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2014/01/15 22:16:43
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
cant horde it up, cant really get fast enough with the normal marines... too expensive for the land raider...
I would THEORY craft that WS bike armies could be pretty good as somthing that utilizes CC to its potential, but have not tried it out so much, so cant really say if they do well on the table
but, in dexes like *new*NIDS, ORKS< GK< DE, there are some VERY viable CC builds, trust me.
for DE specifically, you can spam really cheap CC units in assault transports, backed up by things like dark lances
so that you can overwhelm the enemy, take out key units/vehicles and get turn 2 charge with enough of your forces to make it count. lots of access to poisen and combat drugs and some other nifty combos make it a very good army for CC minded people, the basic CC stuff in DE will still kill other units, and heck, you dont want them to steam roll over them, as taking two turns in combat to kill them is actually better as it prevents you from being shot.
lots of stuff besides wyches that are usefull, someone already brought up beast masters and grotesques.
basically, fill up as many transports as you can with decent CC guys, ensure you are controlling the table properly/using terrain properly/moving your guys in a way as to mitigate the turn or two of fire you WILL be taking, and once your in CC you will start rolling over guys.
to almightwalrus's above post,
my full GK list is in the GK tactics thread if you can find it, simply put: coteaz + another div rolling INQ if points allow, bolter henchmen for troops, maxxed interceptors w psybolts and jump DK's,
so in 1500pts or less, I can have 9 shunting units with 54 " of table to threaten, from any direction I want, and 42" of table that can be assaulted turn 2 guaranteed, again from pretty much any direction I want... as jump units they ignore terrain on the charge usually (check your FAQ) + HoW hits do wonders against high I low armor stuff like eldar.. krak grenades and str 5 st bolters take out lots... the DK's take out the rest in CC
I think thats also one thing you guys might be missing for why my INT's last so long, the opponent really has a lot of stuff right in their face (but not in 2x tap range, pre measure and put things juuust out of 2x tap) so generally they are focusing on the DK's turn one, not the INT's.
martel/evil just put each other on ignore, or just take it to PM's... kinda cluttering up the thread here guys...
for the OP in case he missed it as the thread is getting quite cluttered
ciable CCDE:
cheap assault transports, that have decent shooting. lots of them
lots and lots of cheap small units to charge out of them
take enough so that you can lose half, and still have 3-4 left to charge with.
darklances to take out some key vehicles, or haywire on some of the CC units, Ill go through the codex some more for specific combos, but that is what I would use as a starting point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 22:22:09
2014/01/15 22:22:28
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Nice to know the CC advocate admits that meqCC is poor.
"so in 1500pts or less, I can have 9 shunting units with 54 " of table to threaten, from any direction I want, and 42" of table that can be assaulted turn 2 guaranteed, again from pretty much any direction I want... as jump units they ignore terrain on the charge usually (check your FAQ) + HoW hits do wonders against high I low armor stuff like eldar.. krak grenades and str 5 st bolters take out lots... the DK's take out the rest in CC "
Fine. Add this to the list with Screamerstar, Jeetseer Council, and FMC circus. Now we have "Shunt cheese". And it's specific to GK codex. FML.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 22:26:58
2014/01/15 22:24:12
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
I'm not seeing how AV10 open-topped vehicles are going to live any meaningful amount of time at all (and once they die, so do the units inside from the explosion). They were known as paper airplanes in 5th edition, and 6th edition wasn't exactly kind to vehicle survivability.
Beastpacks and allied Seerstar could probably work (or, well, in the case of Beastpacks, Seerstars are good, if weak to certain matchups), but I'd still put everything else into shooting. With the amount of poisoned anti-infantry shooting Dark Eldar can put out you're going to do more damage that way than through CC.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2014/01/15 22:26:25
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
No one claimed otherwise. Thats the bad part about being a jack of all trades, you usually end up master of none. MEQs sufer from that.
Easysauce, I've asked MANY times that they take their personal issues with me out of threads and i nto PM or just set me to ignore if they cant interact politely. It DOES clutter up the threads.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
yeah AW, they die fast, thats why you take 6-10+ in a 1500pt game, and assume half will die in one turn if you go 2nd.
the same issues you see with them as assault vehicles, would still be there for them as venom poisen spam shooters, and we all know the latter is pretty powerfull... you still get most of the best parts of venom spam with CC troops inside them as well.
so its, not really as much of an issue as you would think, even with so much stuff able to knock em down.
if you get turn one, you almost auto win, as your across the board already with one flat out.
if you get turn two, so long as you do everything you are supposed to to mitigate the fire they take, you still have a good shot at getting half of it into CC
2014/01/15 22:33:40
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Yes, you cant half do it. With that, you pretty much have to go all out. Provide the enemy so many targets that they cant deal with them all. Invariable, they will end up splitting their shots up amongst them and thus weakening their shooting and playing into your hands. Multiple threats all at once. Combine that with proper placement of terrain and use of it to block LOS to man of their units...
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
easysauce wrote: yeah AW, they die fast, thats why you take 6-10+ in a 1500pt game, and assume half will die in one turn if you go 2nd.
the same issues you see with them as assault vehicles, would still be there for them as venom poisen spam shooters, and we all know the latter is pretty powerfull... you still get most of the best parts of venom spam with CC troops inside them as well.
Except you don't. You have more mobility when using them as shooting, as you don't have to get as close. Further, you can engage the enemy sooner and in a more concentrated manner, as you'll be attacking from a distance.
If you're going for a melee attack, you'll, as you say, have to turbo-boost everything and then hope the enemy doesn't blow you to pieces with everything you're now in range off. While shooty Venoms are just as fragile as melee delivering Venoms, they don't have to get into range of every source of small-arms fire in the enemy army, and can start contributing to damage earlier.
Further, while being inside an exploding Venom is bad news for DE infantry, being OUTSIDE is worse. You get out of your Venoms, charge whatever the enemy decided to place closest to you (because the rest is blocked off) and then one of three things happen:
1. You win combat overwhelmingly, wiping the enemy out either through sheer killing force or sweeping advance. You're now stood in the open surrounded by the entire enemy army. Have fun with those 6+ armour saves.
2. You don't win combat overwhelmingly, or if you do the enemy doesn't break, meaning you stay locked in combat. The enemy moves away from the combat while engaging your transports, probably blasting most them to tiny pieces. If you win combat on their turn you get to charge something next turn. What you get to charge is decided by your opponent, who decides where he moves his units.
3. As above, except instead of just moving away and shooting at other things the enemy also decides to counter-charge you with either something disposable and fearless/stubborn (Plague Zombies, Termagants, any Daemon unit) or a shooting unit that is good enough at melee to murder you (Wraithknights, Dakkafexes, Plague Marines). Either they kill you or they lock you up for long enough to effectively neuter your killing power.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2014/01/15 23:18:15
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
AW.. dude, there is literally 0 ways around being shot at for at least one turn...
if they can shoot 10 venoms that are 18" away to death, they can shoot 10 venoms that are 23" away to death... literally 0 difference... you dont NEED to flat out most of the time for the turn 2 charge, i just offered that as a solution because you seem so damn worried about speed bumps, and flat outing gets waaaay around the sides of that.
you will take casualties, thats a given, but no you wont lose 10 venoms first turn to someone who hasnt tailored specifically to your army.. remember its DE.. you get night fight on TOP of your DE venom cover saves
thats why you have so many of the damn things, you only need half to get through...
even tau with basic troops having str 5 is going to be hard pressed to take out 10+ venoms in one go,at such a low pts game, they get really good cover saves and are small enough to hide completely out of LOS lots of the time.
they need one unit per venom, barring armies of split fire... which dont really exist,
also keep in mind that a shooting army is going to be shot at just as much as a CC army, provided you are smart about NOT putting yourself into 2x tap range needlessly, if not more as turn 3 onwards, you are STILL getting shot, instead of being in CC tying up their best shooting units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 23:19:27
2014/01/15 23:41:42
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
easysauce wrote: AW.. dude, there is literally 0 ways around being shot at for at least one turn...
Exactly. When you've got paper-thin armour, you want to hit the enemy first, not expose yourself to a round of fire and then hit back with what you've got left.
Tau have 15" Rapid Fire, so you're either staying at 21.1"+ to avoid getting shot or you take on average 2 Hull Points worth of damage from a 10-man Fire Warrior squad, even with 3+ cover. Stuff like HYMP Broadsides, who conveniently ignore Night Fighting, will do nasty things to their targets, and HBC Riptides will do the same. This isn't even factoring in Markerlights or Ignores Cover Commanders. Two 10-man units of Fire Warriors, a Riptide and a unit of HYMP Broadsides would reliably kill four of your 10 transports on turn 1. You then get to choose between charging a screen of Kroots or standing around for another turn of fire.
Versus Eldar it's your AV10 2HP open-topped transports against Wave Serpents. I agree that shooting isn't going to fare very well against them either, but at least you'd have a chance of doing damage. You're not catching Wave Serpents in CC.
Bikes of any type can shoot you from 24" and generally keep away until your transports go down. Twin-linked Overwatch also has a chance of downing your charge ranges.
IG put out 12530164239164239564213 prescienced shots, some of them potentially including Ignores Cover if they get the correct psychic power for it. If they bring Vendettas (and why would they not?) you'll have your Heavy Support and nothing else to go after them.
Necrons will absolutely murder you. You can't reliably deal with their aircraft with a shooting DE army, a melee-centric one is going to have a snowball's chance in hell.
Daemons have stuff putting out 6D6 S6 shots and are an army of higher-initiative-than-DE blendermonsters who can still shoot.
Orks put out an ungodly number of shots on Overwatch and have Lootas who eradicate one unit a turn.
Tyranids are hard-countered by shooty Venom Spam simply keeping away from them and drowning them in wounds. Assaulting 'Nids as Dark Eldar is suicide, and prevents you from shooting them to boot.
CSM have things like Plague Marines, Beatstick Lords, and Noise Marines who can generally handle Dark Eldar in CC while still being tremenduously shooty.
Grey Knights will absolutely murder you anyway, the best chance you've got is the alpha strike, which you won't get through CC.
Any other MEQ faction would rather you assaulted them than simply removed them from the board in a deluge of poisoned shooting.
And so on, and so forth.
The entire strength in Dark Eldar lies, as you've correctly identified, in mobility, but NOT in CC mobility. You want the alpha strike to reduce the return fire against your fragile glass cannons. By standing around with suboptimal firepower for a turn you're wasting that chance, instead letting your opponent bring his firepower to bear on you. When you through your excellent speed can decide what gets to engage what, giving that up in order to send mostly mediocre, paper-thin CC units into the enemy is folly. Even if it works, it's blatantly inferior to traditional shooty Venom spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 23:42:37
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2014/01/15 23:49:51
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
1. Yes, most of the DE units only have a 6+ save in the open like wyches. However there are other CC oriented units as well: Grots and Wracks (also 6+) that get FNP at the start which, just running the numbers, is pretty close to having a 4+ save on average.
Incubi have a 3+ and Khymera have a 4++. Both before you apply any tokens you might get along the way. So, again, it depends on what you are hitting and what you are hitting it with.
2. I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this. That's the way it's always been. Also, sometimes you want to stay locked depending on what you are hitting.
3. Ditto.
CC, just like shooting, will have a particular goal depending on the situation. Sometimes you want to wipe that unit. Sometimes you just want to speed bump it to protect something else. Sometimes you want to effectively pin it in place.
These are tactical goals that all have their place and are all viable in 6th edition. Which, I believe, is what the entire original post was about.
------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
2014/01/15 23:59:42
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Indeed it is. We have more than shown that Close combat is alive and well and that it is viable for units that are good at it to be included in an army.
Additionally, we also proven that there are times in games that assault or close combat is the way to go even if your unit is not tailered for it in order to win a game.
in an army that has the speed and mobility of dark eldar, our case is made even more crystal clear.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Evil inc you keep saying "we" have "proven" and "shown" assault is alive yet you provide zero proof or examples. You should stop clogging this thread with heresay. It's annoying.
Solid Fists 2000 wip
2014/01/16 00:13:10
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
easysauce wrote: AW.. dude, there is literally 0 ways around being shot at for at least one turn...
Exactly. When you've got paper-thin armour, you want to hit the enemy first, not expose yourself to a round of fire and then hit back with what you've got left.
Tau have 15" Rapid Fire, so you're either staying at 21.1"+ to avoid getting shot or you take on average 2 Hull Points worth of damage from a 10-man Fire Warrior squad, even with 3+ cover. Stuff like HYMP Broadsides, who conveniently ignore Night Fighting, will do nasty things to their targets, and HBC Riptides will do the same. This isn't even factoring in Markerlights or Ignores Cover Commanders. Two 10-man units of Fire Warriors, a Riptide and a unit of HYMP Broadsides would reliably kill four of your 10 transports on turn 1. You then get to choose between charging a screen of Kroots or standing around for another turn of fire. get this whole "i have to charge the absolute stupidest thing to charge in their army" idea out of your head..you can fly over or around anything in their army, and have a 14"-24" assault range... at the point level when DE ONLY have 10 venoms, the other player is not getting everything in their codex. you just said it yourself, they will reliably kill 4-5 transports turn one, then I get to charge 5-6 units into whatever I have positioned myself to do so.
Versus Eldar it's your AV10 2HP open-topped transports against Wave Serpents. I agree that shooting isn't going to fare very well against them either, but at least you'd have a chance of doing damage. You're not catching Wave Serpents in CC.again, 10 venoms is not a lot pts wize, at this kind of low pts, DE still have things like lances, but yes, serpent spam is basically a hard counter to venom spam as its all str 6 ignores cover... so? DECC does not have to beat the most brokenest of broken units, which happens to be a HARD counter for it, to be considered "viable" now does it? everything is supposed to have hard counters to balance the game (not that WS are balanced)
I cut the rest out as its really just problems with av 10 in general, which there are plenty
that all really sounds more like "this is why DE suck" or "av 10 vehicles have 0 use" talk to me,
again, none of the armies you listed have all that you said they do are going to have on the table 10 venoms is CHEAP... like sub 1200 pts cheap.
your opponent wont have as many "anti venom units" as you will have venoms... look at the pts value of every counter you just listed, is it more, or less (WS include troops inside, its a tax) then the cost of one venom with cc troops inside?
* Nightfall Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
* Darkness Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
those venoms, with troops, are REALLY cheap
sure tau and eldar do particularly well against av 10 with st 5 spam and WS no cover str 6 spam... but they will also wreck your av 10 shooty army... at least if you get 1st turn with the CC one you have a decent chance stuff will get into combat where its needed and do what it needs to do while tying up the enemies shooting in their phase, and protecting your units from shooting...
not a certain thing against those hard match ups, but nothing in a game of dice is certain,
I would call it viable however
should be noted that shooting wise, venom spam with warriors inside, is prety much identical to venoms spam with other stuff in side considering you can give haywire grenades to CC dudes.. except the CC spam is cheaper per venom...
and yes some armies you want to soften up at 26-36" with the venoms + lances before going for it,
again tactics, some armies you face you dont need/want to get into cc asap
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 00:19:57
2014/01/16 00:16:51
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Jano, you need to read through the thread. It iscrammed full of proof. Unless you are also of the sort that simply skips over and refuses to read anything that you disagree with. Now try to stay on topic eh?
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
that all really sounds more like "this is why DE suck" or "av 10 vehicles have 0 use" talk to me,
again, none of the armies you listed have all that you said they do are going to have on the table 10 venoms is CHEAP... like sub 1200 pts cheap.
your opponent wont have as many "anti venom units" as you will have venoms... look at the pts value of every counter you just listed, is it more, or less (WS include troops inside, its a tax) then the cost of one venom with cc troops inside?
* Nightfall Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
* Darkness Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
those venoms, with troops, are REALLY cheap
10 Fire Warriors are 90 points. 10 Kroot to block your charging for a turn is 70 points. 5 Marine Bikers with 2x Grav is 120 points. 20 Guardsmen with two Autocannons are 120 points. Even if you reach CC with some of your units, is it going to be enough to murder your way through most of the opposing army? Above all else, is it going to be enough to do more damage than the shooting build?
* Nightfall Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
* Darkness Constructs; 5 Wracks w/ Dual Poison Weapons. Mounted in a Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. [115]
those venoms, with troops, are REALLY cheap
Yep. You'll also only get 6 before running out of FoC.
EVIL INC wrote: Indeed it is. We have more than shown that Close combat is alive and well and that it is viable for units that are good at it to be included in an army.
Additionally, we also proven that there are times in games that assault or close combat is the way to go even if your unit is not tailered for it in order to win a game.
Yes, good job. It's a shame that no one was arguing the opposite, but well done anyway!
1. Yes, most of the DE units only have a 6+ save in the open like wyches. However there are other CC oriented units as well: Grots and Wracks (also 6+) that get FNP at the start which, just running the numbers, is pretty close to having a 4+ save on average.
Assuming that whatever is shooting at you doesn't have AP6 or better. It helps against explosions, yes, but then you're stuck on foot halfway across the board.
2. I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this. That's the way it's always been. Also, sometimes you want to stay locked depending on what you are hitting.
Yes, and it's always been one of the weaknesses of close combat. You do not decide what you have the opportunity of charging. Your opponent does. Have fun slaughtering Kroot, that Riptide you were after is going to move away from you while killing something else. Once you've killed your first sacrificial unit you're on foot and no longer have the mobility granted by the Venom.
The enemy can't lock you from shooting, except by killing you. He can tie up your mega-murder squad with junk for a couple of turns and make it inconsequential. If you're killy enough to get through, you'd have murdered whatever you charged and thus reverted to point 1 above.
CC, just like shooting, will have a particular goal depending on the situation. Sometimes you want to wipe that unit. Sometimes you just want to speed bump it to protect something else. Sometimes you want to effectively pin it in place.
These are tactical goals that all have their place and are all viable in 6th edition. Which, I believe, is what the entire original post was about.
We're probably using different variations on the word "viable". Could a melee-centric Dark Eldar list be made that could win games? Absolutely, and if that's what the OP wants then more power to him. I just want him to be aware that a shooty list is going to be better equipped than that melee list to take on the strongest builds of other Codices. Such a DE melee list would lose most of the time when played against a competent Taudar, Tau/Tau, Eldar, Necron, or similar player of equal skill and while the same may be true for Venom spam, it would stand a much better chance and as such be the closest thing to a viable list that Dark Eldar can field.
A better example to illustrate the viable vs. non-viable is Codex: Space Marines. It's an army that has several viable builds, but melee really only features in them in the form of bike Chapter Masters taken because they're required to unlock bikes as troops and because they can tank for one squad. They go into melee if they get an opportune opening, but the viable archetypes are predominantly shooting. Then there's people like me who are stubborn and refuse to play a shooting-centric list. I'm well aware that my list probably isn't viable, e.g. it can't reliably fight Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons, but I play it anyway because I like CC. As such, the shooting lists are the viable lists, while CC lists aren't viable. That doesn't mean that you can't get the melee lists to work, only that if you put the same effort into a shooting list you'd do better.
easysauce wrote: AW.. dude, there is literally 0 ways around being shot at for at least one turn...
Exactly. When you've got paper-thin armour, you want to hit the enemy first, not expose yourself to a round of fire and then hit back with what you've got left.
Tau have 15" Rapid Fire, so you're either staying at 21.1"+ to avoid getting shot or you take on average 2 Hull Points worth of damage from a 10-man Fire Warrior squad, even with 3+ cover. Stuff like HYMP Broadsides, who conveniently ignore Night Fighting, will do nasty things to their targets, and HBC Riptides will do the same. This isn't even factoring in Markerlights or Ignores Cover Commanders. Two 10-man units of Fire Warriors, a Riptide and a unit of HYMP Broadsides would reliably kill four of your 10 transports on turn 1. You then get to choose between charging a screen of Kroots or standing around for another turn of fire. get this whole "i have to charge the absolute stupidest thing to charge in their army" idea out of your head..you can fly over or around anything in their army, and have a 14"-24" assault range... at the point level when DE ONLY have 10 venoms, the other player is not getting everything in their codex. you just said it yourself, they will reliably kill 4-5 transports turn one, then I get to charge 5-6 units into whatever I have positioned myself to do so.
And if the only thing you get to position to charge is Kroot you get to choose between the Kroot or nothing. That's my entire point. You CAN'T fly over stuff on the charge with your Infantry, so if there's a unit between you and your target you're outta luck.
Versus Eldar it's your AV10 2HP open-topped transports against Wave Serpents. I agree that shooting isn't going to fare very well against them either, but at least you'd have a chance of doing damage. You're not catching Wave Serpents in CC.again, 10 venoms is not a lot pts wize, at this kind of low pts, DE still have things like lances, but yes, serpent spam is basically a hard counter to venom spam as its all str 6 ignores cover... so? DECC does not have to beat the most brokenest of broken units, which happens to be a HARD counter for it, to be considered "viable" now does it? everything is supposed to have hard counters to balance the game (not that WS are balanced)
If you run into Daemons you die in CC but have a chance if you're shooting. If you run into 'Nids you die in CC but have a chance if you're shooting. If you run into Necrons you're SOL either way but stand a better chance if shooting, same with IG. If you run into Dark Angels you want to be shooting, if you run into Space Wolves you want to be shooting, if you run into anything with ATSKNF really you want to be shooting.
You do more damage by shooting. Plain and simple. It's not just that Tau and Eldar counter you, it's that Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Necrons, Vanilla, Space Wolves, IG and even friggin' Tyranids counter you if you try to run a Dark Eldar CC list like that.
EVIL INC wrote: Jano, you need to read through the thread. It iscrammed full of proof. Unless you are also of the sort that simply skips over and refuses to read anything that you disagree with. Now try to stay on topic eh?
Don't look at it as though we're ignoring the proof. We literally can't see it, so would you PLEASE, point it out to us? We've asked repeatedly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 00:32:26
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2014/01/16 00:59:25
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Assuming that whatever is shooting at you doesn't have AP6 or better. It helps against explosions, yes, but then you're stuck on foot halfway across the board.
this is true. Fleet can help with that a little bit, but only a unit or two at most will have to worry about it. the rest get through unscathed and untouched.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Yes, and it's always been one of the weaknesses of close combat. You do not decide what you have the opportunity of charging. Your opponent does. Have fun slaughtering Kroot, that Riptide you were after is going to move away from you while killing something else. Once you've killed your first sacrificial unit you're on foot and no longer have the mobility granted by the Venom.
This is where the mobility comes in. Some of the faster vehicles are able to flankve faster than the average infantry can wal. Even if an eney tau player is able to get a couple of kroot between me and a unit I want to assault, all I need to do is fire a tamplate weapon at the uit i want to assault covering a few kroot and make sure to hit the target unit. the fire the rest of my shots at the target unit (with them getting a 5+ cover save) and assault them anyway through the hole burned throughthe kroot line. depending on the size of the target unit and my own, i may even do disordered charge and pop both units in one go.
EVIL INC wrote: Jano, you need to read through the thread. It iscrammed full of proof. Unless you are also of the sort that simply skips over and refuses to read anything that you disagree with. Now try to stay on topic eh?
Don't look at it as though we're ignoring the proof. We literally can't see it, so would you PLEASE, point it out to us? We've asked repeatedly.
Read through the thread. it is in almost every post. I have provided MY proof (if you refus to admit it's existanc, that is on you. just dont try that when stepping into something physical that is just as "in your face", like for example, a train, it wont go as easy for you as it does when ignoring black and white words.. Now it is time for you to provide yours. oh, wait, you seem to have finally let your strawman go. Dont worry about i your concession is more than enough.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
CC, just like shooting, will have a particular goal depending on the situation. Sometimes you want to wipe that unit. Sometimes you just want to speed bump it to protect something else. Sometimes you want to effectively pin it in place.
These are tactical goals that all have their place and are all viable in 6th edition. Which, I believe, is what the entire original post was about.
We're probably using different variations on the word "viable". Could a melee-centric Dark Eldar list be made that could win games? Absolutely, and if that's what the OP wants then more power to him. I just want him to be aware that a shooty list is going to be better equipped than that melee list to take on the strongest builds of other Codices. Such a DE melee list would lose most of the time when played against a competent Taudar, Tau/Tau, Eldar, Necron, or similar player of equal skill and while the same may be true for Venom spam, it would stand a much better chance and as such be the closest thing to a viable list that Dark Eldar can field.
I started to respond to the other stuff you said, but honestly that doesn't matter. What does matter is your statement above (emphasis mine) as we are now to the heart of the matter. The original question was "Are CC armies viable?" I assume by "Absolutely" you have now agreed with the rest of us here in that, yes CC is "viable" regardless of definition. Thank you.
Whether there are potentially better choices than an melee-centric list within a given codex is immaterial.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 01:01:09
------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
2014/01/16 01:42:50
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
I don't agree on orks. Grots form really effective screens you can use to transport much larger mobs. Spend the transport points on dudes. Grots help ensure you're doing the charging. Just one way to skin a cats.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Omg u've ruined the thread once again, guyz There are tons of topics here with mellee is well and shiny vs mellee is dead. And they all state the same.
Take fast and tough units for that role. Bikes with indeps, Beasts with indeps, 2++ rerollable cheeze, FMC/JMC or units with tough assault transports. Don't take slow footsloggers or squishy things like witches or helions.
It's also somewhat useful to take slow but very tough units. Like guo. But he's usually considered a waste cause of how slow and avoidable he is.
Here's a great example of things changing with just the new rules and not new units. Shootaboyz. I do play orkses with boyz in wagons and they do fine cause they have tough and fast transports. Boyz are ALL shootas. Cause shootas apear to be vastly superior to slugga. Cause they do way more damage with shooting on the whole and when the target gets softened - they can clear it in mellee. While sluggas take more damage, closest die, they hit less and thus do less damage in mellee. Yep, shootaboyz turn out to be better in mellee than sluggas!!!
Also, like 50% of the time i prefer not to assault with them at all even if in assault range. Firstly, random charges in difterrain are a pain and to be honest, charging someone standing in the open happens extremely rarely. Than overwatch - not very damaging usually but every few models removed from the front make it harder to assault. Than challenges. With random charges i don't know how far ahead will i move. If i roll too low - i'm just taking a few more casualties from overwatch with getting nothing in return. If i roll too much - i can move in tactically bad position and if i wipe the enemy unit in mellee - boyz will easilly get shot down next turn. Also, my nob is gona get challenged. And i do want to avoid challenges with my pk nob cause he has chances to be dead before striking and even if he wins a challenge - it's just 1 casualty vs 1 wound that he usually takes. So to avoid challenges i got to place him accurately so that he is not in striking range when he starts combat but than piles in 3' when the closest boyz die and strikes his pk. It's not easy to do when you charge. But when you stand still - just place a nob 4-5 inches away from the front models. Than if you get charged - you shoot overwatch, boyz are really good at it and have a nob striking blows without being challenged out. While the enemy has to shoot down all the closest boyz if he's up to assaulting and locking nob in challenge - thus he has to spend more firepower in this direction - which is alwayz good in this situation. And with this trick you actually make use of that 3' pile in move making it profitable to you and not damaging when u're charging.
Must note that in previous edition i ran a footslogging greentide of sluggaboyz
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 05:24:18
2014/01/16 05:59:33
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
I'd like to see some BatReps to back up the trash-talk in this thread rather than regurgitating the same assertions over and over again and then smugly proclaiming "lulz we have successfully proven X Y and Z."
There are 10,000 BatReps on page 1 of the BatRep section alone, 10,000 tourny results showing the effectiveness of shooting armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 06:00:28
2014/01/16 06:41:11
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
There are tons of batreps with wraiths+dlords, spawns+lord/sorc, battlewagon shootaboyz, nob bikers, FMC, JMC winning strong shooty lists...all the stuff i've told about that's good and possible to work. I, myself won vs taudar with my battlewagon shootaboyz and nob bikers. It was hard but doable. IF you want, i can write a batrep some time.
Now i'd like to see the batrep where a greentide, witches or khorne zerkers did good vs competitive shooty armies. They can't even claim territory. It's an exception rather than a rule when those armies win even in semi-competitive meta. Though, i've managed to pull accident victories from time to time with my footslogga greentides...but once again - they were more like a meatshield and tarpit-upon tarpit that did 0 damage in mellee cause they couldn't get there. All they did was shooting down a few not-very tough targets with their shootas+bigshootas and just soaking fire and getting away with the relic somehow or controling more points cause an enemy makes mistakes and looses his scoring units to my long-range support, thus winning just by a point or two. But i call this victories accidents cause it mostly happens cause of luck and enemie's mistakes while i have to do everything as perfectly as possible. Also it helps when an enemy doesn't understand the true capacities of horde armies and overestimating them spending too much time at his boardedge and when the tide ends by turn 3-4 he doesn't have enough time to cleat them out completely cause they go ruin-hiding.
Thus, ONCE AGAIN. Assault is not in vain but if u're not tough, fast and hard-hitting - forget bout it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 13:39:10
2014/01/16 08:58:18
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
Jimsolo wrote: It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.
Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.
Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.
When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.
If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.
Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!
So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)
give this man a bucket of cookies
1500pt O'Vesa Star W: 27 D: 2 L: 1
The challenge: in a 1500pt game I will play 900pt + D6x100 pts, if I roll a 6 I reroll and -100 to that second number (down to 1000pt minimum)
W:6 D:0 L:1
2014/01/16 11:37:05
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
1 Leman Russ Eradicator #1 @ [190] Pts
Heavy Bolter; Sponson Heavy Bolters; Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber
Models in Army: 136
Total Army Cost: 1249
Was trying out different loadouts for allied leman russes. Now i'm set on an extermitarot with lazcannon, sponson hb and Pask for 235 pts. I also bring Marbo now. He's very demoralizing.
A taudar list was like:
1 Tau Commander 'Deathrain' (HQ) @ 182 Pts
Twin Missile Pod (x2); XV8-02 Crisis Iridium Battlesuit; Drone Controller
2 Marker Drones @ [24] Pts
1 XV104 Riptide (Elites) @ 190 Pts
Twin Fusion Blaster; Ion Accelerator; Early Warning Override
1 XV104 Riptide (Elites) @ 190 Pts
Twin Fusion Blaster; Ion Accelerator; Early Warning Override
1 XV104 Riptide (Elites) @ 190 Pts
Twin Fusion Blaster; Ion Accelerator; Early Warning Override
1 Farseer (HQ) (EL) @ 140 Pts
Witchblade; Shuriken Pistol; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Eldar
Jetbike
Models in Army: 48
Total Army Cost: 1249
Standard triptide stuff. At least he din't take a wave serpent.
So the game starts with hammer and anvil(!), relic(!) and nightfighting ( ). I win a choose-side and get 1-st turn. I always insist on placing terrain before any rolls are made so that we don't know what the deployment type will be or who's gona choose the table edge. I'll describe the map from a side long edge (cause of hammer and anvil) pov that's left to me, and right to the opponent. There's some blos around the midfield, ruins close to board edges - upper left and lower right, a dangerous terrain lake on the right side, a little wood in the upper-left corner and lower right corner. And some semi-destroyed barricades like sandbags and haywire on the left side closer to the central part of the table. Also there are some crates on the left side close to a ruin.
He rolled divination and got ignore cover, twin-linked and something else, don't remember.
I take right table edge. Than i place boyz as close to the front as possible. Starting from up tp bottom: 20 boyz, Leman russ amidst the boyz, Vets with a ccs sitting in the upper right woods behind the boyz, grots on a frontline from upper part of the field and through the middle-to the lower to cover 60 boyz standing right behind the grots, 30 boyz with a wierdboy, 30 boyz, 20 boyz on the lower part of the table.
While there are ruins and a wood and some blos stuff - it's hard to find place for 120 infantry models and a tank. So i cluster them up a bit cause i got 1-st turn and could not worry bout riptide pieplates. Vets with a ccs were sitting in the upper woods and not in the lower ruins for a few reasons. I hoped that a 5+ cover would attract more attention than a 4+ later cause i thought i'd need to somehow draw fire away from the boyz. To improve the effect i placed a lazcannon further ahead with just 2 guardians in front of it
The enemy spreads riptides across the field, bikes behind blos with a farseer, pathfinders in an ruin (upper left), commander with marker drones also in the upper left - a bit beneath the ruins, behind crates to block los to drones. He infiltrates kroots behind semi-destroyed barricades close to midfield but within 22-24 of my guyz. So i thought that he plans to draw some fire from shootaboyz on them while not too much and with a 4+ coversave while moving bikes behind blos and taking a relic next turn. Also i was sure he'd move riptides forward to get some aid in stopping a tide while bikes get away with a relic - at least i'd do that.
The game starts and he steals initiative!
Joins jetseer to a riptide which is kinda wierd cause usually you can't join a MC if u're not a MC urself...but seems there's a loophole with riptides cause they can take drones. I wasn't happy with that but din't argue cause i usually try to keep it friendly and forgiving. He moved croot a bit to get them in range, and moved with jetbikes. But he didn't go forward with riptides but just moved around to get a better view on da boyz from afar.
With the first volley from buffed tides he kills like 25 clustered boyz total, then a few shots from here and there and i had -30 boyz total and a few dead grots. Most casualties suffered midfield - moving a wierdboy squad like 4 inches backwards with casualties. like 5-7 dead boyz on another 30-strong squad, and some on an upper 20-boy squad. Leman russ suffers a glancing hit - one of riptides nova-charged to become s9 ordnance.
He flat-outs jetbikes behind a blos close to a relic like i've predicted. This 12+36 moves are very annoying.
And here we go - my turn. 1/3 of the army dead before da boyz even realize who da hell shot dem! It's night and dark around and den SWOOOOSH!11 Dead boyz.
But i forced myself not to go desperate and try to do at least somethin' before a wipe-out.
So i go forward with all da boyz, grots, spreading them as much as possible to protect from pieplates. Leman russ rides in position to shoot pathfinders and shooting begins.
Warphead rolls for a deepstrike - which i totally don't want to happen, there are too few of us but too little effective space on the board and even if we manage to ds and not mishap - we'll get shot to pieces, so i reroll and get a head kaboom It's good i alwayz keep a 2' gap from a wierdboy so he only inflicts 1 wound on himself (there are no exact rules on where to place wounds from a wierdboy'z explosion so i assume that it's something like a blast with wounds resolved from a firer so i start spreading wounds on a warphead and if there's literally anyone within a blast range - the wierdboy just dies so i have to keep a 2' distance, also not sure bout deny the witch roll in this case but i don't roll it cause it's somewhat wierd that he managed to kaboom da head and then say: "Naaah it just din't happen").
Comsquad issues vets to shoot kroots - the only thing they can see with nightfight - note that i can't use flashlights before orders, so i decided to go this way cause the lazcannon guy couldn't see markers anywayz and that's the unit i was gona flashlight with my tank. Vets miss. Leman russ can see pathfinders with 2 hb and a main cannon - shoots them, kills 3 with a main cannon cause they're spread out and the shot scattered and din't manage to do no damage with bolters cause of a 2+ cover save. Than comsquad's master of ordnance tries to call for some big gunz assistance vs pathfinders but they totally miss the target and hit nothing.
Upper shootaboyz run forward to close the distance with kroots but roll poorly and don't go too far ahead. Warped'z shootaboyz run forward and another big squad shoots kroots killing like 6-7 of them - not bad. Lower boyz run forward.
And grots roll good for a run move and go 6' forward so they're now very close to a relic-like 2-3'. I have no hopes of them capturing it but at least they'll be a mild distraction.
Kroots fail morale and run backwards.
Next turn he moves close to a relic with jetbikes and takes it. Kroots regroup, other kroots move forward to back-up the bikes.
He shoots and kills off most of the grots including a runthread with his bikers and some boyz but the overall effectiveness of shooting is a bit reduced thanks to decreased number of pathfinders and snapfiring kroots. Though the full strength kroot squad kills like 5 boyz and that's assuming cover! Total losses are like 20 boyz - thanks to some more cover saves and spreading. But the losses pushed boyz further away from the midfield.
All was gona be just as i have planned and even better cause he didn't push forward with riptides. But i din't know that bikes can battle focus with the relic! Now that's even more annoying than a 36' move. The rule for relic clearly states that you can't run...but as it turned out - battle focus is not exactly a run move. Which i think is another bad loophole like farseer + tide. And than he battlefocused 6' trying to hide them behind blos from at least one shootaboyz squad. That was something done on instinct - reduce incoming fire...but what he should have done imo is just go backwards to close with the kroots so that they can capture the relic next turn with some aid of riptides who are closer to kroot rather than that blos spot. And a farseer would go join kroots and eat up some fire. Anywayz the farseer should have been with bikes in the first place.
Even if he looses 15 kroots - he still has 9 remaining.
Remaining few grots fail morale and run away.
So here goes the key turn.
I move lower boyz just as close to jetbikes as possible while remaining in a line not to suffer too many casualties from a lower riptide that could see them without cover. And they're the main contestors of a relic and my only real hope of pushing a victory. But to do so - they need a distraction. So i marched my midfield orkses forward without further spreading and joined a second midfield squad with a wierdboy. The upper squad of boyz moved forward in the direction of midfield kroots. Leman russ rolls a bit forward and aims the same kroot cause they're the enemie's key to victory if i manage to kill the jetbikes.
Wierdboy rolls +1 attack in mellee and i'm happy cause it's not another 'ead explosion or deepstrike.
Company commander orders vets to "Fire on my target" vs a commander with marker drones that both barely see. It's the best vets could do cause they din't see the jetbikes or kroots. And they kill a marker drone thanks to a reroll. Than commander orders his own squad to "Fire on my target" vs bikes. Master of ordnance shoots and rolls hit! So that blast scatters only 2d6 and not 3d6 and with his awesome bs 4 it just scatters a bit and does 3 hits with 1 casualties - eldar rolled good even with rerolls for sucksessful covers. Than lower boyz shoot at bikers and kill 3 of them including a relic bearer. Was actually better than average but taking into consideration his awesome rolls vs a barrage - it lines up. The damaged squad that no longer has a warphead shoots bigshootas at the only jetbike they see and kill it. So there's just 1 biker remaining.
Leman russ and upper boyz shoot the hell out of 15 kroots. Kroots go to ground to minimise casualties but still suffer heavy losses with just 2 or 3 kroots remaining.
And here's what i have by then: half da boyz by the end of turn 2, running away grots, Leman russ eradicator with an opened-for a riptide side armor (did it on purpose to somehow distract his upper riptide from the midfield, cause if i opened the back armor - i'm afraid he'd get it and ). The enemy has full-str riptides, jetseer, shooty commander with a marker, 2 pathfinders, 1 jetbiker. With this forces he can easilly beat mine. But he made a mistake keeping riptides backfield and wasting his kroots in the middle of the map just to kill a bunch of boyz. That could have been fixed by a 2-d turn distraction farseer rushing towards the lower boyz or joining bikes. Or at least moving jetvikes backwards and not behind blos that din't actually do much.
So i decide to run forward with the squad of boyz with a wierdboy closing midfield. I rolled 5.
Only at the beginning of his 3-d turn an enemy realises that he NEEDS that riptides at the frontlines. And he needs a farseer not only buffing riptides. But he still ahd chances with that one jetbike. He moved the riptides forward but still was too far away. Jetbike picked a relic, farseer moved towards kroots while they tried to go towards the relic but were slowed a bit by defterrain and opened themselves to midfield boyz.
He shot down like another 20 boyz with riptides and commander but the jetbike moved just 4 inches with the relic So that it remained ~ 12' away from the lower shootaboyz that suffered just 1 loss from a riptide due to scatter - he had twin-linked and the first shot scattered a bit and hit 4 boyz. He wanted more, rerolled and it hit 1 - and ~20 away from the midfield boyz that were gona intercept the riptides allowing the lower boyz go in for the relic.
I moved forward and called for the WAAAAAAAAGH to gain fleet and reroll running moves - i needed every inch to intercept the tides and gain relic. And thanks to WAAAAAGH i got very close to it - and my opponent gave up. Though i do believe he had great chances of killing the relic-wielders. Even so, by turn 3 he realised how many tactical mistakes he had done and that they cost him a sure victory.
So my assault-oriented boyz didn't participate in a single mellee. And it would only have happened if the opponent wanted it or he had no other choice. Cause without speed and worse saves and the ammount of firepower the oponent has - all that footslogas can do is beigh tactical and kill what the opponent throws at them. If i had bikernobz - i'd go forth and fight the jetbikes cause i had a chance of catching them. I'd go backfield and kill a riptide or two and distract alot of firepower on my bikers. If i had wagons i'd push forward faster and ended up controling the midfield and slowly bringing a relic on my side forcing an opponent to go offensive thus having options on what to do myself. And fighting riptides with worn-down boyz even with a pk nob alive ain't really gtear. Though they have an upper hand in mellee.
While with such low mobility all i could do is use distraction upon distraction - this grots and midfield boyz did attract enough firepower to allow downfield boyz do the job, though vet distraction din't work - though i supposed them to start doing something around turn 3 where they were supposed to rush forward and help da boyz.
I didn't play on my own terms but rather used opponent's mistakes as much as could. And i see no other way how it might work now. But that's not how a true-winner army works.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 12:07:35
2014/01/16 14:15:44
Subject: New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
The big Eastern November Tourney, I came in first place. My army, grey knights/guard.Cant remember the exact list as i change it every game. No static list for me, I take what I think is cool at the time i put it together.
It was something like this-Coatex attached to 6 monkeys and a couple crusaders+ chimera, Unit of crusaders, unit of odd acolytes and a monkey, shunting dreadknight and shunting 10 intercepters. Comissar lord attached to harkers camp mob with a las cannon behinf the ADL/quad gun, camo manticore
Game 1- Vs necrons and dark angels. Opponent got first turn and set up VERY aggressivelyout in the open as close as he could get to me (ignoring everything we talk about in using close combat effectively. Had I not stolen the initiative, he would have hosed me. As it was, I took out almost half his army on my first turn and spent the rest of the game mopping up. A lot of t in assaultwith my dreadknight. End of game all that he had left on the board was a ruined, barely holding on fortress of redemmption.
Game 2.- Right now, I'm having a brain fart and cant remember who I played but I do remember I won handily.
Game 3- I played an eldar wave serpent list. He got first turn. and didnt accomplish much beyond getting very close to me. I popped his transports and started hosing down his troops that rolled out right in front of me. My shunters jumped forward to engage a flank full of warp spiders/banshees. over the rest of the game, the flank fought hidious close combat where all that was left at the end was a single banshee. the center was a huge short ranged firefight where both sides hurt one another a lot but I came out ahead. My other flank was a not so hidious close combt but it was the game decider as my acolytes fought tooth and nail against a unit of dire avengers over several turns. While this was going, I moved a chimera behind it between it and the objective. On the LAST turn of the game, my last acolyte fell and the eldar rolled for consolidation and because ofthe chimera, they were not able to reach the objective to claim it. The one I held in my center won me the game and the tourney.
This last tourney (I didnt place. My list- Coatex + a few monkeys/crusaders in a razorback, a couple crusaders, a acolyte squad, 2 shunting dreadknights and 2 full 10 man intercepter squads plus a vindicare.
Game one- Vs space wolves close fought. Had i been able to pop his land raider, i would have tabled him before he got a turn I feel.I took over his ADLHis drop pods coming in meant that he was able to unload a lot of shots into me. We fought a LOT of hand to hand (stupid me forgot my dreadknights were character or i would targeted the power fist sarges a few times and won more easily. We ran out of time and the other guy called the game rather than start another turn that would went over to where others woulda waitid on us. I madesure to ask him if that was what he wanted. Another turn would have won the game for him. I think he gave me a gimmie game. But he was an old buddy I hadnt seen in a long whie and he did not expect to do anything. I had aso explained a few things to help him out during the game that he could use in the rest. So he shoulda won but i did.
game 2- Played new tyranid codex. I got tabled. gribblies ate me in close combat.highlights of the game included a dreadknight killing a whatever the huge bug with guns is. not the loadout that craps termigants but the one with gun, while in close combat with it, old one eye and hive tyrant. and the last single intercepter kiling off a floating psychic guy inclose combat and facing a swarm single handed in a heroic last stand. The rest either got swamped or chased down.
Game 3- black templars, 3 land raider list, land raiders dont like close combatwith dreadknights and turbo penetrate shots. idid get lucky on his failing a lot of armor rolls on his terminaters that came out of a LRC. Or course, having to roll as many dice as he did, i reckon it wasnt to much luck as odds. Had 2 heavy incineraters on them, a normal one, a psycannon and 8 psybolt stormbolters. The templars put up a much harder fight before being tabled than my own guys did in the previous game.
Sorry been too long since the games so cant give fully fleshed out and detailed batreps. But they are more than enough to show that close combat is alive and well and that even the lowliest guys can win you a game in close combat (a small unit of 4 point acolytes).
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Okay, close combat is not dead, but neither is it restricted to an elite few. close combat is not all about tabling your opponent every game as it was in earlier editions. as has been shown, even a lowly unit of 8 models that consist of 4 point models can win you the game through close combat.
Close combat is not always about killing the other unit. it can be able tying up a unit to prevent it frm taking part in the rest of the game, it can be about getting in to contest an objective, heck, it can even be able blocking off areas of access to other units. For example, there is an alley where a vehicle could normally drive through to deliver a payload of troops on the last turn to get line breaker. A close combat in the end of the alley can block it so that the vehicle cant get through.
The strategic and tactical uses of close combat are nearly endless so the use of it is indeed perfectly viable. we dont need any extra power.
having a few or at least one unit that is decent at close combat makes these countless applications easier to accomplish..
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
So really, we can answer the OP in the negative, CC armies aren't viable. However, armies with CC elements can do well even in a heavily shooting biased edition.
2014/01/16 15:45:24
Subject: Re:New Player Question: Are CC Armies Viable?
A cc army is difficult in this edition but good cc units ghave their place for sure. I played a dark harvest list on Wednesday with a D=lord and nine charnel scarbs. They were the MVP unit downing a WK and hunting down squads. They were a buzzsaw. But I would not use two of them. In a DE list you might take two cc units (beastmasters/grots) but agin just the one lrge beastpack usually makes for a better list. Daemons are a cc army only because FMCs will eventually assault and khorne dogs and daemontttes are not afraid of assault.So they might be the best example of a current cc army that is competitive.
More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Solid Fists 2000 wip 
1500pt O'Vesa Star W: 27 D: 2 L: 1
). I win a choose-side and get 1-
It's good i alwayz keep a 2' gap from a wierdboy so he only inflicts 1 wound on himself (there are no exact rules on where to place wounds from a wierdboy'z explosion so i assume that it's something like a blast with wounds resolved from a firer so i start spreading wounds on a warphead and if there's literally anyone within a blast range - the wierdboy just dies so i have to keep a 2' distance, also not sure bout deny the witch roll in this case but i don't roll it cause it's somewhat wierd that he managed to kaboom da head and then say: "Naaah it just din't happen").
