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 Agamemnon2 wrote:
This attitude of self-loathing among self-professed hobbyists of GW games is quite, quite strange. Why do you have such low expectations of your peers?

Experience? Yes, it's anecdotal but trends happen and people notice them.

The "regulars" seldom buy stuff because they usually have all the stuff they need. Some of those regulars make token purchases but tend to buy from discounters where possible (I'm guilty of this one). With few exceptions, groups of regulars tend to be insular and cold to new people who want to sit with them, chat, or whatever. Fortunately, you tend to find this attitude more in roleplayers than miniature gamers. I know stores who won't ever turn over table space to a RPG group because they never buy anything and they take up space that could be used by people who do.

I hang out at the Seattle Battle Bunker because the management and staff make a deliberate effort to maintain an open, social environment in the store and keep cliquish behavior to a minimum.

silent25 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Nah GW just spends all of its money on flying all of its managers to memphis and put them in a hotel for a few days every 3 months. I know for a fact they dont stay in dumpy hotels, so unless there is a massive discount you're looking at $500+ a person depending on where they are coming from. If there is 50 people thats $100,000/year. Even if its $50,000, thats money all the people that play this game are paying for whether you go to their stores or not, and how with no gaming tables on the horizon, why in the blue hell am I paying for a bunch of guys to sit around painting models and playing word games to best sell stuff to people?

Don't forget a generous health care package also. We don't care about the well being of other people, so why should they. How dare they get health care when the rest of people working in the world of retail don't.

Dont be daft.

There is a major difference between health care and flying its managers from every corner of north america for a business meeting to run stores that are driving towards no longer welcome gaming

@Ravenous D

We get it dude, you hate GW. They probably did unwholesome things to a pet of yours.

GW basic stores are not gaming stores. They are for recruiting and entry level. As such, a single table is really all they should have along with a paint station.

Let's face it, a fair amount of the people in our hobby who would hang out at a GW store aren't people you'd generally want putting a face on the hobby. Enough space to run a demo game or a mega battle and the abiilty to paint is all they need. This keeps people from just lounging around the shop and generally not making purchases and allows the employee/manager to focus on the business.

And you really don't need a GW store for networking anymore. The internet is your friend.

Seriously? You white knights are the worst. I swear I could sell you a rock if I told you it was magical.

What part about having a "warhammer only" store with no foot traffic sounds like a good business idea to you?

Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

You are basing that entire business perspective in your won personal experience and saying it like it is a fact or the norm... It isn't, I've been playing wargames since 96 and almost all of my games have been played in either a FLGS or a Tournament venue.

My entire gaming group of over 40 people are like that as well. We never play at each other's houses, I dare say that if we didn't have a FLGS to play, then very few of us would continue in the hobby to this day (if we would had even started in the first place).

The business perspective isn't in my own personal experience. It's in working for GW and several other retailers as a store manager over a decade and a half before leaving retail for good two years ago. Dealing with regional numbers and being responsible for driving sales. It's seeing it in action and rolled out across national chains.

GW stores in the US, outside of bunkers, have never provided the gaming space that most FLGS's will try to provide. Originally this was part of their effort to work with independents. They sent developing gamers to the FLGS. The FLGS is suppose to be the gaming location. For touranments and general gaming. I'm pretty sure I noted that a FLGS is still a location to play and that GW's aren't FLGS's.

A local FLGS owner can charge for gaming tables or put rules into effect that would have people screaming to the high heavens if GW did it. People feel more beholden and tend to purchase from a FLGS to use their tables since it's not a coporate monster. FLGS's can use those tables for multiple things to generate revenue where as a GW generates almost no revenue by having regulars hangout and play once in a while.

You can say it's personal experience but since we're talking about the US and a store that is local to where I used to live and dealing with a business model I'm incredibly familiar with through multiple avenues I'd have to disagree.

almostreal wrote:
Seems like a solid business move. If something isn't making money, you close it. The retail area of a bunker is no bigger then a one man store...but it has to support a huge gaming area. People playing games doesn't = them buying things.

GW stores aren't the only place to play or even buy their product, it looks like to me that GW is making some big and tough decisions to try to be/remain profitable.

I know the 20 pages following this will be "Yup, GW is dying...I told you that my venom would work...hate hate hate". Ultimately it's a company making decisions to be profitable, they are opening many more stores then they are closing/downsizing.

Flame away GW haters..lol

True enough. I've never been a fan of the way GW does business in many instances. Although I've only recently come back to playing GW games in the last 4 years or so, I've been playing their games and buying their products off and on since the late 80's. That being said, I and no one else I've heard from in the SoCal area knows of any increase in the number of GW stores now or in the near future. In fact, the overall number has decreased.

While this shrinking of the larger stores may in fact be a successful money saver on their part in the short term, it will cost them more then just walk in customers. It will also cost them the new younger demographic (teenagers) that saw the Bunker as a gaming place accessible and welcoming to them. And to say that they are not a good source of business is just plain wrong. While it was common knowledge that dealing with some of the youngest players was sometimes taxing the to employees, the kids parents dropped a lot of money in the store in order to fund their kids hobby and give them somewhere to play. Admitted;y though, I'm no expert on how well the GW store in question is doing, much less GW in general. Maybe my experience and perceptions are all based on anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me that overall, GW will lose more by downsizing these stores and the 'services' they provide than they will gain in short term money savings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The one upside to no longer playing at a GW store is that I and others are no longer limited to using only GW figures. I honored that 'policy' when playing at the LA Battle Bunker, but always chaffed at it a bit. I really like their game systems and most of their figures, but having the freedom to mix and match and just plain use other companies figures in some cases is very liberating. Now I just have to find somewhere to play!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

I think most if not all of your points, while fully entitled are off the mark to one degree or another.

1) You are right that some do indeed 'whine' about this or that, including the price of GW products, but that does not mean that no criticism is acceptable or warranted sometimes. Sometimes it takes more than simply not buying a companies product in order to be heard and for change to possibly happen.

2) Your assessment that the majority of people(guys) that frequent the Bunker are basically eye sores and hinder the likelihood that 'regular' people will want to enter is simply wrong. You're right there are of course always a few that are basically the least 'appealing' poster persons for promoting a 'cool' atmosphere, but I'd contend that the vast majority of those that frequent the Bunker look exactly like the guys that you'd find at the vast majority of sports bars on any Saturday or Sunday. The ONLY thing that makes them seem any 'cooler' is the fact that they are doing something (passive as it may be) that is far more popular and socially acceptable, namely watching sports and drinking beer while doing so. And of course there are more girls there, but most of them are no more appealing than the guys that dragged most of them there. The majority are overweight, past their prime guys that vary from slightly to very loud and or obnoxious. If it wasn't for the alcohol, you think most of them would be there? I think not. That's not a put down of sports bars or the people (including me) that frequent them. It's just an attempt at putting things in perspective.

3) Of course a GW store does not need to be a place to play nor should it be expected to be, and neither should any other gaming store for that matter. Those businesses do that though for the same reason the GW store did it. To promote the idea that the store in question was THE place to go to get your gaming products and improve/heighten your gaming experience. Developing a gaming 'community' built around your store only helps business in the vast majority of cases. The degree to which it does of course varies from store to store. The only real exception is when the co$t of setting aside that space begins to adversely impact their ability to make the kind of profit they want. The in-store gaming could be taking up too much space otherwise set aside for product display or maybe the group that games there has become a deterrence to new and repeat customers returning. That is up to the store to handle though.

Maybe the Bunkers problem was that it simply cost too much to rent the space. It's very possible, but I don't think it takes an accountant or business major to see that the total money they bring in in sales after the downsizing will be A LOT less and any growth in the future will be negligible. Maybe it's best for the company, but it certainly didn't do anything for the local gaming community.

My earlier, formative gaming experience was much the same as yours. As for you or anyone else already having a circle of fellow players to draw from now in your later years. Bully for you. That wasn't my situation being that I had been out of the hobby for a number of years and I guarantee it isn't the case for lots of other new players to the area or the hobby in general. A place like the Bunker has been a gathering place for people of a variety of GW gaming interests that for most people would not otherwise be available or possible. Again, if the change is good for GW, great for them. It may even be good for a number of the non-GW game stores and that is indeed very good too. They deserve as much or more support, assuming they're doing their job well. For the SoCal gaming community as a whole though, I fear it is at best a zero sum gain and at worst it is clearly a loss.

Am I 'mad' a GW? No. Disappointed? definitely.

 Breotan wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
This attitude of self-loathing among self-professed hobbyists of GW games is quite, quite strange. Why do you have such low expectations of your peers?

Experience? Yes, it's anecdotal but trends happen and people notice them.

The "regulars" seldom buy stuff because they usually have all the stuff they need. Some of those regulars make token purchases but tend to buy from discounters where possible (I'm guilty of this one). With few exceptions, groups of regulars tend to be insular and cold to new people who want to sit with them, chat, or whatever. Fortunately, you tend to find this attitude more in roleplayers than miniature gamers. I know stores who won't ever turn over table space to a RPG group because they never buy anything and they take up space that could be used by people who do.

I hang out at the Seattle Battle Bunker because the management and staff make a deliberate effort to maintain an open, social environment in the store and keep cliquish behavior to a minimum.

Yah, the Seattle Bunker is awesome. I hope that the new manager won't change the feel of the place.

On a side note, I do like how we both go to the Seattle Bunker, yet I don't think we have ever met each other.

Spartan67 wrote:
I think most if not all of your points, while fully entitled are off the mark to one degree or another.

1) You are right that some do indeed 'whine' about this or that, including the price of GW products, but that does not mean that no criticism is acceptable or warranted sometimes. Sometimes it takes more than simply not buying a companies product in order to be heard and for change to possibly happen.

2) Your assessment that the majority of people(guys) that frequent the Bunker are basically eye sores and hinder the likelihood that 'regular' people will want to enter is simply wrong. You're right there are of course always a few that are basically the least 'appealing' poster persons for promoting a 'cool' atmosphere, but I'd contend that the vast majority of those that frequent the Bunker look exactly like the guys that you'd find at the vast majority of sports bars on any Saturday or Sunday. The ONLY thing that makes them seem any 'cooler' is the fact that they are doing something (passive as it may be) that is far more popular and socially acceptable, namely watching sports and drinking beer while doing so. And of course there are more girls there, but most of them are no more appealing than the guys that dragged most of them there. The majority are overweight, past their prime guys that vary from slightly to very loud and or obnoxious. If it wasn't for the alcohol, you think most of them would be there? I think not. That's not a put down of sports bars or the people (including me) that frequent them. It's just an attempt at putting things in perspective.

3) Of course a GW store does not need to be a place to play nor should it be expected to be, and neither should any other gaming store for that matter. Those businesses do that though for the same reason the GW store did it. To promote the idea that the store in question was THE place to go to get your gaming products and improve/heighten your gaming experience. Developing a gaming 'community' built around your store only helps business in the vast majority of cases. The degree to which it does of course varies from store to store. The only real exception is when the co$t of setting aside that space begins to adversely impact their ability to make the kind of profit they want. The in-store gaming could be taking up too much space otherwise set aside for product display or maybe the group that games there has become a deterrence to new and repeat customers returning. That is up to the store to handle though.

Maybe the Bunkers problem was that it simply cost too much to rent the space. It's very possible, but I don't think it takes an accountant or business major to see that the total money they bring in in sales after the downsizing will be A LOT less and any growth in the future will be negligible. Maybe it's best for the company, but it certainly didn't do anything for the local gaming community.

My earlier, formative gaming experience was much the same as yours. As for you or anyone else already having a circle of fellow players to draw from now in your later years. Bully for you. That wasn't my situation being that I had been out of the hobby for a number of years and I guarantee it isn't the case for lots of other new players to the area or the hobby in general. A place like the Bunker has been a gathering place for people of a variety of GW gaming interests that for most people would not otherwise be available or possible. Again, if the change is good for GW, great for them. It may even be good for a number of the non-GW game stores and that is indeed very good too. They deserve as much or more support, assuming they're doing their job well. For the SoCal gaming community as a whole though, I fear it is at best a zero sum gain and at worst it is clearly a loss.

Am I 'mad' a GW? No. Disappointed? definitely.

1) Having the same people poo poo every single thing GW does isn't going to make them take notice. Your wallet is your best bet but let's be honest, people complaining on this site aren't looking for improvement. They are looking to complain. Why? Because most reasonable people know that GW isn't going to read these boards and change their minds about their business plans. Again, why? Because it hasn't happened yet and the same complaints (regarding price and how GW treats it's customers) have been circulating for almost a decade now.

2) No, it's not wrong. Every, single time I went into the Los Angeles Bunker at least 30% were of the variety I stated. That's on the bunker side. The number was higher on the store side. When I ran a GW the majority of the people that would hang out for more more than 20 minutes at the store simply didn't have any place else to go or people to hang out with. It's personal experience from running a GW store and having been into a number of these stores over the years.

3) Covered this a few times. Not going to cover it again.

As for my personal gaming experience I moved to a state recently (approximately 2 years ago) that doesn't have a GW. I didn't know a single person who was involved in the hobby in this state. Guess what I did? I went online, I found local stores and local game groups. I signed up on local forums as well as looking for game sections of larger forums. And now I play in regular events and have a large pool of possible people to play against. Just like in SoCal there is a large and thriving gaming community. And much like SoCal it's actually not in GW stores. If people want to find a game in Orange/LA/Ventura/Riverside Counties there are places to play. A buddy of mine from Minnesota spent the summer in Santa Barbara. He didn't know a single person when he headed out there but he played in tournaments almost every weekend for 7 straight weeks. He found opponents. The point is that GW's aren't a be all, end all of getting together to game. Especially not in the area the bunker is in. I'm pretty sure it's the same in Chicago. Seattle has a thriving gaming scene without the bunker there. And the Baltimore location that shut down is now a new FLGS run by the previous GW bunker manager.

I'll let someone else do the math but still having a recruitment store, the price they charge stockists for their products, massively lowering their overhead, and social media means that it's a smart move for GW.