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Allow me to recommend that all parties heretofore involved in the debate take a break from this thread. Thanks.

Edited by Manchu

Again, if he is wounded and passes the test, a ghost knight appears "and joins Mordrak's unit". So if Mordrak is purchased alone, wounded, and passes the test, Mordrak's unit now consists of 2 models thus he is eligible to be joined even if alone.

And just like the SR/dread thread, the OP has been answered and we're several pages deep in tangential circular discussion.

 Happyjew wrote:
. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit.

This is not true, as Mordrak always has a chance to be joined by a ghost knight, even if he did not purchase them, meaning he is never a single model unit.

 puma713 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit.

This is not true, as Mordrak always has a chance to be joined by a ghost knight, even if he did not purchase them, meaning he is never a single model unit.

Which I do agree with. I was just pointing out that there are, by definition, 2 units there.

Actually, what is really confusing is this:

Q: Are both Grand Master Mordrak and the Ghost Knights each
worth a Kill Point? (p40)
A: No, upgrade characters do not give additional Kill Points.

I'm in awe. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've seen people arguing the same side of question, especially over a point that doesn't even matter as both sides that are arguing agree on the only point that does matter. Just, simply, wow.

The upside is, the tactic described by the OP is only legal if the Librarian had Summoned only a single unit of TDA, with the remaining two arriving via deep strike. The tactic is also legal if the Librarian Summons no units of TDA, with all three arriving via deep strike. The only time the tactic is illegal is if all four units were on the table at the start of turn 2 and the Librarian Summoned the GKT and Paladins unit during the same player turn. Which was stated quite a few pages ago.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm in awe. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've seen people arguing the same side of question, especially over a point that doesn't even matter as both sides that are arguing agree on the only point that does matter. Just, simply, wow.

The upside is, the tactic described by the OP is only legal if the Librarian had Summoned only a single unit of TDA, with the remaining two arriving via deep strike. The tactic is also legal if the Librarian Summons no units of TDA, with all three arriving via deep strike. The only time the tactic is illegal is if all four units were on the table at the start of turn 2 and the Librarian Summoned the GKT and Paladins unit during the same player turn. Which was stated quite a few pages ago.

SJ

Looking back I missed when the "Mordrak takes a wound he gets a free Ghost Knight" thing came up. I'm curious though, does unit composition and options matter in regards to whether or not a unit always consists of a single model?

 Happyjew wrote:
Looking back I missed when the "Mordrak takes a wound he gets a free Ghost Knight" thing came up. I'm curious though, does unit composition and options matter in regards to whether or not a unit always consists of a single model?

Sort of. Unit composition and options only matter as long as the context you are looking for can be found. In the case of Grand Master Mordrak, he is only a single-model unit when Ghost Knights are not present, which means he is never a unit consisting of only a single model since he can spawn Ghost Knights that automatically join him to form a unit consisting of more than one model. He also has the option to purchase additional Ghost Knights, to which he counts as an upgrade character. Since the context we are looking for to allow an Independent Character to join Grand Master Mordrak can be found in both his special rules and his army list entry, we can safely say that Grand Master Mordrak is eligable to be joined by Independent Characters. If, however, Grand Master Mordrak lacked the Ghostly Bodyguard special rule, his unit would indeed consist of a single model that could only ever be a single model unit, at which point no IC could join him per the Independent Character special rules. Thankfully, Mordrak has his bodyguard special rule.

SJ

Jeffersonian - it wasnt arguing the same side, just pointing out that you have to work out each Units "more than one" ness - and one person was trying to claim there is only one unit there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - it wasnt arguing the same side, just pointing out that you have to work out each Units "more than one" ness - and one person was trying to claim there is only one unit there.

Well that is a strange situation because the rules say that mordrak and the Ghost Knights form A unit. (So I can see how it is one unit if Mordrak and his ghost knights are on the table).

It is a weird situation because Mordrak reverts to being a unit after the rest of his unit is dead.

"Mordrak and the ghost knights form A unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right." P. 40 GK Codex.

DR - youre misunderstanding what I was saying. There are two possible Units - Mordrak, bought alone, or Mordrak as an upgrade to bought Ghost Knights. One is Mordraks unit, the orhter is a unit of Ghost Knights.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - youre misunderstanding what I was saying. There are two possible Units - Mordrak, bought alone, or Mordrak as an upgrade to bought Ghost Knights. One is Mordraks unit, the orhter is a unit of Ghost Knights.

I disagree. Grand Master Mordrak bought alone is still an upgrade character even when alone, as he can spawn Ghost Knights which immediately joins him. And even though you can buy Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights as a single unit, Mordrak can still spawn additional Ghost Knights, leaving you still with the one unit: Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. Also, no matter how many Ghost Knights Mordrak starts with or spawns, when Mordrak dies all the Ghost Knights go away. Which pretty much means that there is only ever one unit related to Mordrak, and that unit is "Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights" That one unit is composed of 1 Grand Master Mordrak model, up to 3 spawned Ghost Knight models at no additional cost (other than unsaved wounds), and 0-5 additional Ghost Knights at same cost as regular GKT.

So, no, I don't see the 2 units named Mordrak you are referring to.

SJ

They immediately join Mordraks UNIT. As in, the unit called "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you have him solo, and spawn knights, they join HIM, he doesnt join them.

There is a seperate unit called "Ghost Knights", which if you purchae them Mordrak becomes an upgrade character for.

So there are two possible units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They immediately join Mordraks UNIT. As in, the unit called "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you have him solo, and spawn knights, they join HIM, he doesnt join them.

There is a seperate unit called "Ghost Knights", which if you purchae them Mordrak becomes an upgrade character for.

So there are two possible units.

Oh? Cool! Show me where you can purchase just the Ghost Knights on their own. According to you, Ghost Knights are a unit on their own, right?

SJ

Nope, wrong again

Buy Mordrak. Buy Ghost Knights. Read the rules which states he is an upgrade character for them. Making the unit name "Ghost Knights".

Your made up "GMM and Ghost Knights" unit name is just that - made up.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oh? Cool! Show me where you can purchase just the Ghost Knights on their own. According to you, Ghost Knights are a unit on their own, right?

That's not what he said at all.
Page 40, C:GK

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights.

First sentence of the "Ghostly Bodyguard" rule. This says that the unit (if purchased) is called Ghost Knights which Mordrak is an upgrade character for.

Place a new Ghost Knight within coherency of Mordrak's unit - it joins Mordrak's unit to all intents and purposes.

This says that (for example, if solo) Mordrak's unit (that would be GMM if he's solo) can be joined by a Ghost Knight. Note that this does not make a Ghost Knight unit - rather it's Mordrak's unit if he's solo.

For the next FAQ suggestion thread lets include a thorough summon list for an upcoming FAQ.
Things like LOS needed, cast from a vehicle etc etc. RAI is clearly not as RAW when it comes to summon.

Okay, I'll concede the point. Grand Master Mordrak on his own is not the same unit as Ghost Knights (which includes Grand Master Mordrak as an upgrade character).

SJ

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, what is really confusing is this:

Q: Are both Grand Master Mordrak and the Ghost Knights each
worth a Kill Point? (p40)
A: No, upgrade characters do not give additional Kill Points.

That's because ghost knights can only be killed when they are in the unit with Mordrak. Because Mordrak is not an independent character when he is joined by Ghost Knights he acts like an upgrade character until such point as the ghost knights are slain. They are not two units that have joined together.

Mordrak is a unit that can be be joined by ghost knights and because of this fact he cannot be a unit that ALWAYS consists of a single model.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Same could be said of a Hive Tyrant as he can join a Tyrant Guard Squad?

Actually no, a Hive Tyrant can act like an IC to join a Tyrant Guard Squad. IC can be units that are ALWAYS a single model and can join other units.

 Happyjew wrote:

So you can show me where in the codex the unit named Mordrak has the option to take more than 1 model?

Ghostly Bodyguards Special Rule, Pg 40 IIRC.

 Happyjew wrote:

Can a Paladin Squad unit buy more models for the Paladin Squad unit?

Yes. Its an option listed under the army list section.

 Happyjew wrote:

Can the Mordrak unit buy more models for the Mordrak unit?

Yes. Its not an option listed in the army list section but is an option listed under the Ghostly Bodyguards special rule.

Can the Hive Tyrant unit buy more models for Hive Tyrant unit?

No. No option is given in the army list section and no special rule allows you to add models to the hive tyrant's unit.