Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

delete

Good question.
My Ravenguard wants to know the same thing.

Surely models outside of their deployment zone before the 1st turn starts have made a scout move, whether in a vehicle or not

delete

IMO, no, because the rule doesn't state that the unit has to 'move' only that they had to have made a scout redeployment. Ergo, they were in a vehicle that made a redeployment, then they too made a redeployment.

YMMV

Cheers

Andrew

delete

There was a decision in the last FaQ I looked at which asked if the unit inside was subject to any special rules that the vehicle was subject to.

Now I fully admit that this was asked about stunned and shaken results, hence the IMO and YMMV caveats. But the implications have been pretty apparent for this edition, no 1st turn assaults.

Let me ask you this question, has the unit of terminators been moved on the board as a result of the scouts special rule?

Cheers

Andrew

 aidobmac wrote:
How does being in the vehicle that made the scout move count as the embarked unit making the scout move.

(I'm not trying to be a pain i just want something i can go from, so thanks for the responses thus far! )

In the same way a unit in a deep striking drop pod counts as having arrived by deep strike.

Yeah, I'd say definitely no way: GW made every attempt to deny 1st turn charges, I don't think shifting the rules here would be even slightly allowable. You can try it, but I don't see your game with anybody lasting past your attempt at it.

delete

Avoid the drop pod its clear.

The question is: is disembarking separate from deployment and in this case scout movement.


This area is grey, you may have support by RAW due to no specific mention that the unit inside is affected by the Scout Move USR if the transport is the one who did it.

But the majority of the player base would say that RAI is that no you can't.

If a transport moves, do the troops inside count as moving for shooting purposes and such? Yes, so why would they not count as scout moving?

 MikeFox wrote:
If a transport moves, do the troops inside count as moving for shooting purposes and such? Yes, so why would they not count as scout moving?

Because there's no such thing as a scout move.

 MikeFox wrote:
If a transport moves, do the troops inside count as moving for shooting purposes and such? Yes, so why would they not count as scout moving?

Because it specifically says they count as moving when disembarking. It does not specifically say they count as using scout redeploy.

The unit inside did not scout, the transport did. The terminators can assault. This is RAW. RAI does not hold up in any tournament I have ever been to nor has it held up in any friendly game I've ever played or seen played. People who argue RAI IMHO are trying to bend the rules to what they want them to be, not what they are. This is called home grown, which is fine, but not for everyone.

On a side note, some one asked about Raven Guard. There is no possible way to give scout to a Land Raider in a Raven Guard army. Trust me, a friend and I went unit by unit trying to figure out what Raven Guard actually does. The answer is close to nothing. Raven Guard is easily the worst Chapter Tactic IMHO.

Fair enough, until an FAQ comes along.

I will argue that no the terminators are affected by the scout move. There already is a similar FAQ stating that if a land raider comes in from outflank that the people inside can't assault. This is identical to that situation minus it's on the board first turn. Technically the people inside the land raider didn't come in the vehicle did.

icefire78 wrote:
I will argue that no the terminators are affected by the scout move. There already is a similar FAQ stating that if a land raider comes in from outflank that the people inside can't assault. This is identical to that situation minus it's on the board first turn. Technically the people inside the land raider didn't come in the vehicle did.

Not true. The unit inside also arrived from Reserve this turn, you just didn't have to roll separately for it - you only rolled for the transport.

Well technically the vehicle didn't make the scout move. The Terminators granted the vehicle the ability to make the scout move by conferring scout upon it for being a dedicated transport. So technically the terminators are still the scout, whole nother ballgame if the vehicle itself had scout from the get go

 Sothas wrote:
On a side note, some one asked about Raven Guard. There is no possible way to give scout to a Land Raider in a Raven Guard army. Trust me, a friend and I went unit by unit trying to figure out what Raven Guard actually does. The answer is close to nothing. Raven Guard is easily the worst Chapter Tactic IMHO.

And if you join an IC with the unit? i.e. a Captain with Assault Terminators, inside a Land Raider, before deploy. Wouldn't that give Scouts to the unit, therefore to the LR (as a DT to termies) - letting it make a Scout redeploy/outflank?

Saw such idea in another forum. But yeah, Khan letting DTs to get Scouts... man! If Shrike gave Infiltrate to Jump Units as an USR (instead to only a unit he joins), his expensive cost would be quite okay.

How about something along the lines of ...

The dt and its passenger unit are two distinct units.
I can measure to/from both the vehicle and the passengers, therefore I know where they both are.

If I only redeploy the vehicle, that means I didn't redeploy the passengers and if I don't, I can still measure to where they are.

The passengers can't disembark, so I am forced to redeploy the transported unit because I know where it was and is = no assault due to scout redeploy.

I don't get it. If you deepstrike via a transport the unit still classed as arriving by deepstrike. Why would scouting via a transport not be deploying via scout.

icefire78 wrote:Well technically the vehicle didn't make the scout move. The Terminators granted the vehicle the ability to make the scout move by conferring scout upon it for being a dedicated transport. So technically the terminators are still the scout, whole nother ballgame if the vehicle itself had scout from the get go

Well, no - the Land Raider redeployed (stop calling it a move). It has Scout.

Nem wrote:I don't get it. If you deepstrike via a transport the unit still classed as arriving by deepstrike. Why would scouting via a transport not be deploying via scout.

Because Deep Strike has a specific rule saying so. Scout doesnt. Get it now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fuusa wrote:
How about something along the lines of ...

The dt and its passenger unit are two distinct units.
I can measure to/from both the vehicle and the passengers, therefore I know where they both are.

If I only redeploy the vehicle, that means I didn't redeploy the passengers and if I don't, I can still measure to where they are.

The passengers can't disembark, so I am forced to redeploy the transported unit because I know where it was and is = no assault due to scout redeploy.

You can't measure to the embarked unit - you can only measure to the hull of the vehicle.
If you redeploy the vehicle that's all you did.
Since the only deployment the embarked unit has done was being put in the tank and they were not redeployed...

Put it this way: play that scout shenanigans against me, and it's the last time we would play. Seems pretty clear to me that the unit scouted if they're inside their DT

 Homeskillet wrote:
Put it this way: play that scout shenanigans against me, and it's the last time we would play. Seems pretty clear to me that the unit scouted if they're inside their DT

Same here.

What's the point of looking for rules loopholes? GW doesn't hide easter eggs in the rules for the benefit of particularly creative readers. Your're not being a better player by abusing poor wording. If it's obviously an unintentional omission, treat it that way.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Put it this way: play that scout shenanigans against me, and it's the last time we would play. Seems pretty clear to me that the unit scouted if they're inside their DT

Put it this way: Your personal feelings have literally zero to do with how the rules are currently written.
The rules currently allow this to work. I don't think it's intended, but that's how they work.
Perhaps read the tenets of the forum before responding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
If it's obviously an unintentional omission, treat it that way.

Prove that it's obvious. I don't think it's obvious at all.

A unit that deepstrikes via a mycetic spore...

....

The unit has still counts as deploying via deepstrike, even though the spore was utilising the deployment method, not the unit?

 Nem wrote:

A unit that deepstrikes via a mycetic spore...

....

The unit has still counts as deploying via deepstrike, even though the spore was utilising the deployment method, not the unit?

Because there's specific rules saying so. There's nothing like that for Scout.

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:
How about something along the lines of ...

The dt and its passenger unit are two distinct units.
I can measure to/from both the vehicle and the passengers, therefore I know where they both are.

If I only redeploy the vehicle, that means I didn't redeploy the passengers and if I don't, I can still measure to where they are.

The passengers can't disembark, so I am forced to redeploy the transported unit because I know where it was and is = no assault due to scout redeploy.

You can't measure to the embarked unit - you can only measure to the hull of the vehicle.
If you redeploy the vehicle that's all you did.
Since the only deployment the embarked unit has done was being put in the tank and they were not redeployed...

That's not what p78 says.

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull."

Note that you are measuring a range involving the unit aboard the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. This is simply an abstraction that allows the passenger units location to be measured to/from.
Furthermore, it even allows measurement to an individual model, in the case of "bubble effects" that function from within a transport, for eg. emanating from a single model, that is considered to occupy the footprint of the vehicle.

For many of these effects, you are required to measure from/to models and that is what the abstraction is for.

So, lets say I wanted to plot where upon the table all of my units were, in games terms on a graph, I could. I would have 2 units at point x/y.
If, after I do that, I redeploy the vehicle and I plot the location of it and its passengers, I have another point x/y.

Demonstrably, the location of both of these entirely separate units has changed.

Edit, removed an error.

 fuusa wrote:
No-where, afaiaa, in the rules are we told that if a transport redeploys, the passengers have not.
If the passengers start demonstrably at location 1, then subsequently equally demonstrably end up at location 2, how did this happen?
Redeployment of them both.

The bolded is incorrect.
You re-deployed one. The fact that the other is embarked is irrelevant.

Eldrad can re-deploy vehicles as well. Have you argued in the past that embarked units count toward his limit? (If I'm remembering his rule correctly)

rigeld2 wrote:

icefire78 wrote:Well technically the vehicle didn't make the scout move. The Terminators granted the vehicle the ability to make the scout move by conferring scout upon it for being a dedicated transport. So technically the terminators are still the scout, whole nother ballgame if the vehicle itself had scout from the get go

Well, no - the Land Raider redeployed (stop calling it a move). It has Scout.

Nem wrote:I don't get it. If you deepstrike via a transport the unit still classed as arriving by deepstrike. Why would scouting via a transport not be deploying via scout.

Because Deep Strike has a specific rule saying so. Scout doesnt. Get it now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fuusa wrote:
How about something along the lines of ...

The dt and its passenger unit are two distinct units.
I can measure to/from both the vehicle and the passengers, therefore I know where they both are.

If I only redeploy the vehicle, that means I didn't redeploy the passengers and if I don't, I can still measure to where they are.

The passengers can't disembark, so I am forced to redeploy the transported unit because I know where it was and is = no assault due to scout redeploy.

You can't measure to the embarked unit - you can only measure to the hull of the vehicle.
If you redeploy the vehicle that's all you did.
Since the only deployment the embarked unit has done was being put in the tank and they were not redeployed...

I agree with rigeld2 for the same reasons he is giving.