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 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn

Right there, you've said it yourself.
You're using it's ability to grant a special rule.
Whether that special rule is used then and there is irrelevant. The ability to grant it has been used, and at the start if the turn, violating a rule.

@grendel083
So psykers also can't generate Warp Charges the turn they come in from reserves?

You may want to respond to the whole post instead of just one line of it.

The Psyker issue has been raised and address previously. I felt no need to do so again.

Also you're actively choosing a special rule from a list. This hardly makes it "passive". Quite the opposite.

Sorry, but I can't find the exception in the book for generating Warp Charges when arriving from reserves.

Can you send me the page number?

 Nilok wrote:
Sorry, but I can't find the exception in the book for generating Warp Charges when arriving from reserves.
Can you send me the page number?

First, it one could argue that that generating Warp charge is not actually using an ability: as BRB said "There is no need to do anything - it happens automatically". Note that this argument is unnecessary though, as there is extremely strong implication for the exception being in place on page 67:

brb page 67 wrote: On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase.

If Psykers didn't generate warp charges at all when arriving from Reserve, they would have written that instead.

So your argument goes to the "models without eyes cannot draw LOS for shooting" category. Technically it might be correct, but good luck finding anyone who actually plays it that way.

Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

AFAIK sm chapter tactics isn't a unit activating an ability, it's you activating an ability for your army (well, that detachment). Not comparable. Next.

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

 Nem wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

Do they work the turn you arrive from reserves? If so, why? (Aimed at the ones disagreeing)

Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Just for curiosity, and because I'm at work and can't look:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should of clarified: that happen at the start of the movement phase.

SM Chapter Tactics.

They are chosen at the start of the turn, the unit doesn't need anything, but the units have the chapter tactics rule.

Do they work the turn you arrive from reserves? If so, why? (Aimed at the ones disagreeing)

rigeld2 wrote:AFAIK sm chapter tactics isn't a unit activating an ability, it's you activating an ability for your army (well, that detachment). Not comparable. Next.

It's like I already responded or something...

I should clarify at least one of the tactics is a choice between x and y at the beginning of each turn, don't have the book open in fronts of me to know if they all do but it has been brought up on Dakka briefly before


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chapter tactics are unit rules, while shared across the army the unit holds the rule allowing you to benefit from them. The only difference between PEN and the tactics is the choice for tactics can affect many units (as many have the rule) while PEN can only effect the one unit (as the one unit has the rule allowing them to benefit from it). On a unit by unit basis, there is no difference in the workings of PEN and Chapter Tactics.

 Nem wrote:
I should clarify at least one of the tactics is a choice between x and y at the beginning of each turn, don't have the book open in fronts of me to know if they all do but it has been brought up on Dakka briefly before

Looking at them right now, I don't see any unit activated rules.

Chapter tactics are unit rules, while shared across the army the unit holds the rule allowing you to benefit from them. The only difference between PEN and the tactics is the choice for tactics can affect many units (as many have the rule) while PEN can only effect the one unit (as the one unit has the rule allowing them to benefit from it)

Which is a massive difference - it's the difference between the unit using the ability (you know, what page 125 denies) and the detachment using an ability (page 125 is silent on).
Sweeping that under the rug doesn't do your argument any justice.

You might be thinking of the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic.
This is chosen for the whole detachment however, not units.

So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

"At the beginning of the movement phase the Psyker generates warp charges"
"At the start of turn 2 if a unit is in reserves roll to see if it comes on the field"
"At the beginning of the movement phase High King So and So chooses a USR" (which we know from the FAQ that he gets to use in the ensuing Shooting and or Assault phase).
"At the beginning of the bearers movement phase choose a USR"

These are all examples of rules of actions that we have to perform, we do not have a choice they are all automatic. Why then can a psycher generate his warp charges even though he just deepstruck and can't use abilities that have to be used at the start of movement phase, or the High King can use his ability to choose a USR, or why we are not allowed to delay rolling for reserves but we can't choose a USR that we are told we have to by the codex?

Doesnt a psyker start the game with as many warp charges as he has mastery level?

If so, say a SM librarian in power armor deep striking on turn 2 would have 2 warp charges no matter what.

And unless I'm mistaken you cannot have more warp charges than you have mastery level, so the libby not being able to generate warp charges on turn 2 wouldnt matter at all.

A Psyker generates Warp Charges equal to its mastery level at the start of the turn.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
What are some other "activated" abilities that require no dice rolls, and no target. I'm sure there are some but am drawing a blank.

The "Liber Heresius" wargear in the new mini Codex: Inquisition.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

What makes the PEN an ability that the model is using?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

Sounds like the PEN and all your arguments against it.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
So a unit may use the chapter tactic special rule after reserves but not the PEN.

No. Units do not use Chapter Tactics. They benefit when you use them, but that's not the same thing.

You right that the chapter tactic still goes off for the army. But by the definition everyone here has been using, since chapter tactics are a special rule, the unit arriving from reserves couldn't use them, though the rest of the army could.

The arriving unit does not use a Chapter Tactics no matter how many times you say they do.

Sounds like the PEN and all your arguments against it.

... No, it's nothing like the PEN. One is unit based, one is detachment based. Glossing over that is ignorant at best.

Text removed.

Reds8n

Such a loss. Although, that's probably not the right word - I'm sorry for offending you.

Glossing over that difference after it's been pointed out is disingenuous.

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.

I know what you were trying to say, but your statement here proved yourself wrong.

Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.

Can you show me the rule that lets me NOT generate a warp charge. There is no choice in the matter.

PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear

Again your proving your stance to be false. PEN gives you the ability to choose a special rule at the start of the turn. You cannot use that ability the turn you arrive from reserves.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

At the start of the Bearer's movement phase = At the start of the turn, so again you show your position incorrect.

It gives me the ability which I use to grant the unit a special rule.... ... that is different from the unit using an ability or special rule.

*****

I agree Chapter tactics, the decision is made for the detachment. But the benefit is granted by the chapter tactics rule the unit has.If they benefit from the choice via the special rule the unit has, is the unit using a special rule? Of course its all semantics, but if there's no difference in the player using an ability to grant a special rule to the unit and the unit using an ability, then semantics are out of the window. Sure, how can the unit gain benefit from the decision without using the chapter tactics special rule?

The thing is, there *is* a difference between a unit using a special rule and you using a special rule.

It's in the sentence I just used in case you were wondering.

I believe a major contention is the wording of the PEN.

The PEN reads.

At the start of your Movement phase, choose a special rule...
This model has that rule until his next Movement phase.

The pro-side reads this as at the start of 'your' (the player's) movement phase, choose a rule. because the rule refers to two subjects, your (the player) and his (the model).

The con-side reads this as both subjects talking about the model, is this correct?

 Nilok wrote:
I believe a major contention is the wording of the PEN.

The PEN reads.

At the start of your Movement phase, choose a special rule...
This model has that rule until his next Movement phase.

The pro-side reads this as at the start of 'your' (the player's) movement phase, choose a rule. because the rule refers to two subjects, your (the player) and his (the model).

The con-side reads this as both subjects talking about the model, is this correct?

I dont know what the con-side thinks but i as someone who thinks the PEN wouldnt work would say yes thats part of the issue. Regarding the chapter tactis in this context the main difference is that chapter tactics is a special rule for your detachment while the PEN is a piece of wargear on a model in the unit. So the PEN grants a special rule when its ability is used to the unit. Why wouldnt the unit be using it when it is their piece of wargear that only grants something to them?

There is only one movement phase per turn. Player's or model's, it can still only refer to the same thing, there aren't separate phases.