Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Assault is a last resort. If you have no ability to out-shoot an army, assaulting is the only thing that is going to get it done. Taking dedicated assault units in TAC lists is just throwing points away unless they are really, really good at what they do. Few armies have them, fewer armies can use them effectively, and even fewer win with them. 5th was about shooting, but assault had enough little things like assaulting out of transports or outflank assaults that you could make it work. Gone are those things, in are the 2++ reroll gimicks that are the only things keeping assault-based armies in the game. If 5th was 25% assault, 75% shooting, 6th is 90% shooting, 10% assaulting.

Zephoid is 100% on the money.

Your numbers are way off and transports can actually be useful. Even the lowly rhino is a stf used correctly. they can ot only cary a unit but also block LOS o other units from enemy units. Rammng tonger tanks or such and becomeing wrecks can slowdown an enemy as they try to get over or around it. he ability to provide OS blocking "terrain" after the game has egun can be usefull. Dont even start dissing drop pods. a very cheap trasport for units such as sternguard into the enemy lines for a tur of shooting, another turn of shooting plus asault. Assaulting alongside the vanguard veterans who then deepstrike with no deviation (you DID buy the pod upgrade didnt you) and assault the turn they come in.
the thing is tonot go "pure" one way or the other but to combine elements together to a cohesive whole.

Thank you for conceding the argument Evil. Now, could I please ask you to stop claiming that we're saying that you shouldn't take any melee units whatsoever, under any circumstances? You know, like we've been saying all thread, and for all of the last thread too?

EDIT: And just because I'm curious, how are Kroot good at CC? They're Strength 3, have one attack and a 6+ save. What are you going to kill with that? They USED to be decent-ish in close combat, but then 6th edition happened.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Assaulting alongside the vanguard veterans who then deepstrike with no deviation (you DID buy the pod upgrade didnt you) and assault the turn they come in.

Assuming the enemy didn't see the blatantly obvious trick coming, shot the AV12 Open Topped vehicle to death and left your Vanguard castrated.

Martel732 wrote:

Getting into CC is not good enough. Yes it is, thats the point, shooting doesnt sweeping advance whole units, also you are protected from shooting while in CCThat's the problem. Your opponent chooses what you assault. actually, in the rules, YOU choose how to assault, your opponent has two choices as a "shooty" army, spread out along his edge, or turtle in a corner, both had very good CC counters via denied flank, feints, or simply controlling the midfeild and denying objectivesAnd then shoots you more the turn after you win. No good player is going to let you multi-charge unless they want to be, again totally false... I play plenty of good players, and get plenty of multi charges because I can force them very easily, especially with mobile unitslike Space Wolves. Losing 2/3 of your list getting to CC is not good enough because good players will then gun down everything that made initial contact the following turn.again, you are ignoring that CC hides units... you are also assuming the opponent has enless supplies of models, and are IGNORING that good CC armies will outnumber the opponent 2-1 or 3-1 or more... I KNOW this works, because I did it with BA in 5th and STILL do it with BA/C:SM.references to 5th edition while we are in 6th are pretty much meaningless Your typical assault scheme won't work against MY lists, much less good lists. Now, if you are the magical few with 2++ rerollable, you can do fine, because you are *immortal*. and yet I am constantly winning with orks, and GK with CC tactics, and have even won a tournament with the CC GK.. massacreing the tau, eldar, taudar, and heldrake spam lists i played.. this isnt one or two games, this is almost 10 games in a row won with ORKS.. and 90% of the games in the last year with GK (easily 50+ games)

Everytime someone lines up a CC army against me, I sigh with relief. CC armies have to waste time busting their humps to get into CCtrue enough, you gotta take some lumps to get there, only to fail to do enough damage 80% of the timetotal BS... once in cc you do not fail to damage 80% of the time, total BS... once in CC your problem becomes NOT sweeping advancing the entire unit in one turn, and getting a 2nd CC turn out of it.. I get a chance to maneuverOh really... your static gun line with no manuverability is out manuvering assault armies that move ar double or more your speed? sounds like you just play really REALLY untalented people who dont know how to play CC lists and weaken you and also dictate every engagement since the CC list is the one desperate to close the distanceagain, if your turtle is dictating how things move on the board, your opponent sucks.. the turtle is desparate to stay out of CC, and ther is only so much board to run on, and again a good CC player is taking fast units, or in enough #'s that closing the gap is doable.. (Which can be non-trivial vs BA) Contrast this to Eldar, which are just death from 36", unrelenting, unyielding. You can't outmaneuver 36" guns. They don't miss. They don't fail to wound meqs. They choose what dies, not me. What part of this don't you get?sure if you live in a magical world where shooting doesnt miss, doesnt fail to wound, and your oppoent is the only one with tactics or control.. but again, inthe REAL world, shooting still has to roll to hit, wound, and get through saves... in the REAL world, there is LOS blocking terrain. In the real world, a good CC opponents list is in CC turn two, and you have one turn to shoot them, maybe two, before you start losing entire units to SA

"everything has to hit their lines at the same time. "

I, as the defensive shooter, can engineer this not to happen.again total BS... you keep thinking like your static gun line is more mobile then a properly made assault force.. not to mention your handwaivium that the shooter just has total control of everything so why bother... you either play totally clueless CC lists/players or are just talking big to sound big.

in short, while assault took some big hits this edition, and isnt "top teir power listing" to lots of internet folk,

its still very much viable as long as you can adjust your tactics for each engagment, and have a SOLID plan before hand for how you close the gap (ie speed, #'s, other durability factors, ect)


im still laughing at the poster above me... suuure shooty armies can out manuver CC armies all the time, and out shoot them, and not be hurt in CC 80% of the time... sure they can... lol

thats what the eldar player said when we at the 40k final table for 1st place at thr tournament "lol CC GK? really? how did you even get to this table? Im actually glad to see this" 5 turns later, after every troop he has is gone, and his last WS cant score any objectives, his tone was "I lost turn two.. there was nothing I could do.. OMG interceptors are OP"

" and are IGNORING that good CC armies will outnumber the opponent 2-1 or 3-1 or more"

I guess my BA missed the memo on how to CC then. Actually, when does any meq list outnumber ANYONE 2-1 or 3-1? What the heck are you talking about?

Space Wolves, last time I checked, are not considered "mobile". Except maybe the wolf riders.

References to 5th AREN'T meaningless because BA are a 5th edition codex. And if you try to CC my BA, you are basically teleporting yourself back to 5th edition except with 6th edition CC nerfs and making my codex good again. BA fast razors and preds will shred you unless you kill them at range. Which uh....... CC lists can't do. Guess who can?

Who said gun lines have to turtle? That's why I think you are playing low quality opponents. There is an art to putting the right speed bump in the way of the oncoming CC you. With premeasure, you can give them two choices: assault the unit selected for them, or suffer around round of shooting to get to assault the unit they want to assault. Either way, the shooter list wins. The shooter list doesn't have to be MORE mobile. It just has to be mobile enough. But a BA shooter list can be pretty damn mobile have fun with that.

As for CC talent, I smashed people with it in 3rd and 4th edition. Did I suddenly forget how to move my models or do math? No. I lost the ability to sweeping advance and started taking HUGE casualties just to get into CC. Cheap enemy models with potent guns are a lethal combination. That's why the 5th IG codex is still incredibly dangerous.

I'm laughing at you because you live in a magical, magical place.

"ts still very much viable as long as you can adjust your tactics for each engagment'

There is no "adjusting" to the amount of fire and the casualties generated thereof. The Eldar player tells you which models to pick up. And you pick them up. It's not even interactive.

I'm with others: assault is absolutely alive and well. There are MANY instances, where assault can be a game changer. Of course, the main things to bear in mind are speed and survivability.

Anyone declaring "assault is dead" has simply abandoned a core part of the game and is leaving a great tool at home.

Last night I played against 3 armies that failed to include any type of assault based units. The first one I tabled, the second one had his core shooting units tied up in CC for several rounds which kept them out of the game while MY shooting units took his troops apart. The third one was much closer, but as my assaulting units where bearing down on him he forgot about target priority, shot the wrong things and subsequently lost due to his own mistakes.

In all 3 cases, having an assault strategy and using them appropriately allowed me to win.

So, dissenters, please go ahead and tell everyone that assault is dead. Meanwhile I'll continue hitting them hard and wiping the floor with them.

Now, just to be clear, I would never take an entirely assault based army. Of course, I'd never take an entirely shooting based army either. Balance within a proper strategy is key.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Thank you for conceding the argument Evil. Now, could I please ask you to stop claiming that we're saying that you shouldn't take any melee units whatsoever, under any circumstances? You know, like we've been saying all thread, and for all of the last thread too?

EDIT: And just because I'm curious, how are Kroot good at CC? They're Strength 3, have one attack and a 6+ save. What are you going to kill with that? They USED to be decent-ish in close combat, but then 6th edition happened.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Assaulting alongside the vanguard veterans who then deepstrike with no deviation (you DID buy the pod upgrade didnt you) and assault the turn they come in.

Assuming the enemy didn't see the blatantly obvious trick coming, shot the AV12 Open Topped vehicle to death and left your Vanguard castrated.

Actually, it is YOU who have conceded the argument through an inability to support your stance.
How are kroot good at close combat? try 2 attacks (their weapons still give them +1 correct), infiltrate/outflank. lets put 20 fire guardsmen in base to base with 20 kroot. assume another +1 attak for kroot for assaulting. I'll put my money on the kroot. But as I said, i am not looking for them to win the game. I am looking for a combination of unit types to win the game. Relying on one solely is a bad idea. i used the kroot and tau as they are the most extreme "shooty sterotype army and to demonstrate that they too can have elements within them that are capable of close combat that could win a game in a pinch.
Yes, the enemy MAY shoot the transport and totally ignore the sternguard. Either way it is a win -win because then that is less shots going into the sternguard before they shoot/assault and there is still the chance the vanguard vets hit on target or close enogh to still assault..

Again, assault can be effective. Especially in a dark eldar army(remeber, the OP asked about DE), The speed DE have can really help you get what units you want to where you want them. Remember though, that jink rolls can be failed and you can get stuck out of effective assault range. This is where the guns come in handy. To help soften up targets and to protect/cover your units till they CAN get close enough. I think you'll find the cobination of units working together your best bet.

clively wrote:
I'm with others: assault is absolutely alive and well. There are MANY instances, where assault can be a game changer. Of course, the main things to bear in mind are speed and survivability.

Anyone declaring "assault is dead" has simply abandoned a core part of the game and is leaving a great tool at home.

Last night I played against 3 armies that failed to include any type of assault based units. The first one I tabled, the second one had his core shooting units tied up in CC for several rounds which kept them out of the game while MY shooting units took his troops apart. The third one was much closer, but as my assaulting units where bearing down on him he forgot about target priority, shot the wrong things and subsequently lost due to his own mistakes.

In all 3 cases, having an assault strategy and using them appropriately allowed me to win.

So, dissenters, please go ahead and tell everyone that assault is dead. Meanwhile I'll continue hitting them hard and wiping the floor with them.

My whole position is predicated on both players knowing what the hell is up. Sounds like you should have lost the third game to someone who knew what they were looking at.

10% assault/ 90% shooting is not "no assault". But it is greatly trivialized. And that seems to be the proper ratio now.

Martel732 wrote:
My whole position is predicated on both players knowing what the hell is up. Sounds like you should have lost the third game to someone who knew what they were looking at.

Which brings us back to you making our point for us. Strategy and tactics. I appreciate the support you are giving us.

sounds like you just hate eldar martel.... as apparently they just get to point at models and take them off now...

the OP is asking if CC is still viable,

it is, give him tactics related to his request in his post instead of repeating ad finitum the same, tired, untrue, "CC is dead OGURD"


you only need to outnumber the opponent for horde CC armies, MEQ's, such as my gks, normally # far fewer, but themobility saves them from dieing... if you actually read the posts you would see there are many different tactics you need, depending on the CC army you take.. .either full out speed+glass cannon, or all out durability with #'s, ect ect...

have fun trying to speed bump me.. thats just fancy talk for "my turtle has a mini tutrle 6-12 inches in front that forces the guys behind it to hug the table edge and be destroyed the second they fail moral...

you also get to CC in the opponents turn, something you dont do with shooting, which is effectively 2x the dmg output for your unit.

all your counters are things I have dealt with, quite easily... bubble wrap, speed bumps ect... what the heck do you even think I meant when I said "tactics"? its called flanking, boom you are on the sides and around the speed bump... heck even just massed ork boys roflstomp tau who thing they can just put a sacrifice unit up front and escape the green tides turn 3 assault.

there is one solid, hard counter to most CC lists,

But the one ACTUAL counter to CC lists is one i never, ever see... the counter charge CC unit in a shooty list... why do i never see it? because all these guys think CC is "dead" so why waste pts...

its laughable, no one takes the one hard counter they should be cause "CC is dead"

 EVIL INC wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Thank you for conceding the argument Evil. Now, could I please ask you to stop claiming that we're saying that you shouldn't take any melee units whatsoever, under any circumstances? You know, like we've been saying all thread, and for all of the last thread too?

EDIT: And just because I'm curious, how are Kroot good at CC? They're Strength 3, have one attack and a 6+ save. What are you going to kill with that? They USED to be decent-ish in close combat, but then 6th edition happened.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Assaulting alongside the vanguard veterans who then deepstrike with no deviation (you DID buy the pod upgrade didnt you) and assault the turn they come in.

Assuming the enemy didn't see the blatantly obvious trick coming, shot the AV12 Open Topped vehicle to death and left your Vanguard castrated.

Actually, it is YOU who have conceded the argument through an inability to support your stance.
How are kroot good at close combat? try 2 attacks (their weapons still give them +1 correct), infiltrate/outflank. lets put 20 fire guardsmen in base to base with 20 kroot. assume another +1 attak for kroot for assaulting. I'll put my money on the kroot.

Kroot weapons no longer grant additional attacks, and you're saying they're good because they can beat Fire Warriors in close combat. A wet paper bag could beat 20 Fire Warriors.

 EVIL INC wrote:

Actually, it is YOU who have conceded the argument through an inability to support your stance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

Actually, YOU are the one who bandies about the name calling and personal attacks.

Where? Quote me or concede the argument.

 EVIL INC wrote:
It has also been proven that it is a personel vendetta against me in particuler because there are MANY others who disagree with you and provide proof that you leave alone.

Where? Quote me or concede the argument.

You're claming I did things and when you're called out on it you don't back it up. That's conceding the argument. You'll note that when I'm making this allegation, I actually quote stuff to back it up.

i notice that out of all the posts providing evidence that CC is not dead, you still single me out to call wrong. Hmmmm

I am appreciative of you conceding the point because you have yet to provide evidence to back up your argument.

 easysauce wrote:
sounds like you just hate eldar.... as apparently they just get to point at models and take them off now...

the OP is asking if CC is still viable,

it is, give him tactics related to his request in his post instead of repeating ad finitum the same, tired, untrue, "CC is dead OGURD"


you only need to outnumber the opponent for horde CC armies, MEQ's, such as my gks, normally # far fewer, but themobility saves them from dieing... if you actually read the posts you would see there are many different tactics you need, depending on the CC army you take.. .either full out speed+glass cannon, or all out durability with #'s, ect ect...

have fun trying to speed bump me.. thats just fancy talk for "my turtle has a mini tutrle 6-12 inches in front that forces the guys behind it to hug the table edge and be destroyed the second they fail moral...

all your counters are things I have dealt with, quite easily...

yet the one ACTUAL counter to CC lists is one i never, ever see... the counter charge CC unit in a shooty list... why do i never see it? because all these guys think CC is "dead" so why waste pts...

its laughable, no one takes the one hard counter they should be cause "CC is dead"

Guess what hangs out in my mobile BA shooter list? A squad with three IC power axes with furious charge and FNP. With jump packs. Because that's all it takes to slow down a CC list enough to turn it into turkey shoot.

Now flip it around. Is said counter attack squad going to be of any use against Eldar or Tau? No. Because they have firepower to remove them at a safe distance.

And, yes, I hate Eldar. BA are at a disadvantage against other meq lists, but it is a manageable one. Against Tau/Eldar, I simply can't withstand the punishment they deliver at 30"-36". I take way too much damage against them from way too far away to arrive with meaningful amounts of troops.

Speed bumps work very well because of pre-measure and in inability to consolidate into a new CC. Despite your tough talk, there is nothing you can do against a good shooter list that knows how to speed bump to nullify the speed bump. Now, not all shooter lists HAVE good speed bumps and that does open the door a bit.

 EVIL INC wrote:
i notice that out of all the posts providing evidence that CC is not dead, you still single me out to call wrong. Hmmmm

I am appreciative of you conceding the point because you have yet to provide evidence to back up your argument.

I'm not responding to the other posts because either someone else has already responded or because it's arguments we've already had in this thread.

Meanwhile, you really need to learn what conceding the argument means. You're not responding to any of my posts, you just make up your own allegations each time I ask you to back something up.

As the saying goes, "either put up or shut up".

And just to be extra specific, what I'm asking is where I called you names or used personal attacks against you, as well as where your proof of a personal vendetta against you is.

Martel732 wrote:

Guess what hangs out in my mobile BA shooter list? A squad with three IC power axes with furious charge and FNP. With jump packs. Because that's all it takes to slow down a CC list enough to turn it into turkey shoot.

OH MY GOD!!!! You cant use THAT!, its a unit that is effective at close combat! with each new post, you prove our point for us more and more. You are arguing for our cause better than we are ourselves. Thank you so much.

There's two completely separate conversations going on here.

Martel732 wrote:
Guess what hangs out in my mobile BA shooter list? A squad with three IC power axes with furious charge and FNP. With jump packs. Because that's all it takes

sounds like you are just angry you play BA....


curious as to how you have 3 IC's to spare just in a CC squad, and how they kill my interceptor GK's, even though my GK's go first, wound on 3/4+, ignore your armour, ignore your FnP, and you are I1 with the axe...

but please, do go on about how your 3 guys with I1 ap2 str 5 weapon attacks on a 3+ t4 marine beats my whole squad of i4 ap3 str 4/5 force weapon attacks ..

or how your three axes defeat mobs of boys that outnumber you 3-1...

speed bumps.. riiight cause they can fit infinate #'s of bumps in their 12" deployment zone...

literally EVERYONE has tried that against me, and failed miserably... my orks just swarm them and my GK just shunt behind their lines or DS behind the lines... MOBILITY get that through your head, it does in fact get around speed bumps...




maybe stay on topic, OP is asking how to make viable CC DE,

talk about that, or leave the thread, as screaming "CC IS DEAD DONT EVEN TRY"

isnt helpful, entertaining, or really doing anyone any good...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
i notice that out of all the posts providing evidence that CC is not dead, you still single me out to call wrong. Hmmmm

I am appreciative of you conceding the point because you have yet to provide evidence to back up your argument.

I'm not responding to the other posts because either someone else has already responded or because it's arguments we've already had in this thread.

Meanwhile, you really need to learn what conceding the argument means. You're not responding to any of my posts, you just make up your own allegations each time I ask you to back something up.

As the saying goes, "either put up or shut up".

And just to be extra specific, what I'm asking is where I called you names or used personal attacks against you, as well as where your proof of a personal vendetta against you is.

yes indeed. Put up or shut up. The very fact that you have singled out my specific posts tyo respond to and argue with while ignoring anyone else who is making the same statements i am is evidence that you have something specific against me. this because I am saying nothing different from the others that you are ignoring. That is all the evidence required from me. now, "put up or shut up" and provide evidence to support your own stance.

Now, to try to veer the thread back on topic again (i think Easysauce and i are the only ones actually addressing the OP anymore lol....
Try for yourself the different variations. DEFINATELY do this before you drop a load of money on the army. As you can see this thread is likely done for you as it has turned into a personal agenda thread with a few ofthe rest of us responding to the,. From here, you might try the army list section of the forum and see some of the actual builds that people are using and how well they are working for them. that will ikely much more helpful to you than this nonsense.

 easysauce wrote:


literally EVERYONE has tried that against me, and failed miserably... my orks just swarm them and my GK just shunt behind their lines or DS behind the lines... MOBILITY get that through your head, it does in fact get around speed bumps...

The problem is that Battlesuits, Wave Serpents, Bikes, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the like also have mobility, but unlike you only have to keep away.

 easysauce wrote:
sounds like you are just angry you play BA....

speed bumps.. riiight cause they can fit infinate #'s of bumps in their 12" deployment zone...

literally EVERYONE has tried that against me, and failed miserably... my orks just swarm them and my GK just shunt behind their lines or DS behind the lines... MOBILITY get that through your head, it does in fact get around speed bumps...

curious as to how you have 3 IC's to spare just in a CC squad, and how they kill my GK's, even though my GK's go first, wound on 3+, ignore your armour, and you are I1 with the axe...

but please, do go on about how your 3 I1 ap2 str 5 weapon attacks on a 3+ t4 marine beats my whole squad of i4 ap3 str 4/5 force weapon attacks

or how your three axes defeat mobs of boys that outnumber you 3-1...



maybe stay on topic, OP is asking how to make viable CC DE,

talk about that, or leave the thread, as screaming "CC IS DEAD DONT EVEN TRY"

isnt helpful, entertaining, or really doing anyone any good...

The 3 ICs are with a full squad of ASM. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I guess it's technically 2 ICs and sarge. But BA are forced to have vet sarges, so they are more killy than the usual marine sarges you see anymore. They act as meat shields for the axes. It's not perfect, but it's dangerous enough.

You keep pretending that gun lines can't move. They certainly have more room to maneuver than 12". And they don't need infinite speed bumps. They usually only need the one. Because you are almost certainly in the open and in double tap range. Good night.

I'm not so much angry that I play BA is that armies like Tau and Eldar exist. A lot of what you say is applicable in meq vs meq battles, because neither side has the firepower to erase the other from across the board. But Tau/Eldar can do this. Even worse, Eldar have an immortal HTH unit and fire platforms that are also very tough and move 12". A lot of what you talk about is possible in say a BA vs C:SM matchup or BA vs CSM. The difference is that meqs lists usually have limited access to ignore cover and usually half or LESS the volume of fire around 30". That is game changing for CC lists.

The people you describe don't know the game well enough then, because if someone KNOWS what your units can do, they can speed bump you with pre-measuring.

The fact that you mentioned DS as a useful option against anyone who is any good speaks volumes. PLEASE, PLEASE DS. It wasn't good in 5th and isn't good now.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
i notice that out of all the posts providing evidence that CC is not dead, you still single me out to call wrong. Hmmmm

I am appreciative of you conceding the point because you have yet to provide evidence to back up your argument.

I'm not responding to the other posts because either someone else has already responded or because it's arguments we've already had in this thread.

Meanwhile, you really need to learn what conceding the argument means. You're not responding to any of my posts, you just make up your own allegations each time I ask you to back something up.

As the saying goes, "either put up or shut up".

And just to be extra specific, what I'm asking is where I called you names or used personal attacks against you, as well as where your proof of a personal vendetta against you is.

yes indeed. Put up or shut up. The very fact that you have singled out my specific posts tyo respond to and argue with while ignoring anyone else who is making the same statements i am is evidence that you have something specific against me.

You'll note in the post below yours that you're demonstrably wrong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


literally EVERYONE has tried that against me, and failed miserably... my orks just swarm them and my GK just shunt behind their lines or DS behind the lines... MOBILITY get that through your head, it does in fact get around speed bumps...

The problem is that Battlesuits, Wave Serpents, Bikes, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the like also have mobility, but unlike you only have to keep away.

except they have 12" of table to move on, while I control the other 36", they cannot move THROUGH me, they have to move AWAY... and cant keep doing that.. not to mention it gives up table control.

every single one of the units you mentioned is slower then the GK 30" shunt, or will get cornered, thats part of tactics, you have to use the terrain/board edge to trap them...

even the orks will box you in, as you cannot move THROUGH them, left or right dont help you as there are more orks to the left or right, and youonly get 12" movement backwards, at MOST assuming you deployed like a fool all the way forward. most will deploy in the 4-10" range from their board edge, and only have side to side movement available in lengths greater then 12"...

and as we discussed, the CC guy has FLANKED (ie covered the sides through mobility, or sheer #'s of guys crowding the table) so the shooty guy gets boxed in.

worst case scenario, they kite me all the way back to their table edge, wipe out my units, then lose as by now its turn 3-4, and they are too far from objectives to score (none of those mobile units are scoring save some bikes, so I generally would be taking out their troops instead, as thats what wins most games, capping objectives)

even bikes only move 12" and still fire, so if they ar turbo boosting, they are not damaging me, if they shoot, my 12" move + 2d6 assault is enough to charge them and wipe them out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
question for martel:

are your gaming tables normally "planet bowling ball"

or are they properly covered in 25% terrain with at least one LOS blocking peice, as they are supposed to be?

because it sure sounds like all your scenarios invlove me being out in the open in double tap range... something I will pre measure to totally avoid...

at worst I get cover, at best im out of LOS

Are these foot Orks or Orks in Battlewagons? Ork or GK primary FOC?

Why are opponents not obliterating the interceptors the turn after they shunt? That's usually what I do to them. Because they can't assault that turn. Nor can you assault from outflank, nor DS. That "dead" turn is murder. Literally.

 EVIL INC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Guess what hangs out in my mobile BA shooter list? A squad with three IC power axes with furious charge and FNP. With jump packs. Because that's all it takes to slow down a CC list enough to turn it into turkey shoot.

OH MY GOD!!!! You cant use THAT!, its a unit that is effective at close combat! with each new post, you prove our point for us more and more. You are arguing for our cause better than we are ourselves. Thank you so much.

I don't think many are saying CC is dead per say. The biggest problem I have noticed is that many CC units just don't have the means of reaching the enemy effectively anymore. Also, a single squad with 3 IC power axes, FC, and FNP with CC. That's not really what a CC army is. A CC army means a majority of your army wants to get in and beat them with stuff and poke them with the pointy end. This single thing added in is to respond to CC armies by stalling, slowing, and crippling enemy charges that make it through and heck to be honest it probably is a bit overcosted (then again BA do need an update)

"are your gaming tables normally "planet bowling ball" "

First off, relying on a certain terrain set up is weak sauce right there. Armies need to be balanced for both sparse boards and dense boards. You never know a priori what the board will look like, so counting on that is not good.

I have played on a variety of different boards. Boards with LOS terrain still have firing lanes, since assault elements generally still have to move around the terrain.

No, not all the scenarios. But I will make damn sure my speed bumps that you take so lightly are. So you will be forced to come out into the open to get me. But the way you talk, you list should work on planet bowling ball as well. Right?

Cover. LOL. You act like that means something to Tau/Eldar. Eldar can generate 50+ wounds against meqs in a single turn. More, if you within dire avenger range. Go ahead and take your armor saves and still take 17+ casualties. Weight of fire >>>>>>> quality of fire. Low AP doesn't make meqs bad; weight of fire does.

I also notice your list is padded with non-meqs. However, footslogger Orks have their own set of problems. Like TFCs. Dirt cheap TFCs. Battlewagon Orks are better, because the battlewagon is undercosted pretty significantly imo.

"r are they properly covered in 25% terrain with at least one LOS blocking peice, as they are supposed to be? "

That's not in the rules. The terrain is random. You could get one piece per section, and there is no guarantee that it would be LOS blocking. 25% is from 5th ed, chief.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Guess what hangs out in my mobile BA shooter list? A squad with three IC power axes with furious charge and FNP. With jump packs. Because that's all it takes to slow down a CC list enough to turn it into turkey shoot.

OH MY GOD!!!! You cant use THAT!, its a unit that is effective at close combat! with each new post, you prove our point for us more and more. You are arguing for our cause better than we are ourselves. Thank you so much.

I don't think many are saying CC is dead per say. The biggest problem I have noticed is that many CC units just don't have the means of reaching the enemy effectively anymore. Also, a single squad with 3 IC power axes, FC, and FNP with CC. That's not really what a CC army is. A CC army means a majority of your army wants to get in and beat them with stuff and poke them with the pointy end. This single thing added in is to respond to CC armies by stalling, slowing, and crippling enemy charges that make it through and heck to be honest it probably is a bit overcosted (then again BA do need an update)

No, no that's my counter assault unit in a shooty list. I don't try CC BA anymore. FMC spam is auto-lose right there.

Also, I have that guy on ignore for a reason. Yes, that unit is in my list, but it's just a hedge against players who foolishly still try to use CC as a primary. It's not in there as an actual CC threat. The unit is a 100% liability against Tau/Eldar. More guns would be better against them, since they can never reach them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You'll note in the post below yours that you're demonstrably wrong.

making that claim despite mountainour evidence proving otherwise, does not make it true. i have provided my evidence en-mass. Time for you to provide yours.

martel, you must be playing against real rookies. A proper shunt move will have at least 4 units of shunters in the enemy face, 2 Dreadknights, 2 interceptors. More if you go the 3 uit route and more if you combat squad them (i learned the hard way to not do that. te entire area you shunt to is cleared and then it is a matter of just hopping across the rest. If the opponent decides to run away, you have the game won as you chase down the runners picking them apart a lil at a time.

 StarTrotter wrote:

I don't think many are saying CC is dead per say. The biggest problem I have noticed is that many CC units just don't have the means of reaching the enemy effectively anymore. Also, a single squad with 3 IC power axes, FC, and FNP with CC. That's not really what a CC army is. A CC army means a majority of your army wants to get in and beat them with stuff and poke them with the pointy end. This single thing added in is to respond to CC armies by stalling, slowing, and crippling enemy charges that make it through and heck to be honest it probably is a bit overcosted (then again BA do need an update)

Unfortunately, that is exactly what they are saying. They pigeonhole an assault or close combat armies into the pure not a single gun in the army and if you do have it youd better not fire it kind of army and a shooty army as the exact opposite. That may have worked in earlier editions but currently, this is just not the case. Armies have to have elements dedicated to both aspects or units that can at least perform moderately well at both aspects.
Yes, some units that used to be a steal at their points are now overcosted and on the flip side units that used to be overcosted are now a steal. it is a matter of adapting and rebuilding to match. I remember in earlier editions where spawn flat out sucked while now they are the easiest way to slingshot your army commander into close combat without ever having a single shot fired at him on turn 2 (turn one if the enemy moves towards you far enough first). As much as they loath to admit it, strategy, tactics and terrain placement DO play a part in games today.

I notice that martel is still proving my point for me. never seen anyone make one claim and then work sooooo hard to prove himself wrong. lol

 EVIL INC wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You'll note in the post below yours that you're demonstrably wrong.

making that claim despite mountainour evidence proving otherwise, does not make it true. i have provided my evidence en-mass. Time for you to provide yours.

From what I have read I've seen anecdotes (aka hearsay) from you not hard evidence. The two are not the same. I would like to see some actual evidence.

I notice that martel is still proving my point for me. never seen anyone make one claim and then work sooooo hard to prove himself wrong. lol

Quit mocking a fellow wargamer and play nice. Martel732, while we have had our disagreements, is making a sound argument about the viability (or lack thereof) of melee-oriented armies in 6th. His argument is supported by tournament results, which, though the data can be skewed by hidden variables, is as close to hard evidence as is possible. He is not arguing that assault is without use in an absolute sense like you suggest. Look past your own argument to see the other person's side. It can be quite revealing.

CC would be incredibly useful against Tau if I could get enough meqs into *meaningful combats* with them. But that doesn't happen. CC with screening Kroot is *not meaningful*. Tau players are not going to offer up their Riptides right off the bat. If you shunt close enough to assault the Riptide, guess who eats the pie plate next?

so martel, care to mention a tournament you have won with your list?

FYI, planet bowling ball seems like the place you play the most...

the current rule book places a decent amount of terrain on every board, and technically I get to place half of it so it is advantageous to me...

and every time they get one turn of shooting at me... I am fully aware of that and have said so multiple times, its UNAVOIDABLE you WILL get shot at for one turn at least... some guys will die.. thats how it goes,
you seem to think that unless you can get everything into combat, with 0 casulaties, and without your opponent getting ANY chance to do anything about it, that CC tactics are dead...

which is just silly... he gets one turn to shoot me, but I ALSO get to shoot him... 10 presciented interceptors will put out almost 20 wounds on eldar/tau by themselves which is a wiped squad if they have 5+, and pretty much a wiped squad if they have 4+... look there went your bubble wrap/speed bump

and its very rare for them to shoot all 20-30 interceptors dead + the 3 DK's I can fit into a 1500pt list... so rare that even against the eldar that you contend I have no chance against, they dont wipe everything out in one turn... their they need to do 30 wounds to wipe a singe squad, and yet you think 50 wounds will wipe out 30 of the interceptors + 3 DK's...

just like your I1 power axes on your FnP MEQ's were your perfect answer to my i4 ap3 instant death causing guys...

totall BS... its like you dont get that your axes are the worst thing ever to deal with charging GK's, yet you said its the perfect solution... since you use that kind of logic, I am not suprised you seem to be being beaten all the time by tau/eldar.

maybe, as someone who gets beaten all the time by these armies, you should, oooo I dont know...

listen to someone who is REGULARLY walking through these armies... I am literally the reason why half the tau/eldar guys aroundhere swapped armies.. because my list is specifically designed to take advantage of shooty armies with 4+ saves or worse...

OH NOOO eldar can force 50 wounds? BFD.. I can force well over that with just the interceptors...and eldar dont have a 3+ ignoring most of them, they are fishing for 6's, and still have to deal with cover.


in REALITY, the TO's put all our boards at all our tournaments with about 25% coverage and at least one peice of LOS blocking terrain, so that shooty armies are not given an unfair advantage via planet bowling ball... we have province wide standards, so perhaps its just a problem wiht your tournaments if they are all on planet bowling ball....

even then, half the eldar/tau/taudar take either an aegis or a sky sheild, and I get to use that for cover as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
for the OP, and please, everyone just screaming about how CC sucks, go make a thread about it and post there, the OP wants to know how to make a CC list, so help him, or GTFO already, we already know your opinion is "CC is dead"


for the record if you had read my posts, its not an ork/gk army, its an ork army AND a gk shunt army...

Martel732 wrote:
I also notice your list is padded with non-meqs. However, footslogger Orks have their own set of problems. Like TFCs. Dirt cheap TFCs. Battlewagon Orks are better, because the battlewagon is undercosted pretty significantly imo.

FFS you dont even know what I am saying, dont read my post well enough to even get the basic concept that I am talking about both my GK army, and my ork army, not an alliancve between them...

you dont know what I say, but you are so sure im wrong *rolls eyes*

so in your world, where my GK is allied with orks (they are not) where close combat fails to damage units 80% of the time (total BS) where MEQ's with i1 power axes and FnP "own" MEQ's with i4 force weapons that do instant death... where 50 wounds from eldar kills 10 3+ save guys every time, even if they have cover... IE in total bizzaro world.

FYI
my ork army usually IS bw spam with green tide inside... even when its just boyz on foot, they do very well.