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Drag wrote:
The Scout rule does not work as there is no unit call “Scouts” as it is written. The rule does not rename the unit that has the rule and there for cannot be redeployed. The RAW says “Scouts must….”, and as far as I see it there is no Scouts unit just units that have the scout rule.

I do not believe you have read the Scout special rule correctly. Perhaps you should re-read it in its entirety.

Forth sentence starts “During this……, Scouts must….” Again ill state the RAW and say there is no unit called Scouts and the rule does not say it renames the unit Scouts so the rule does not work if you want to play this RAW BS.

Drag wrote:
Forth sentence starts “During this……, Scouts must….” Again ill state the RAW and say there is no unit called Scouts and the rule does not say it renames the unit Scouts so the rule does not work if you want to play this RAW BS.

LOL I guess you missed this part again:

"After both sides have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy."

or this part

"If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment)."

The only section that starts off with Scouts is the parts that states they must remain 12" from enemy models.

Again, please re-read the rule in its entirety.

Thinking that you have not read all the post and this has become a debate about the RAW interpretation and if that is what we are using than again this rule does not work as I stated. Please read the rule and the posts and they are inferring a terminator unit has the Scout rule as per 6th edition SM codex. The Scout rule states or refers to “Scouts” and if we were to play a game of 40K and you wanted to say you could assault first turn using this interpretation of the Scout rule. I would say show me the unit of “Scouts” as per the RAW (there isn’t one) and infer that the rule does not work.

If you can prove RAW that "scout" is a unit name, then you might have a point.
If not...

Does P109 have any bearing on this situation?

Leaving aside any hypothetical vehicle with scouts the scouts rule, since P109 seems to indicate that the DT is a unit upgrade, as opposed to an actual unit in itself. This then seems to be reinforced by the P41 transferrence of special abilities. (An inference imparted by me, not explicitly spelled out in the rules}

There is also the rule on reserves in which a unit and it's DT is considered a single unit for working out how many reserves you have.

Cheers

Andrew

40k-noob wrote:

Toxium wrote:
In the scout rule on page 41, it makes reference to units not being able to disembark from a transport (dedicated or otherwise) as part of a scout redeployment.

This implies to me that both the transport and the unit in it are part of the scout redeployment and therefore not able to charge turn 1.

However, from a strict RAW viewpoint, there is certainly a grey area in which to debate.

Just my 2 cents.

Actually I think it points to the fact that they are not "scout redeploying."
By deployment rules a unit/model with Scout can deploy inside a Transport and also by rule the unit inside CANNOT Scout Redeploy even if it wanted to, because it would require a disembark which is not allowed.
This clearly indicates that the unit inside a transport is barred from redeploying.

this is because it already has. The quote tells us this.

Why would the unit inside be disallowed from disembarking if they were not redeploying? They have no permission to disembark when they are not using scout to re-deploy, the restriction is there because they are using scout to re-deploy, but are restricted from disembarking.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Toxium wrote:
In the scout rule on page 41, it makes reference to units not being able to disembark from a transport (dedicated or otherwise) as part of a scout redeployment.

This implies to me that both the transport and the unit in it are part of the scout redeployment and therefore not able to charge turn 1.

However, from a strict RAW viewpoint, there is certainly a grey area in which to debate.

Just my 2 cents.

Actually I think it points to the fact that they are not "scout redeploying."
By deployment rules a unit/model with Scout can deploy inside a Transport and also by rule the unit inside CANNOT Scout Redeploy even if it wanted to, because it would require a disembark which is not allowed.
This clearly indicates that the unit inside a transport is barred from redeploying.

this is because it already has. The quote tells us this.

Why would the unit inside be disallowed from disembarking if they were not redeploying? They have no permission to disembark when they are not using scout to re-deploy, the restriction is there because they are using scout to re-deploy, but are restricted from disembarking.

I would agree with you if it did not also apply to non DT transports. Scouts can deploy inside a Landraider if they wanted to and the Scout rule would not be conferred to the LR and still the Scouts would not be able to "Scout redeploy" out of the transport.

DR - if a non-Scout unit is deployed inside a Scout transport, you are then claiming the unit inside would be making a Scout redeploy if the vehicle does so - except they cannot, as they do not have the rule.

Is this a way of explaining it to make more sense?

Nos, a better question would be, is the unit inside part of a scout redeployment?

Cheers

Andrew

As a unit without scout is not allowed to make a scout redeployment, even it its transport is redeployed, the unit can't be part of it.

 Jidmah wrote:
As a unit without scout is not allowed to make a scout redeployment, even it its transport is redeployed, the unit can't be part of it.

What?

Are you saying that there is a rule that prevents a transport with scout from making a scout re-deploy it it contains a unit that doesn't have the scout usr?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
As a unit without scout is not allowed to make a scout redeployment, even it its transport is redeployed, the unit can't be part of it.

What?

Are you saying that there is a rule that prevents a transport with scout from making a scout re-deploy it it contains a unit that doesn't have the scout usr?

Does it matter? Is there even such thing as a non-dedicated transport with the scout rule that can carry non-scout units?

Well it would show some guidance on the issue as if you need both to have the USR then it would be an indication that both are re-deploying.

Also I'm not sure what he was saying and was looking for a clarification.

This seems to be a RAW issue. If it is than the unit inside the DT which for this discussion is a terminator unit. So by the RAW the DT would get to redeploy 12" and the unit inside which would normally only get a 6" redeployment. This implies that the DT with the unit embarked upon it is for this rules purpose is a single unit redeploying 12" as per the Scout rule.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
As a unit without scout is not allowed to make a scout redeployment, even it its transport is redeployed, the unit can't be part of it.

What?

Are you saying that there is a rule that prevents a transport with scout from making a scout re-deploy it it contains a unit that doesn't have the scout usr?

Does it matter? Is there even such thing as a non-dedicated transport with the scout rule that can carry non-scout units?

The valkyrie did this all through 5th edition, and the relevant rules have not substantially changed since then - in terms of the allowance to Scout, this has not altered between editions.

Stating the unit inside must be redeploying requires that a non-Scout unit inside a Scout unit prevents the Scout vehicle from moving. This is unsupportable in the current rules.

Drag wrote:
This seems to be a RAW issue. If it is than the unit inside the DT which for this discussion is a terminator unit. So by the RAW the DT would get to redeploy 12" and the unit inside which would normally only get a 6" redeployment. This implies that the DT with the unit embarked upon it is for this rules purpose is a single unit redeploying 12" as per the Scout rule.

If the terminators are redeploying then the DT and them can only move 6" otherwise you've not met the restriction imposed on infantry squads by the scout USR. Since the DT can move 12" then it's all grand. Also a DT and it's contents are never the same unit.

If they are not the same unit than the DT cannot redeploy 12" as per the RAW. I am emphasizing the RAW as the terminators are clearly not a vehicle but are able to redeploy 12". Why is this? It is not stated in the rule yet it is implied. But if we play by RAW the terminators could not redeploy as they are a single unit and the DT is a single unit. (Please read the rule for scout it is full of implied statements) My point is you cannot play the rules without implying or inferring many items in the current rule set.

Yes you can. It just allows something few armies have had access to in the new edition. A first turn charge.

It can't be done. Sorry.

Yes you can. It just allows something few armies have had access to in the new edition. A first turn charge.

If this interpretation is correct then Marines have been able to first turn charge from scout all through 6th as the LSS has always had scout. Everyone accepted that you couldn't and thatwas the change that turned the LSS from the best delivery system in the ggame to the worst.

TBH delivering 5 scouts isn't much of a boon for the price you're paying considering overwatch is a thing and you'd be aiming to hit fire support units.

Hell Tau could do it with pathfinders in a devilfish throughout 6th, just cos you can doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Devilfish is an assault vehicle or open topped?

Yeah 5 Scouts with flamer+heavy flamer and power fist is a threat to a lot of things. Trust me I used it through out 5th. You send it after tanks (using the flamers to remove bubble wrap) 5 man devaststor or tactical squads. Heck even against a 10man if there's no power weapon in there.

Tau have not been able to do this with Pathfinders ever. The fish is not an assault vehicle. Comparing 2 WS2, I2, S3 attacks per model with 4 Ws3, S4, I4 attacks plus 4 power fist attacks and a heavy and normal flamer, is not remotely comparable (cause you would have drop podded in Pedro and a bunch of Sternguard right).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
As a unit without scout is not allowed to make a scout redeployment, even it its transport is redeployed, the unit can't be part of it.

What?

Are you saying that there is a rule that prevents a transport with scout from making a scout re-deploy it it contains a unit that doesn't have the scout usr?

Does it matter? Is there even such thing as a non-dedicated transport with the scout rule that can carry non-scout units?

The valkyrie did this all through 5th edition, and the relevant rules have not substantially changed since then - in terms of the allowance to Scout, this has not altered between editions.

Stating the unit inside must be redeploying requires that a non-Scout unit inside a Scout unit prevents the Scout vehicle from moving. This is unsupportable in the current rules.

There's an FAQ saying that scout has no effect on them anymore . So in 6th that point is moot.

I know, which is why I was giving a pertinent example of when a unit had a vehicle with scout, without having scout themselves.

Noone seemed to think you were redeploying / making a scout move with the embarked unit.

Possibly because the restriction on 1st turn assault didn't exist in 5th?

I still think that a unit inside a scouting vehicle has taken part in a Scout Redeployment (SR). The rules are ambiguous in a couple of places as to what consititutes a unit with regard to deployment/reserves and Dedicated Transports (P109).

Now, taking part in a SR does not necessarily equate to making a SR and I readily admit that, but I think that the argument for anti-assault is stronger than the argument pro-assault.

Cheers

Andrew

No; there was quite a lot of discussion about whether the unit inside was also Scouting

Nothing in the 6th edition states they are making a Scout Redeployment, so there is no restriction placed upon them in terms of assauting.

Whether this survives a rules changing FAQ or not remains to be seen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing in the 6th edition states they are making a Scout Redeployment...

Except the quote I posted.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing in the 6th edition states they are making a Scout Redeployment...

Except the quote I posted.

It doesn't actually say that though. I can tell because there's nothing like the words "embarked units count as redeploying" or anything like that.