orks rarely fight in rage or anger. They fight cause it is fun. Khorne is god of war in name. Just because the orks go to war alot doesnt mean that khorne gets fat off of them. Orks are known to get fat off of their riches, once again slaanesh. There favorite fun time is fighting, which thhey do alot. Orks indulge themselves in what they like to do the most wich is fighting.

If the chaos fed off the orks as much as they fed off humans then probably Slaanesh would be strongest. The race that uses hate the most when they are fighting is of course humans. Besides I really doubt that Gork and Mork would let the chaos gods feed off of therre followers.

Bloodthirster
Avatar
Daemon Prince Angron (and only the DP version)

If you're not WS10, you're not under consideration.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
See, herein lies the truth of the matter: He is much more effective at doing his job (Fighting Daemons) while there, than he ever was in the materium.

Well, as I understand it when you kill a Daemon in the Materium, you banish it back to the Warp, and it is stuck there for an indeterminate amount of time.

If you kill a Daemon while in the Warp, I don't believe there are any penalties? It just re-spawns almost instantly? So no, I wouldn't say he's much more effective while in there.

Also, if some random chump Captain of the Grey Knights can take down Angron, by himself, in hand to hand combat, I have no trouble believing Draigo can drop Mortarion, hack the heart from his lifeless body and desecrate it as some kind of lasting insult to the Daemon.

And the whole 'stuck in the Warp' thing only works if we assume the Chaos Gods have molded the Warp to suit him. It only works if we assume they want him to be there. The Warp after all, is not like the Materium. It has no gravity, no air, no cause and effect, no physics. No reality. If Draigo were in the Warp and willed his arm to move, he's just as likely to explode into a ball of glitter as he is to actually move his arm. The only way there could be a 'ground' for him to walk on, and 'air' for him to move through, the only way there could be an 'up' and a 'down' and so on and so forth, is if the Chaos Gods built it for him that way.

And think about it from their timeless, infinite perspective. Crushing an annoying insect who wandered into their home is easy, but the fun is over instantly. How much more fun to make him run through a maze, over and over, repeating the same tasks, over and over, to see how long it takes this 'incorruptible' man to become corrupt? One century? Two? Ten? Twenty? Two hundred? The only thing that is certain is that even the most steadfast of Grey Knights could only take that punishment for so long.

Besides, the whole thing is hardly unprecedented. Remember the squad of Blood Angels trekking across a Daemon planet in Warhammer Monthly? I'll be the first to admit that a Daemon planet is not the same as the Warp Proper, but it does set an example.

 Garvy wrote:
Twilight fanboys will go for Mephiston and Dante
Werewolves fans will go with Logan and Arjac
Ward -fanboys will go with Smurfgar and Draigo
Is there a being in the whole damn universe who can best Mary Sue ?

One word - Yriel

Elves are lame.

Anyway, choosing Draigo isn't so much a case of fanboyism (I'm pretty sure most people mentioning him so far loathe Ward's attempts at composition), but just the examples of feats we are given. The dude beats up ephemeral manifestations of war and battle incarnate with his bare hands on their home turf.

Skarbrand, I mean come on, he dented Khorne's armour, got thrown for 8 days, killed millions whilst flying through the air, when he finally landed, he survived, then he continues to lay worlds to waste.

Either him or

Old One Eye. That guy is brutal.