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That would totally invalidate autocannons and make lascannons only better against AV14, and inferior against everything else.

Missile launchers are fine as they are. Maybe one change would be to make Flakk missiles standard, as priced in the CSM codex they are way overpriced.

I really don't think they are fine, but I'm going to have to the next edition for them to get better. Free flakk missiles would be more tempting if the main threats weren't AV 12 fliers.

But, yeah, we can't make them heavy 2. They are stuck in a mathematical conundrum of their particular combination of stats lack efficacy in 6th edition in many, many situations. Not a good TAC weapon at all.

Being free would go a long way to making them an attractive choice, also making devastators get them for the same price tactical marines get them.

IMO the prices for Devastator weapons should be,

Missile Launcher: Free

Multi-melta: Free

Heavy Bolter: Free

Plasma Cannon: 15 pts

Lascannon: 15 pts

Martel732 wrote:
But, yeah, we can't make them heavy 2. They are stuck in a mathematical conundrum of their particular combination of stats lack efficacy in 6th edition in many, many situations. Not a good TAC weapon at all.

What about allowing them to fire at full BS after moving? Would this not make them a more attractive choice over LC's as far as mobility in a TAC list? There are still alot of game mechanics and tactics I am learning. Been learning alot from this thread. Thanks.

I know my question has no real bearing on the outcome of this argument/discussion because we cannot change what ML are or do. I personally take plasma over ML because I think they do offer more utility. Yes, you have the Gets Hot! risk and a higher points cost. However, plasma seems to just do MORE for me personally right now. I plan to play test a Dev ML squad in a friendly game or two though. But thats how I am with games. I like to play with everything a few times to get the full understanding.

Martel, it seems to me that you are one of those players (crybabies?) who wants only his army to have the goodies.

And no, you didn't fix anything. The standard ML has good range, instant deaths multiple wound T4 targets, can do nasties to anything but a LR which it has to glance, and can be used to hammer horde armies.

Sure its not as good at AP against super heavy infantry, but then again it does not fry its user either, I suggest that you are really suffering from either:

1. Bad dice rolls/luck or

2. Lack of tactical ability either in movement or basic placement of your units.

Autocannons are good weapons yes, but stats wise
Range Strength AP Type
48" 7 4 Heavy 2

Vs

Missile Launcher
Frag
Range Strength AP Type
48" 4 6 Heavy 1, Blast
Krak
Range Strength AP Type
48" 8 3 Heavy 1

So, 2 dice at AP 4 vs MEQ makes it a "torrent weapon"? when the other guy has a 66% chance of saving, and no instant death? I'd take the ML thanks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Being free would go a long way to making them an attractive choice, also making devastators get them for the same price tactical marines get them.

IMO the prices for Devastator weapons should be,

Missile Launcher: Free

Multi-melta: Free

Heavy Bolter: Free

Plasma Cannon: 15 pts

Lascannon: 15 pts

so 13 point 3+ save models with str8 ap3 weapon? Half the price of long fangs?

or do you mean with the current crazy tactical squad pricing?

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Martel, it seems to me that you are one of those players (crybabies?) who wants only his army to have the goodies.

And no, you didn't fix anything. The standard ML has good range, instant deaths multiple wound T4 targets, can do nasties to anything but a LR which it has to glance, and can be used to hammer horde armies.

Sure its not as good at AP against super heavy infantry, but then again it does not fry its user either, I suggest that you are really suffering from either:

1. Bad dice rolls/luck or

2. Lack of tactical ability either in movement or basic placement of your units.

Autocannons are good weapons yes, but stats wise
Range Strength AP Type
48" 7 4 Heavy 2

Vs

Missile Launcher
Frag
Range Strength AP Type
48" 4 6 Heavy 1, Blast
Krak
Range Strength AP Type
48" 8 3 Heavy 1

So, 2 dice at AP 4 vs MEQ makes it a "torrent weapon"? when the other guy has a 66% chance of saving, and no instant death? I'd take the ML thanks.

I'm nothing of the sort. And I don't think you are thinking this through at all. If the ML did get a bump up, it would strongly depend on what it was, because I still don't much care for STR 8 for anti-tank purposes. To show it's not just my army, I wouldn't touch a heavy rail rifle either for anti-tank purposes. Not heavy tanks. I think the Tau got hosed on that and the heavy rail rifle should be STR 9. But keep making assumptions about me.

Give the meqs 5+ cover and then run the numbers. Check vs AV 11 and then run the numbers. Check vs 2+ armor saves and then run the numbers. Most meqs have one wound anyway, unless for some reason you actually care about FNP. Oh right, MLs can't ID the good meqs, the plague marines, they can only ID the loser BA. So unless you are really metagaming for one of the worst lists in the game, this is not a consideration.

Krak missiles also stink up the joint against AV 13. I leave this as an exercise for the poster to figure out why.

As I have stated before, I think it's highly dubious that a rapid fire weapon that can be moved 6" and shoot twice can wholesale slaughter teqs, while a stationary heavy one weapon can't do a thing. However, people have showed that there aren't any viable fixes for this. It's just another just stupid 40K imbalance. It's supposed to be good because it can do nothing from 48" away?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Being free would go a long way to making them an attractive choice, also making devastators get them for the same price tactical marines get them.

IMO the prices for Devastator weapons should be,

Missile Launcher: Free

Multi-melta: Free

Heavy Bolter: Free

Plasma Cannon: 15 pts

Lascannon: 15 pts

That's absurd.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh right, MLs can't ID the good meqs, the plague marines, they can only ID the loser BA.

Only chaos get plagues (even then, it only tends to be 1-2 squads. Bar the people doing mono nurgle lists). How many marine armies are there?

But overall I like including people ml's in tac squads. It's one less bolter shooting at me as Tactical squads actually move nowadays. Snap fire sometimes works.

I've suffered my own bad deployment before and ended up fighting a FW plasma cannon predator with a squad of csm with an ML. I rolled well and stopped it shooting for two turns, then blew it up.
With an ML.
I like that it's cheap and that it has a chance of killing something, even though its not likely.

I agree with you on there not being much room to change anything about the ML though.

Maybe you could try making missiles salvo 1/2 48" in a play test?

This whole discussion makes me realize just how disgusting the psyrifleman is. It's literally a mobile quad krak launcher in the elite slot. It doesn't have AP 3, but who cares?

Its also the only long ranged anti-tank besides the Vindicare that GKs have.

and its only Elite if the GK player wants to pay extra for the Venerable Dreadnought, or he wants his HS slots for Dreadknights.


Its only OP if you compare it in a vacuum, but in the context of a codex with no long ranged firepower its just fine.

That seems like a poor rationale for the psyrifleman after this whole thread about what is reasonable.

OP lists like the Grey Knights are the synergy of multiple OP units put together. So the psyrifleman is an issue, because it contributes to the horror show. I don't have the option to put that kind of firepower in my elite slots; I can't even put in as much as the C:SM.

And you have failed to appreciate what a major disadvantage having almost no ranged shooting beyond 24" is.

Perhaps, but it doesn't stop the GK from being a hell of a list. So many BA players try the "I won't participate in the shooting phase" and get mulched. Of course, many of them are trying this because if you shoot, you're just gimped vanilla marines which is pretty much the case.

BA shooting lists are hardly gimped Vanilla marines. Trading Combat Tactics for FnP army wide is pretty nice.

It's hard to get it army wide. And the sanguinary priest is a weak sauce IC that dies like slime when they blow a LoS roll. The good FNP marines are of course plague marines. BA are just pretenders.

The model count issue for the BA is too high of a mountain to climb in most TAC scenarios. Pretty sure most of my TAC lists would crumple like cheap suits against GK. Psyriflemen deny FNP anyway, oh the irony!

This is assuming your opponent knows what he's doing and has a good list.

And who is putting their SP out front where he will be taking LoS rolls? In a shooty list he'll be at the back of the squad.

three Priests project three 12" diameter bubbles. That's 340 square inches of board space where only a single member of the unit needs to be inside to get the FnP.

But in reality, it's never that easy. You never know when the drop pod grey hunters come calling for weird shooting angles. IG can barrage snipe them, etc. I've whacked opposing SP several times in this manner with my mediocre-by-spacewolf-standards drop list.

Plus, you are talking about a static situation where nothing is moving. The only real clear advantage BA have left at all is fast vehicles. It's gonna be hard to keep everything within 6" of a sanguinary priest while moving around to get clear shots, etc.

FnP on an meq makes a save go from 66% to 78% on qualified weapons. Which ironically the krak missile everyone loves so much negates and your psyriflemen also negate. So, yes, the SP makes them a bit more durable, but the SP really eat into model count and by extension return throw weight.

So the BA list is losing less, but also killing less in return. But sometimes the FNP gets negated, but I'm always throwing less in return. SP are no longer a true advantage for BA, they're just kind of something we all take to pretend we have some distinctiveness that matters.

Well, you can get 3 for 150 points, they work well enough.

Martel, just play a different army if you hate BA so much.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, you can get 3 for 150 points, they work well enough.

Martel, just play a different army if you hate BA so much.

I only have the one army.

buy a vanilla codex, and call them your own chapter

Job's a good'un

Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

Martel732 wrote:
Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

You can, you just need to adjust your expectations of the army.

Sounds a lot like "suck it up and deal with it". Which I do. I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good and beating them is some kind of accomplishment.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good

How dare people be truthful and accurate?!

Honestly I'd be alright with giving Tank Hunter to more models. That still gives +1 to the damage result on vehicles right?

 greyknight12 wrote:
It makes more sense the way it is now; namely that ionized gas (superheated, and used for welding btw) would cut through armor rather efficiently whereas a blunt explosion wouldn't quite as well.

That's not at all how anti-tank missiles work. You either have the missile melt down a rod of something like copper and throw forth a literal lance of molten metal to spear/burn through the armor and kill the crew or you fire the missile which when near it's target, fires a big feth-off rod of something heavy like tungsten to punch through the armor like a tank shell at supersonic speeds. The former, HEAT rounds are lighter but contrary to what you might expect aren't quite as effective at penetrating tank armor as KE penetrators (KEPs usually home in for the top armor to boot), but KEP missiles are really big and really god damn heavy.

That being said I agree with what you say overall, as this would only mean that Long Fang spam becomes the unholy harbinger of death.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Honestly I'd be alright with giving Tank Hunter to more models. That still gives +1 to the damage result on vehicles right?

Nope, it gives a reroll to armor pen now, which is statistically better in most cases.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds a lot like "suck it up and deal with it". Which I do. I'm just sick of people claiming the BA are still good and beating them is some kind of accomplishment.

Everytime I play Blood Angels I get my silly ass stomped.

Eldercaveman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Besides, I love the BA fluff to death. Just just can't do any of it in the game anymore.

You can, you just need to adjust your expectations of the army.

Why should BA players suffer for loving the fluff? It's frustrating that you cant build a fluffy army and have it be competitive. When first getting into this game, alot of us chose based off race and fluff correct? So if you choose an army you perceive to be cool or awesome (BA were apparently awesome in 5th, I never played 5th) and they get either nerfed or negated competitively, why should the player get screwed? There should be, IMO, ways to allow armies that are in BA's "love the fluff and die or play another army" situation, to be competitive and unbroken. How about FAQing BA's fluff to work with 6th edition for one. Dropping costs and opening up shooting options. I mean, GW does a great job of getting you into your army, selling you the models, etc, etc. Then pulls the rug out from under you and says. "Sorry kid, looks like all your money and time was wasted. BUT HEY theres always this OTHER army you could play." So to all that would say, "play another army if you dont like it" YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.