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 ADustyMan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds a lot like "suck it up and deal with it". Which I do. I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good and beating them is some kind of accomplishment.

Everytime I play Blood Angels I get my silly ass stomped.

Did you mean as the BA or against the BA?

 B3AN wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

You can, you just need to adjust your expectations of the army.

Why should BA players suffer for loving the fluff? It's frustrating that you cant build a fluffy army and have it be competitive. When first getting into this game, alot of us chose based off race and fluff correct? So if you choose an army you perceive to be cool or awesome (BA were apparently awesome in 5th, I never played 5th) and they get either nerfed or negated competitively, why should the player get screwed? There should be, IMO, ways to allow armies that are in BA's "love the fluff and die or play another army" situation, to be competitive and unbroken. How about FAQing BA's fluff to work with 6th edition for one. Dropping costs and opening up shooting options. I mean, GW does a great job of getting you into your army, selling you the models, etc, etc. Then pulls the rug out from under you and says. "Sorry kid, looks like all your money and time was wasted. BUT HEY theres always this OTHER army you could play." So to all that would say, "play another army if you dont like it" YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Unless your opponent is a horde user. Blood Angels do...horrible things...to hordes.

*Shudders in memory of Blenderdreads.*

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 B3AN wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

You can, you just need to adjust your expectations of the army.

Why should BA players suffer for loving the fluff? It's frustrating that you cant build a fluffy army and have it be competitive. When first getting into this game, alot of us chose based off race and fluff correct? So if you choose an army you perceive to be cool or awesome (BA were apparently awesome in 5th, I never played 5th) and they get either nerfed or negated competitively, why should the player get screwed? There should be, IMO, ways to allow armies that are in BA's "love the fluff and die or play another army" situation, to be competitive and unbroken. How about FAQing BA's fluff to work with 6th edition for one. Dropping costs and opening up shooting options. I mean, GW does a great job of getting you into your army, selling you the models, etc, etc. Then pulls the rug out from under you and says. "Sorry kid, looks like all your money and time was wasted. BUT HEY theres always this OTHER army you could play." So to all that would say, "play another army if you dont like it" YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Unless your opponent is a horde user. Blood Angels do...horrible things...to hordes.

*Shudders in memory of Blenderdreads.*

Nah, good horde lists just swamp them in bodies. Poor model count is a killer in 6th. Blender dreads aren't even good. That's what non-BA players don't understand.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.

Losing out to the Space Wolves is like getting fewer medals than the US or China at the olympics. It's kind of a given.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.

Losing out to the Space Wolves is like getting fewer medals than the US or China at the olympics. It's kind of a given.

Feth that, pardon my French. I refuse to lower my standards. The BA at least were competitive against them in 5th. Now they are just victims.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 B3AN wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

You can, you just need to adjust your expectations of the army.

Why should BA players suffer for loving the fluff? It's frustrating that you cant build a fluffy army and have it be competitive. When first getting into this game, alot of us chose based off race and fluff correct? So if you choose an army you perceive to be cool or awesome (BA were apparently awesome in 5th, I never played 5th) and they get either nerfed or negated competitively, why should the player get screwed? There should be, IMO, ways to allow armies that are in BA's "love the fluff and die or play another army" situation, to be competitive and unbroken. How about FAQing BA's fluff to work with 6th edition for one. Dropping costs and opening up shooting options. I mean, GW does a great job of getting you into your army, selling you the models, etc, etc. Then pulls the rug out from under you and says. "Sorry kid, looks like all your money and time was wasted. BUT HEY theres always this OTHER army you could play." So to all that would say, "play another army if you dont like it" YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Unless your opponent is a horde user. Blood Angels do...horrible things...to hordes.

*Shudders in memory of Blenderdreads.*

Nah, good horde lists just swamp them in bodies. Poor model count is a killer in 6th. Blender dreads aren't even good. That's what non-BA players don't understand.

Ork boyz and Gaunts are literally incapable of stopping a blenderdread from cutting them apart. As someone who's fond of massing gaunts to troll tournament junkies this is terrible. If a Blenderdread gets stuck in and mulches a lot of infantry without wiping out the entire squad in one go it's doing it's job. Take it from someone who once thought 20 kitted out genestealers was a great idea, you never, ever want a unit that can wipe out a squad in assault in one turn.

Don't let the slow ass thing assault you to being with. I've let opposing BA players get one of those things to me exactly once. And even then it was a squad I chose for it to assault. BA don't get lucious pods, and so blender dreads have no good delivery options.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.

Losing out to the Space Wolves is like getting fewer medals than the US or China at the olympics. It's kind of a given.

Feth that, pardon my French. I refuse to lower my standards. The BA at least were competitive against them in 5th. Now they are just victims.

As a Tyranid player who has languished at the bottom of the tier totem pole since the Tau got their shinies (their is no denying it, as of now the Tyranids are the single crappiest army in the entire game), allow me to dispense this advice to you. Grow up you cry baby. There's more to 40k than beating the high end armies like the Crons, Space Wolves, and GKs. I mean it's not like the Tyranids, Eldar, and Orks have been languishing at the bottom here for a while, or that the Guard's once beloved tanks are now piles of crap and their mechlists are now more vulnerable than ever. I mean it's not like the Vanilla marines aren't still largely inferior to the Blood Angels, what with your almost garaunteed air supremacy. I mean, hey forget about the Sisters of battle and their crappy WD codex. Oh nooo, the Blood Angels are no longer the god tier ubermensch of 5e, oh woe is me, all is lost.

Because that is seriously what you're sounding like.

 B3AN wrote:

"Losing out to the Space Wolves is like getting fewer medals than the US or China at the olympics. It's kind of a given."

My point is there shouldn't BE a top tier army list. There should be a way for ALL armies to be competitive in their own right without having to rely on allies that pick up the slack that their codex drops. You know? I mean I hate to keep beating a dead horse and all but... games like Starcraft do it. (and yes I understand there is a difference between PC RTS and Table Top gaming) However, GW just wants to sell certain flavors of the week / edition. 40K could be so much more than it is.

Blizzard gives a damn. GW doesn't. Simple as that.

Martel732 wrote:

 ADustyMan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds a lot like "suck it up and deal with it". Which I do. I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good and beating them is some kind of accomplishment.

Everytime I play Blood Angels I get my silly ass stomped.

Did you mean as the BA or against the BA?

I play Dark Angels, when I play against the BA, my Space Marines become breathing impaired.

I was proud of the day Azrael went toe to toe with Mephy for 5 turns though.

Martel732 wrote:

 B3AN wrote:

"

Vanilla marines have substantially more utility than the BA. That statement alone invalidates your post. I don't mind losing as much as every iconic BA unit and tactic is basically crap in 6th edition. That sucks hard. Yeah, I can do things that are effective within the new rules, but they aren't very TAC and don't capture the spirit of the chapter at all. Blood Angels weren't even top 3 in 5th anyway, so that shows your lack of understanding of the situation as well.

And your statement about air superiority is also laughable. The price tag on the Stormraven makes it mediocre at best.

Remind me again what the Vanilla marines intend to oppose your Storm Ravens with for mastery of the skies. Because it certainly isn't going to be the Storm Talon (aka the big ugly toaster). Also, that is not how debating works. Nitpicking single invalid points does not invalidate the entire argument. If I were to go on a rant about why Hitler was a bad person and included vegetarianism in that argument, that does not invalidate my claim that Hitler is a bad person and thus make him morally justified. Yes it's Godwin's law, no I don't care about that, he's been dead for seventy years, he's fully open for mockery and derision.

As for your comment, until the Grey Knights showed up at the very tail end of 5e, yes, yes they were in the top three. They just got edged out by someone seriously late to the party.

 B3AN wrote:
My point is there shouldn't BE a top tier army list. There should be a way for ALL armies to be competitive in their own right without having to rely on allies that pick up the slack that their codex drops. You know? I mean I hate to keep beating a dead horse and all but... games like Starcraft do it. (and yes I understand there is a difference between PC RTS and Table Top gaming) However, GW just wants to sell certain flavors of the week / edition. 40K could be so much more than it is.

Balancing large amounts of highly distinct armies in a favorable way without just making them all palette swaps is virtually impossible. There will be imbalances, you can try to minimize them, but as Codexes are released sequentially rather than all at once (which would present it's own problems as none of the codexes would be able to build on the experiences of each other) for every edition minimizing that balance will be difficult as the newer dexes will patch up obvious flaws in the old ones that came from less complete understanding of how the game is played. If you did release them all at once, you're liable to end up with multiple utterly broken codexes. If you tried to have new codexes conform to the general flaws of the old ones, then allow me to posit the notion of every codex in 5e being built to the same cheesey standards of the early 5e ork codex for example.

Can the current system be fixed or improved? Yes. Is it doable? Yes. Is it practical? Now there's an issue. Especially with multiple writers going off in separate directions with differing ideas of how an army should play or what constitutes as balanced or not.

Well the Vanilla marines could always bring their own Stormravens, but Stormravens are really just target practice for Vendettas at this point. The Ceramite armor is not known for efficacy against mass lascannon. The Stormraven is too expensive to be considered "good", imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ADustyMan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ADustyMan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds a lot like "suck it up and deal with it". Which I do. I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good and beating them is some kind of accomplishment.

Everytime I play Blood Angels I get my silly ass stomped.

Did you mean as the BA or against the BA?

I play Dark Angels, when I play against the BA, my Space Marines become breathing impaired.

I was proud of the day Azrael went toe to toe with Mephy for 5 turns though.

Any list bringing Mephiston in 6th has serious issues right there. You should be able to outshoot him with your 6th edition codex and then give him suboptimal assault targets and set up kill zones and counter charges for the next turn. BA have terrible model count in 6th edition. Exploit this, and the fact that their ASM are functionally no better than vanilla ASM now. And exploit the fact that BA are little bitches if they're not assaulting.

Hasn't this thread gone off topic a long long time ago? If you want to discuss the balance between armies and how far an army has fallen with new edition or new codexes, I suggest the general forum. If you're looking for tactics on how to make a better BA list, then I suggest the tactics forum.

Also, try playing a xenos army and have it go obsolete ten years ago. You can't even do a grey-marine move with those.

Yeah, it's off topic. /thread

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Come play the BA for a while and see if you still think that. After losing to the Space Wolves for the 10th time in a row, you might have a different opinion. The Space Wolf codex alone completely invalidates our 6th edition incarnation, much less how CSM ended up with all of our init 5 mojo.

Losing out to the Space Wolves is like getting fewer medals than the US or China at the olympics. It's kind of a given.

Feth that, pardon my French. I refuse to lower my standards. The BA at least were competitive against them in 5th. Now they are just victims.

As a Tyranid player who has languished at the bottom of the tier totem pole since the Tau got their shinies (their is no denying it, as of now the Tyranids are the single crappiest army in the entire game), allow me to dispense this advice to you. Grow up you cry baby. There's more to 40k than beating the high end armies like the Crons, Space Wolves, and GKs. I mean it's not like the Tyranids, Eldar, and Orks have been languishing at the bottom here for a while, or that the Guard's once beloved tanks are now piles of crap and their mechlists are now more vulnerable than ever. I mean it's not like the Vanilla marines aren't still largely inferior to the Blood Angels, what with your almost garaunteed air supremacy. I mean, hey forget about the Sisters of battle and their crappy WD codex. Oh nooo, the Blood Angels are no longer the god tier ubermensch of 5e, oh woe is me, all is lost.

Because that is seriously what you're sounding like.

Tyranids got huge buffs in 6th. Tyranids aren't even close to the bottom of the Totem poll, they did very well in the BAO and Adepitcon. Perhaps if you disregard, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Sisters of Battle, then perhaps Tyranids may be somewhere in the running. This may have relegated them to a few builds, but as their tournament performance shows, they have made it into the top 10, a major GT. When was the last time the aforementioned codexes did so?

Also, in what way do Blood Angels have Air Superiority over Vanilla? Considering Vanilla Marines get both the Stormtalon and the Stormraven.

Blood Angels were also never "Uber" in 5th. They didn't even come close to Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and IG.

Remind me again what the Vanilla marines intend to oppose your Storm Ravens with for mastery of the skies. Because it certainly isn't going to be the Storm Talon (aka the big ugly toaster). Also, that is not how debating works. Nitpicking single invalid points does not invalidate the entire argument. If I were to go on a rant about why Hitler was a bad person and included vegetarianism in that argument, that does not invalidate my claim that Hitler is a bad person and thus make him morally justified. Yes it's Godwin's law, no I don't care about that, he's been dead for seventy years, he's fully open for mockery and derision.

Perhaps you should do some research, instead of being ignorant. Vanilla Marines can take both the Storm Raven, and the Storm Talon.

 Sasori wrote:
*Snip cruddace apologist*

I'll concede on the Blood Angels but the Tyranids are godawful in 6e. Fliers of any sort shut down the entire army because of our extremely limited options for dealing with them. The FNP nerf hurt Tervigons seriously. The reduction of Assault in importance is really bad news for an assault focused army. We still don't have grenades on anything that they would be useful on. Our anti-tank is still bollocks. We still have exactly two invulnerable saves across the entire army while the rest remain about as vulnerable to power weapons as ever. The addition of overwatch has made virtually any charge I've ever made end with the brood I used more or less crippled beyond any further usage after a single assault assuming it survived all the shooting to even get there.

The Carnifex has with the loss of armorbane, gone from bad to worse with literally only one build of it being viable now, Flyrants have to relentlessly babysit the entire army if there's so much as a single hint of aircraft buzzing around, Genestealers took a massive hit upon the loss of the ability to outflank, most of the units in the Codex are still overpriced (Tyrant guards) or aren't terribly useful in the first place (Pyrovores), we've become a horde army that is routinely outnumbered by Orks or blobguard (seriously, what the heck!?), and we still don't have the customization we had in 4e.

On our biomorphs, most anything that isn't toxin sacs or adrenal glands is almost certainly going to cost an arm and a leg, rendering biomorphs that would be worth a try like Regeneration, Trygon Prime status, or Armored shell an inordinate sacrifice that is likely to cost you dearly whereas most other armies seem to be able to stuff on wargear without much cost. Warriors are still hilariously vulnerable with their mediocre armor save and average toughness, I mean the list of problems with the 5e dex is freaking enormous.

Since the Tau's update it's also one of the oldest codexes still going around and it still remains firmly rooted in mediocrity or outright terribleness. The high end armies can work with a lot of builds and still work well, the 6e Tyranid army can only work with a select few builds if you don't like crashing and burning. I mean, look at the number of viable Necron builds you can have that are all considered high class. Maximum threat overload, wall of AV13, Flying circus, wraithwing, TremorC'tan, etc, and our list which is mostly constrained to a splurge of Tervigon/Termagaunts, Flyrants, Hive guard, and spending whatever points you have left on Dakkafexes (or Tfexes if you're feeling lucky) and Harpies.

Against the Blood Angels, they drop a blenderdread, we die horribly because most Tyranid troops can't even hurt them, or maybe they just drive up some Baal predators and torch the entire blob or maybe they just rub their storm ravens in our faces or still beat us in assault. Against SOBs I can tell you how little success I've had trying to force them into assault since Flamers more or less autotorch any blob that gets close and meltas everywhere makes my monstrous creatures cry. The Black Templars and maybe the Eldar are perhaps the only favorable matchup for the 6e nids, everyone else presents an uphill battle.

Guard presents fliers we are heavily disadvantaged against as well as their age old pieplate and template spam that has traditionally been one of our biggest weaknesses since 2e. With overwatch charging Orks is borderline suicidal, and their weaknesses against mech armies don't apply against an army that literally has not a single vehicle in sight, and they still outshoot us. I've yet to win a battle against the Tau that didn't involve more or less clogging the entire battlefield with Tervigon spawned gaunts as my MCs are plasma fodder and anything I try to fly gets slapped down with missiles. We do better against MEQ armies, but not by much, Chaos' new toys still give me fits (who gave the Heldrake an AP3 flamer!?!), Space Wolves are still Space Wolves, Normal Space Marines now meet my list with triple vindicators, contemptor dreads, and aircraft and bring about crushing defeat for me, Grey Knights are still all but a hard counter for the Tyranids, the Dark Eldar are tied with the GKs in the single worst matchup a Tyranid army can have.

I haven't seen much of the new Daemons, but other than the fact that Tzeentch shooting now has the amusing possibility of rendering it's targets invincible with stackable FNP, plagueburers aren't quite as tough and Juggernauts now suck hard the army as a whole seems to have gone up several notches with more properly priced units, all sorts of new goodies, no longer gimped deployment, allies we don't get, and new forgeworld stuff. Nurglite Decimator daemon engines are what Old One eye wants to be when he grows up damn it!

The Eldar seem to share my poor bugs misery as a low tier army. But they like the Orks have the light of a new codex just around the corner. Us? We're stuck with Robin's god awful book for the forseeable future. I mean, I still like to play the Tyranids, but it's become rather frustrating, the army is not forgiving of mistakes either tactically or build wise while most of my meta's armies are extremely flexible in what they can bring while still being good or what they can bring to completely screw me over. By this point, I mostly focus on making winning as frustrating and annoying as experience as possible for the other guy while accepting that I'm almost garaunteed to lose to any list I haven't tailored exactly to.

Eh, who knows, maybe the next Tyranid Codex will be blatantly overpowered and the long night* will finally end.

*The Period from the release of 5e onwards in which the Tyranids have constantly wallowed in mediocrity.

For one, I am not a Cruddace apologist. If you would ever read my posts on the subject, you would know that. I even addressed in my post that Tyranids are pretty much limited to one competitive build. So, get your facts correct, before you start insulting people.

'll concede on the Blood Angels but the Tyranids are godawful in 6e. Fliers of any sort shut down the entire army because of our extremely limited options for dealing with them. The FNP nerf hurt Tervigons seriously. The reduction of Assault in importance is really bad news for an assault focused army. We still don't have grenades on anything that they would be useful on. Our anti-tank is still bollocks. We still have exactly two invulnerable saves across the entire army while the rest remain about as vulnerable to power weapons as ever. The addition of overwatch has made virtually any charge I've ever made end with the brood I used more or less crippled beyond any further usage after a single assault assuming it survived all the shooting to even get there.

If Tyranids are so God-awful, then how did they place well in the BAO? 9th place at a 60+ GT indicates that they have the tools to be comptative. They also did well at Adepticon. The Tyranid codex does have it's issue, but Overwatch has hardly ever been a deterrent. The new Tau Overwatch may be, but killing 1-3 Gaunts has never rained on my parade. It doesn't cripple the army by any means.

The Carnifex has with the loss of armorbane, gone from bad to worse with literally only one build of it being viable now, Flyrants have to relentlessly babysit the entire army if there's so much as a single hint of aircraft buzzing around, Genestealers took a massive hit upon the loss of the ability to outflank, most of the units in the Codex are still overpriced (Tyrant guards) or aren't terribly useful in the first place (Pyrovores), we've become a horde army that is routinely outnumbered by Orks or blobguard (seriously, what the heck!?), and we still don't have the customization we had in 4e.

Yes, Carnifexes are still bad. This isn't news. Genestealers can still outflank, they just cannot assault from outflank anymore. Neither Orks, nor Blobguard can manufacture more of their horde units on the batlefield, like Tyranids.

On our biomorphs, most anything that isn't toxin sacs or adrenal glands is almost certainly going to cost an arm and a leg, rendering biomorphs that would be worth a try like Regeneration, Trygon Prime status, or Armored shell an inordinate sacrifice that is likely to cost you dearly whereas most other armies seem to be able to stuff on wargear without much cost. Warriors are still hilariously vulnerable with their mediocre armor save and average toughness, I mean the list of problems with the 5e dex is freaking enormous.

At what point did I say the codex overall was good? I said that they got buffs in 6th, which they did, and they have one competitive build, which has been proven in major GTs.

Since the Tau's update it's also one of the oldest codexes still going around and it still remains firmly rooted in mediocrity or outright terribleness. The high end armies can work with a lot of builds and still work well, the 6e Tyranid army can only work with a select few builds if you don't like crashing and burning. I mean, look at the number of viable Necron builds you can have that are all considered high class. Maximum threat overload, wall of AV13, Flying circus, wraithwing, TremorC'tan, etc, and our list which is mostly constrained to a splurge of Tervigon/Termagaunts, Flyrants, Hive guard, and spending whatever points you have left on Dakkafexes (or Tfexes if you're feeling lucky) and Harpies.

I addressed in my post, that Tyranids only have one competative build. So, you're just agreeing with me here.

Against the Blood Angels, they drop a blenderdread, we die horribly because most Tyranid troops can't even hurt them, or maybe they just drive up some Baal predators and torch the entire blob or maybe they just rub their storm ravens in our faces or still beat us in assault. Against SOBs I can tell you how little success I've had trying to force them into assault since Flamers more or less autotorch any blob that gets close and meltas everywhere makes my monstrous creatures cry. The Black Templars and maybe the Eldar are perhaps the only favorable matchup for the 6e nids, everyone else presents an uphill battle.

If they drop a Blender Dread, you have an entire turn to take it out, before it can assault. Otherwise it has to run up the the battlefield, and you have ample time to eliminate it. Baal predators with a Flamestorm cannon are laughably weak. Storm Ravens are the only thing that Blood Angels have going for them against Tyranids. Sisters can't bring enough melta to deal with all of our Monstrous creatures, and without allies, our Flying Hive Tyrants pretty much have free reign. The Doom also makes quick work of them, as well as the Psychic Zoey Choir.

Guard presents fliers we are heavily disadvantaged against as well as their age old pieplate and template spam that has traditionally been one of our biggest weaknesses since 2e. With overwatch charging Orks is borderline suicidal, and their weaknesses against mech armies don't apply against an army that literally has not a single vehicle in sight, and they still outshoot us. I've yet to win a battle against the Tau that didn't involve more or less clogging the entire battlefield with Tervigon spawned gaunts as my MCs are plasma fodder and anything I try to fly gets slapped down with missiles. We do better against MEQ armies, but not by much, Chaos' new toys still give me fits (who gave the Heldrake an AP3 flamer!?!), Space Wolves are still Space Wolves, Normal Space Marines now meet my list with triple vindicators, contemptor dreads, and aircraft and bring about crushing defeat for me, Grey Knights are still all but a hard counter for the Tyranids, the Dark Eldar are tied with the GKs in the single worst matchup a Tyranid army can have.

Guard have always been a tough match up for Nids, and still are in 6th. Orks lost a lot of their punch with the Furious Charge nerf, they are a pretty balanced match up, but the Doom causes a lot of pain to them. The new Tau are even more susceptible to the Doom and Choir Zoeys, than most other armies. The Heldrake is not an issue for Nids at all, really, Orks and Nids have the least amount of trouble with Heldrakes. The worst they do is take out a few gaunts, and maybe a wound of a Monstrous creature. I haven't had much trouble with Vanilla Marines, Biomancy Tyrants, and Psychic Choir do a number on them. Grey Knights are still pretty rough, but aren't near the nightmare they used to be. Venomspam Dark Eldar, are a hard counter, but I don't see Venomspam near as much anymore.

haven't seen much of the new Daemons, but other than the fact that Tzeentch shooting now has the amusing possibility of rendering it's targets invincible with stackable FNP, plagueburers aren't quite as tough and Juggernauts now suck hard the army as a whole seems to have gone up several notches with more properly priced units, all sorts of new goodies, no longer gimped deployment, allies we don't get, and new forgeworld stuff. Nurglite Decimator daemon engines are what Old One eye wants to be when he grows up damn it!

Daemons went down from their broken state, to balanced, like the other 6th edition codexes.

The Eldar seem to share my poor bugs misery as a low tier army. But they like the Orks have the light of a new codex just around the corner. Us? We're stuck with Robin's god awful book for the forseeable future.

Tyranids have been updated every edition of 40k. I imagine the update isn't too far away.

To sum it up, I never said Tyranids were a Good codex. I said they got buffed in 6th. Tournament results show this to be fact. I also said they have maybe one build, which is also fact because of the terrible internal balance in the book.

 Kain wrote:
who gave the Heldrake an AP3 flamer!?!

Phil Kelly!!!

Since this thread is not quite dead, I'll chime in.

I've said this many times, but I'll clarify again. BA have tools in the tool box to deal with most codices. But the cost of said tools make them mutually exclusive. This means that BA have a terrible time fielding TAC lists.

The other thing about the BA are the crazy number of "trap units". Units that look phenomenal on paper and have awesome fluff, but just fall flat on the tabletop. Go look in the army list thread at the BA lists and then think how many of them are a legitimate threat to your lists.

To Sasori's point, Stormravens are great against Nids, but suck hard against the Vendetta. If the BA player doesn't know his opponent a priori, then what do you put in your list?

The BA have been nerfed on so many fronts in subtle ways that a lot of non-BA players don't think about. It's not just furious charge. Our captains don't even get the same gear options as C:SM captains, for example. Minor, but it all adds up.

I play against a pool of players where there are some that are quite astute and knowledgable, and then several that are much more "do what looks cool". The difference playing against someone who understands the flaws of the BA is staggering. The good players really know how to take advantage of the lack of model count, and the BA just don't do enough damage on a per model basis to make up for it.

I'm not going to sit here and say the Tyranid list is great, because it isn't. However, I will rank them ahead of BA, because one tournament viable list archetype is better than zero. The inability to field good TAC lists is crippling.

No offense to the people in the argument here, but might I ask that... what does this have to do with plasma guns and krak missiles again?

Personally, I feel that plasma should remain ap2. Why would I pay 15 points for something that only pierces with AP3, cannot one hit kill normal marines, and has a chance of killing my own units.

I'm not as experienced against/with missile launchers personally. I've never fielded them and the sorts. However, I've seen my friend use them with zeal at the hordy army of nids (thanks to synapse packing them all together) and as soon as the threatening units come in it could quickly swap to a strength 8 shot on the bat (that can actually one hit kill my chaos space marine hq unless I make him nurgle). So make it ap2? It's going to be, in my own opinion, more effective than a lascannon!

Honestly, the only gripe I have is that flakk really isn't that great at anti air considering the oddly high propensity of AV12 flyers.

(Off-topic comments. I agree that Blood Angels are on the lower level of the codeces but they certainly aren't the worst. Sisters of Battle, Eldar, and Black Templars I feel suffer from that far more. Nids, eeeh.... although they do have a fieldable tactic, they certainly are far too limimted

@Sasori My apologies for bothering you sir (I'm not quite sure whether to ask you here or pm) but Daemons were broken!? All I could remember hearing was moans of how they were a mess to play as with one of the worst deployment rules of the game and Grey Knights crippled them to the point of being meaningless (until the white dwarf made a few units over the top good... which then they got grabbed with some that really weren't broken and smashed into the ground or a slightly below average unit).

Sasori My apologies for bothering you sir (I'm not quite sure whether to ask you here or pm) but Daemons were broken!? All I could remember hearing was moans of how they were a mess to play as with one of the worst deployment rules of the game and Grey Knights crippled them to the point of being meaningless (until the white dwarf made a few units over the top good... which then they got grabbed with some that really weren't broken and smashed into the ground or a slightly below average unit).

The Flamer/Screamer WD update is what I was referring Those units were obscenely OP.

 Sasori wrote:

Sasori My apologies for bothering you sir (I'm not quite sure whether to ask you here or pm) but Daemons were broken!? All I could remember hearing was moans of how they were a mess to play as with one of the worst deployment rules of the game and Grey Knights crippled them to the point of being meaningless (until the white dwarf made a few units over the top good... which then they got grabbed with some that really weren't broken and smashed into the ground or a slightly below average unit).

The Flamer/Screamer WD update is what I was referring Those units were obscenely OP.

Overall the 4th ed daemon army was terrible. A few good units couldn't save the fact that it's wonky deployment meant you couldn't even plan for your own army.

 Kain wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Sasori My apologies for bothering you sir (I'm not quite sure whether to ask you here or pm) but Daemons were broken!? All I could remember hearing was moans of how they were a mess to play as with one of the worst deployment rules of the game and Grey Knights crippled them to the point of being meaningless (until the white dwarf made a few units over the top good... which then they got grabbed with some that really weren't broken and smashed into the ground or a slightly below average unit).

The Flamer/Screamer WD update is what I was referring Those units were obscenely OP.

Overall the 4th ed daemon army was terrible. A few good units couldn't save the fact that it's wonky deployment meant you couldn't even plan for your own army.

The Army for the most part, was terrible. However, those incredibly OP units saw it go undefeated in the BAO, and on to win several high positions in a ton of tournaments.

I highly doubt she won the BAO purely because of the new supposedly OP units.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I highly doubt she won the BAO purely because of the new supposedly OP units.

It played a significant factor.

Are you trying to say that those units, were not absurdly good?

No, not at all.

 Sasori wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I highly doubt she won the BAO purely because of the new supposedly OP units.

It played a significant factor.

Are you trying to say that those units, were not absurdly good?

It's all good now. Now Flamers have a 2/3rd chance of giving Marines, Orks, and Necrons endlessly stackable feel no pain. Clearly creating invincible enemies to kick his arse is all part of Tzeentch's master plan.