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It doesn't, it's an artificial distinction that you were the only one who pretended mattered.

40k doesn't even use formal names in the way you're talking about. Crowe was referred to by his first name in some other rule and people freaked out. It's stupid. GW sometimes just says "that guy".

That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for.

No, actually, specifically it ain't. The IC rule is only for a unit that has the option that has the option to be more than one model. It did not matter what it was called.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

It absolutely matters what the name of the unit is. That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for. Does that unit ever exist as more than one model?
Buying the Ghosts doesn't make a unit of Mordrak, it makes a unit of Ghost Knights - so Mordrak (as a unit) still only ever exists as one model.

I'm not "wasting" anyone's time.

Wait I thought you said:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why? Models join Mordrak's unit. Therefore Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

Not hard to follow. I don't think I missed anyone else saying that.

Now I am confused on your stance on it.

Sir - actually it does matter

GMM is a unit AND a model. If you buy Mordrak buy himself you have a Unit called "Grand Master Mordrak"

If you buy Ghost Knights with him, then the rules for Ghost Knights states that he forms a unit WITH them, with him acting as an upgrade character. This is a unit of Ghost Knights, which is *not* the same thing as the unit of Grand Master Mordrak

When he spawns models, he becomes if alone again a Unit of Ghost knights (as you are told this is the same as purchasing them initially), and the unit "Grand Master Mordrak" only reappears if all those GHost Knights are killed

Thus, you always have two distinct units: Grand Master Mordrak and Ghost Knights, where GMM is an upgrade character to the Ghost Knights.

The unit "GMM" *only* ever consists of one model; as soon as you add a Ghost Knight that unit "GMM" ceases to exist until such time as all the Ghost Knights are removed.

DR - this is where you are getting mixed up, and I believe Rigeld is correct. You have a single model unit, and a single model that can be subsumed within another unit - the two are the same model, but different Units.

No. You guys are playing games with names, and they do not matter.

Teh ghost knights are an option for Mordrak. They are one unit. They are not one unit if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't. He not even named one thing if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't.

He is what he is. The unit is what it is. The unit often consists of more than one model. That's it.

Seriously, I mean this, you guys are arguing about the stupid, most inconsequential thing.

To address the OP, the tactic would have been perfectly valid if the guy used First To The Fray to deploy Mordrak + Ghost Knights + Librarian on turn one. Then on turn 2 used a psychic power to summon one unit, then used deep strike from reserve to deploy the others, and if the Librarian had a teleport homer they would not have scattered.

Any other scenario means he actually cheated, since he cannot summon more than one unit per turn as per the rules for the psychic power in the codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It does not matter what the name of the unit is. Whether, it's Mordrak, ghost knights, or mordrak and the pointer sisters.

Mordrak is a guy, he can buy the ghosts as an option, and they're a unit. He, the whole unit, everything, is therefore not "always consist of a single model. " that is super freaking obvious, you've been quibbling, and wasting everyone's time.

It absolutely matters what the name of the unit is. That's exactly what the IC rule is looking for. Does that unit ever exist as more than one model?
Buying the Ghosts doesn't make a unit of Mordrak, it makes a unit of Ghost Knights - so Mordrak (as a unit) still only ever exists as one model.

I'm not "wasting" anyone's time.

Wait I thought you said:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why? Models join Mordrak's unit. Therefore Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

Not hard to follow. I don't think I missed anyone else saying that.

Now I am confused on your stance on it.

I was explaining why his statement wasn't enough proof while pumas was.

Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
No. You guys are playing games with names, and they do not matter.

Teh ghost knights are an option for Mordrak. They are one unit. They are not one unit if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't. He not even named one thing if he buys the upgrade, and another if he doesn't.

He is what he is. The unit is what it is. The unit often consists of more than one model. That's it.

Seriously, I mean this, you guys are arguing about the stupid, most inconsequential thing.

You're using your assumptions to guide you into interpreting the rule.
That's fine - peachy. That's not the best way to determine RAW.

Nos - Mordrak is wandering around, doing his thing. Someone dares to fire a bolt pistol at him and takes a wound off. He gets a Ghost Knight out of it. That Ghost Knight joins Mordrak's unit. So Mordrak's unit does not always consist of a single model.

I thought it was described as the same method as when purchasing - the he forms a unit with the newly arrived knight, so no matter how you do it you always dissolve the GMM unit and form a Ghost Knight unit

It's not. Purchasing them makes a unit of Ghost Knights. Spawned Knights "join Mordrak's unit".

I can't tell if this thread is just trolls being trolls or what...
I see this thread as everyone speaking different languages and yelling at the others that the wall is the color white.

I will concede however, at the end of my movement phase, if there are no Ghost knights on the table for my army, a libby will have to be outside of 2" of Mordrak.

Goat - not true. Ther is a prohibition on *joining* a unit that consists of one model, there is no restriction on *staying joined*

Rigeld - then that works, I thought it operated the same as for purchasing.

The fact there IS a distinction that should be made between the GMM and the Ghost Knight units is an important one though

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Wrong, as has been proven to you.

THere is ONE unit named "Grandmaster Mordrak". If you do not purchase any GhK, THAT is a single unit

If you DO purchase , then there is a unit named "Ghost Knights"

Disagree if you want, but actually follow the tenets of this forum and provide an argument. Serioulsy, your comments of "its stupid" add nothing to the thread, so please dont post if that is all you are going to say.

What a silly argument. Shoot Mordrak in the face with a Melta or a Lascannon. Failing that, charge him with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer and cave his face in - cheerio entire unit. Then shoot and/or punch the Libby in the groin. Twice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sir_Prometheus - then perhaps you shouldnt take part, if you feel this discussion is "stupid"?

It isnt playing around with names, it is pointing out that there are TWO units in question, one of which can be shown to only ever consist of one model. THis has an impact on the rules.

It's not two units, that's WHY it's stupid.

Wrong, as has been proven to you.

No.....a bunch of people said some stuff. Very little of it is true.

Mordrak is a character. He is part of a unti. That unit goes by several different names, frankly, but that isn't actually important. It's still just one unit. Which was proven to YOU.

Except that it was dumb. Because dur, it's a unit.

Sigh.

Believe what you want, there are two units, as has been proven. You have yet to give any actual rules otherwise, or shown any ability to argue the point

INstead you just claim everything is dumb. Which is getting boring now.

I getting bored with you saying things are "proven". If they were proven, I wouldn't be arguing with you.

You're arguing, youre not debating. There is a crucial difference

Try the tenets. Actually argue the point, or show failures in others arguments. Your constant rule-less debate-less assertions are not helping anything.

Buy a single Mordrak. What is the unit?
Buy a Mordrak plus 5 GhK. What is the unit?

There are two distinctly named units, which everyone here bar you actually understands. If you disagree further with the proven case, give page and para. Further posts which do not address the argument with actual rules will be considered your concession.

1) They are not distinctly named, the name of the cominbed unit isn't even all that clear (it's mostly calle Mordrak and his Ghost Knights)

2) I don't think the names are particularly material.

Mordrak can add on ghost knights. Thats it.

You haven't proven crap, and you consider whatever you want a concession. This argument is silly, and should stop.

1) Wrong. There is a unit named Mordrak.

There is also a unit named Ghost Knights.

Hell, you are even told that spawned GhK join MORDRAKS unit.

2) You can think that, but that would make you wrong, again. THe name defines the unit

So no, thats "not it" Proven wrong, with actual rules. Again.

This argument is afairly fundamental one, as it shows you dont understand a basic structure of the game.

I disagree with all of it, but wtf does it matter if it's not a unit that can only ever consist of one model? It is CLEARLY not that, so everything else is really just a bunch of noise.

No, it is you failing to understand a basic concept, and failing to once again provide any actual rules

Your opinion is just that, opinion. No rules anywhere to be found.

I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Which is a unit hat does not always consist of single model, the unit named Grand Master Mordrak, or the unit named Ghost Knights?

 Happyjew wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I understand your basic concept...it's insane. It's unit that is not always a single model. That's it, we're done.

Which is a unit hat does not always consist of single model, the unit named Grand Master Mordrak, or the unit named Ghost Knights?

Both actually.

There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

There are two units. One is called Grand Master Mordrak, its composition is Grand Master Mordrak. No more, no less. One unit is called Ghost Knights it consists of some Ghost Knights (not sure the exact number off hand) and Mordrak. I've never said the Ghost Knights can exist alone, in fact the rules even state that if Mordrak dies, so do all of the Ghost Knights. My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit, and there is a unit called Ghost Knights (which like Eldar Warloks, Necron Royal Courts, Command Squads, Tyrant Guards, Servitors, etc) require a specific unit to be purchased to be included in your army.

My argument is that there is a unit called Mordrak which has no options to add models and always exists as a single-model unit,

That sir, is a silly idea, and that's being charitable.

It's also blatantly untrue, even within your wholly fictional framework, because Mordrak can add a model if wounded. So it's AT LEAST two kinds of wrong.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
There aren't even two units. Regardless the ghost knights CAN'T exist alone, and mordrak always has the option to add ghosts. There's like 27 ways this your argument doesn't maek sense. THat's why it's stupid. You're really just making stuff up to justify some nutso position.

Yes there are.

Again, I will take this through with you nice and slowly.

You buy Mordrak by himself. What is the name of the unit you have purchased? A: Grand Master Mordrak
You buy Ghost Knights with Mordrak. What is the name of the unit you have purchased? A: Ghost Knights (because the rules tell you that mordrak is an upgrade character for the unit)

There. Proven, there are two units.

So, please retract your lie, and apologise for your continued inability to argue without insulting people.