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Roxor is right although it's worth mentioning WHY it's not as good, so that you aren't just doing what the most recent person to post tells you to do in regards to taking Skyblight or not.

Skyblight got worse in 7th due to the fact that our FMCs got worse. For starters, Vektor Strike got worse for all of them except Flyrant for whom it is still a very NICHE utility (good V TEQ now). In no way does that make up for the hit Crones took.

On top of this, FMCs like Flyrant who pay a lot for WS7 and their attacks, can no longer reliably glide into combat (there is ways to make it happen, or take the risk, but it's an undeniable nerf). It was a really good way to squeeze a lot more damage out of your lists in final turns.

Then, every single unit gets scoring in 7th. Except for anything in the air. Even transports score. This indirectly hurts when anything else you could take instead got much better.

On the note of scoring, Skyblight Gargs are still good, but were better in 6th when they were the only Objective Secured units in the game. Now they are just FOC swapped to count as troops.

This compared to a ground list, which got largely better with the effectiveness of Zoeys actually loving the Psyker changes, Master of Ambush being huge, and being able to easily integrate Carnifexes cohesively, who are not only a good unit to synergise with both these buffs but are also a great way to make up for the massive board control Smash nerf (which affected both builds).

Skyblight doesn't suck though. Not at all, although you can do much better with Nids IMO. It's also kind of cheesy in the sense that you will lose to anyone who knows you are bringing it, p easy to counter. It's also a pretty inflexible build, and people don't enjoy playing against Flyer spam in general, which is the only way Skyblight is worth it. After all the nerfs it received it no longer dominates scoring like it once did, in fact it struggles to compete on this front. Winning through dominating the skies with 7-8 versatile anti-infantry/anti-tank FMCs and focusing anything with any sort of AA capability, will be the best way to victory with that formation.

Stand out formation is hands down Living Artillery.

Add to that, the fact that if you aren't taking Skyblight for max Flyrants and Crones, then competitively there is no point in taking it at all. The extra air saturation is the only reason for this formation at the moment, otherwise you are better off just taking a regular list of Flyers and having more control, E.G. Crones instead of Harpys.

Skyblight is an almost inflexible build in 7th.

Very good points about the FMCs survivability. I won't even disagree with them.

The Gargs however not so much. Yeah they are our best troop option - hands down. Probably the only ones playable on their own merits. Is it worth trading off the power difference between two Harpys instead of two Crones? Very very unlikely, you are better off just taking min troops and a bunch of good units if you aren't using it for the extra FOC slots, rather than having to pay tax for good scoring units, and still needing to take your min size troops anyway. Obj Scored is no longer unique to them and you can get much cheaper deepstriking objective secured units in Rippers who don't even need to worry about Synapse .

I don't know what's with the insinuations that I'm bandwagoning with Living Artillery, and against Skyblight, or whatever.

I've been speaking it's praise for literally as long as you have.



On top of that, while I admitted Skybliggt was a strong build yester-edition, I've never been a fan of how linear and stupid design it is, and I'm quite happy to see that it's no longer the go-to build this edition except for people who LIKE having their entire list written for them. It's not hate, it's me observing the capabilities of different units and builds from a competitive standpoint. It certainly isn't bandwagoning, and if it is, I'm the damn driver of the Wagon lol as evidenced here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/586955.page
If anything, you're just catching up to what I been saying for the longest, with this post.

I don't like Rippers either I was just saying that you can cover their role. Maybe you are right, OS Gary's respawning is good, I just don't think it's worth it

Everyone is weak v Vehicles, it's the main handicap of Tyranids. So while you can compare Harpys and Crones on paper, in practice you are making your list weaker. And I just don't see it being worth the Gargs, although I'll admit it's a tradeoff, it might be a more balanced one if Crones weren't crucial to skyforce Nids.

I gotta agree with tag, very strongly as well. Sure some thing like unlimited combined Arms Detachment make sense to rule against - it affects practically everyone equally, and nobody wants a practically FOC less game built around winning by spending the most money buying 8 copies of the 1 unit to win. Avoiding some things makes sense.

House ruling crap like levels of blasts because it makes Biovores and Wyverns stronger against certain armies is pretty pathetic however, as is doing it because that's the way it used to be. Demons got way stronger with summoning and they never used to have that - houserule out that, scoring Wave Serpents, let's stop flamers hitting units inside open-topped as its too strong vs Dark Eldar, let's just give Barrage weapons back pinning, wait why aren't we playing 6th?

You take the good with the bad. Sorry Tau everyone else has to. At least your skimmers got a bit more desirable again.

 jy2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

House ruling crap like levels of blasts because it makes Biovores and Wyverns stronger against certain armies is pretty pathetic however, as is doing it because that's the way it used to be. Demons got way stronger with summoning and they never used to have that - houserule out that, scoring Wave Serpents, let's stop flamers hitting units inside open-topped as its too strong vs Dark Eldar, let's just give Barrage weapons back pinning, wait why aren't we playing 6th?

Feel free to do so when you are the TO of your own tournament.

Nah, that would be terrible. You clearly missed that these were sarcastic theoretical changes aimed at showing the folly of the implementation of such house rules designed to overrule changes to a certain aspect of the game strictly to keep things as "they once were" or to keep things from getting stronger in game, without doing it to every single one of these changes at once. Leading to the conclusion that you would just be playing 6th anyway. Tailoring rule set changes due to opinions on things like that is without a doubt defined as tailoring, which is ok if you are going to do it everywhere and rebalance things in desperate need of it, but just house-ruling against the blast buff to ruinraiding really does seem to benefit specific lists more than others, most specifically the type of list dominant all of last edition.

It's a bad houserule, and since the topic was brought up I shared an opinion on it .

Mm time saving rule changes I can see easily justifiable as well, you didn't mention that as a reason in your original post and I didn't consider it, as such I went off the reasoning you did list which was that it makes it too strong and that it always was the other way. The first is good reasoning for a houserule, if in conjunction with a bunch of similar houserules not just one directly aimed at a single aspect of a few armies, leaving it quite an unfair ruling whether justified or not. The second line of reasoning you mentioned however I think is pretty counterproductive to say the least lol.

Oh well, doesn't affect me. Hoping that sort of stuff doesn't catch on though.

I must say I don't think making Blasts hit less units significantly speeds up the game at all, no more so than doing it for any other weapon type and I don't think it justifies the focused nerf towards it. Just seems like a holdover from 6th and a testament to the gun line players having a lot of trouble adapting their 6th ed army investments into 7th.

It's a charity tournament. Be fun.

So I don't know whether you want competitive tactical advice or not, or what restrictions this being a charity event puts on you, as much as I'd like to help.

Tag's advice is really good DARKSTAR. I'll add some inabit, but what Tag says is generally pretty accurate. Hormagants might not be great, but their definitely better than Reaper Flyrant, especially the role you want it for. Genestealers don't add as easily to a list as hgaunts who can be much more effective, Stealers are glass cannon units that are more Killy but need numbers and much support, Horms can just be slotted into a troop slot easily and still do what they need to. If you want to outflank, use Flyrant's upgrade to do it, but protip: the infiltrate is what makes stealers better not outflank. As far as Tyranids being dependant on powers, this hasn't been the case since our 5E codex when Flyrants Tyrants Swarmlord Tervigon relied on Iron Arms and other Biomancy utilities, nowadays our powers are kind of mediocre if spammed, other than Catalyst most rolls won't do their 50 pts worth unless you build for it. Taking 5-6 Zoeys is ok though if you are planning to take advantage of a few Onslaught rolls by pushing Dakkafexes or Tyrannofexes into shooting range turn 1. Master of Ambush warlord trait helps your chances of this too. Warp Lance is absolute trash and recieved no buff and just got even less reliable, and EAT your cast dice.

Yes, Crone got nerfed in 7th. No, Zoanthropes are not the answer to this.

Just to help you out, since your reasoning behind Zo's seems to largely revolve around them being able to Explode stuff. Do you know how unlikely it is that you will explode something with a Zo? For starters, you need 5 warp dice to even have a positive chance at successfully manifesting, 4 to make it 50/50. This converts to 1 out of every 2 attempting to manifest,, and half of them failing. 6 Zo's will successfully cast 1.5 warp Lances a turn, or 3 in two turns. 1 of these will miss. So now you are on a 1 hit a turn average with Warp Lance, for every 6 Zoeys. Then against AV14 you have 1/3 chance of either glancing or doing nothing. Then after all this happens and you get a pen, guess what - getting this pen tied up all the warp dice granted to you from all your zoeys, and your opponent can almost freely dedicate all his deny dice to this one power. But ASSUMING it still goes through - guess what, you have a 1/6 chance to explode. Hoorah if you do. And we haven't even mentioned the high perils chance yet either, or what 18" range and no drop pods anymore does for your damage projection. Firing Warp Lance with Zoanthropes is the equivalent of when AM roll to hit with that one laspistol in the 30 man infantry blob and hope for a result with it.

just to pre-emptively respond, to a few possible points on these stats - yes you could dedicate more dice to improving your chance to manifest (and subsequently perils), but consider that every charge you spend that they didn't bring to the pool themselves on making the decision to take Zoanthropes more cost effective (I.e. Your randomly generated dice or your Flyrant's) is making the Psykers that you no doubt already have in your army (Flyrants) equally less cost effective. This is one of the other ways to expect diminishing returns.

Compare that 2 hive Crones for the same price are doing 4 glances to AV14 (aka killing it) in the same space of time off Tentaclids alone, have 60" damage projection instead of 24" from the Zo's, and also have the option to Vektor Strike and Drool Cannon. Sure Tentaclids have limited use, but the use of them is actually doing something. And against AV12 or 10 side armour Vektor Striking + template rear armour is a much higher chance of Explode, you will on average get a pen AND a glance a turn, and that's after factoring in the penetration roll and not having to worry about Deny Dice or Jink / cover saves. Much better against heavy armor, much better against light. Crones may have gotten weaker at tank busting - that doesn't make them the worst thing at it in the dex.

The problem is how easy it is to be fooled by Zoanthropes, AV10 AP2 Lance and 3+ Invuls, a few of them must be able to manhandle anything with an AV right... But as seen, once you apply the damage though, and then after that apply that it's close range no mobility, range, you realise they are not Devastators, they do not fill an AT role in any way at all.

Thanks for the correction, I fail at math sometime. Mind sharing the math behind it?

Spoletta wrote:
Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:

4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2

Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.

If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.

Yes you will get better results with Zoeys in packs if casting Warp Lance, each success is multiplied by the size of unit.

Also I can't decipher your math could you please dumb it down for me, until you do I have no real response to this :(


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 xttz wrote:
This article lists odds of psychic powers / perils with various dice:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/05/summary-of-7th-edition-changes-psychic-phase/

For Zoanthropes the relevant numbers are:
3 dice = 50% chance, 3% perils
4 dice = 69% chance, 7% perils

Assuming the power is successfully cast (and not denied), each individual Zoanthrope has a 50% chance to score at least 1 HP of damage, with a 4% chance to cause an explode result. That means when using four dice, you're looking at ~35% odds to get 1 HP per Zoan.

Thanks for the math! In relation to my calc it turns it to 4 successful casts in two turns, 3 hits

 xttz wrote:
In practice I have found that finding enough dice to activate Warp Blast is rarely an issue. The Tyranid psychic table will often leave you with several powers that aren't worth using at a given time, leaving you with plenty of charge to use. I've never failed to activate this power under 7E, nor had it denied. Actually hitting the target is another issue, however...

This is all very anecdotal, I've experienced the exact opposite if it's relevant, haven't had a single success

 xttz wrote:
However you shouldn't start discounting Zoans just from these figures. The classic Lascannon in the hands of a marine has similar averages against AV14 (33% for 1 HP, 7% for explodes) and costs a similar amount of points. The Zoanthrope is a swiss-army knife in your Tyranid armoury. While it's not super-reliable at dealing with armour at range, it still has a bunch of other useful tricks that can help: an AP3 blast for nearby MEQs, additional warp charge, a bonus power, better psychic denial, cheap synapse boosts, and of course that invuln save.
Don't think of the Zoanthrope as a walking Lascannon. It's more like an Obliterator that can help you respond to many threats.

For starters, not once did I discount Zoeys, other than the Venomthrope I fill every spare Elite slot with Zo's. I said taking them as AT is bad, and taking them without building to capitalise on rolls of Onslaught isn't great either.
Also, I'm pretty sure that 300 pts of Lascannon Marines is doing more than 1 HP a turn to a Landraider. What's the exact price of 1, I can't check right now.

Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.

These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.






As to Spoletta, can you share the math for Zo's in a 3 man platform? Do I just multiply the percentage by 3/2 or does changing the amount of shots at the start have a deeper affect on the math? And can you share the math with say 4 or 5 casting dice? If I'm bringing Zopes as a multiple more costly unit it's obviously to take advantage of free Warp Lances and use the unit as dedicated AT, I'd pull some casting casting dice from elsewhere to make the 150 pt investment worth it.

 xttz wrote:


Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable

Indeed you did, except that misses the underlying point BEHIND the math, is that if you arent building to be capitalising on the Tyranid Powers, you shouldn't be taking them. Yes, if you have a bunch of crap powers, Warp Lance might be the best option. However, this doesn't make it any better or any more likely to get results - it just means you've wasted points on Zoanthropes. Warriors for starters give a much nicer Synapse support in that they provide pinning and a BIG melee threat, every game. In effect:

or have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on

This is a situation that should never come up. Pushing any of our close range Blunderbuss MCs into shooting range of the DZ turn 1 is huge. If they are deployed backfield it can secure second turn shooting on something that wouldn't be in range till turn 3. If you are playing a list with units that don't get a massive bonus to efficiency and threat range from Onslaught every game, then you shouldn't be taking Zoeys. They don't fill any role other than Synapse, with 1 random roll on a table with 3-4 useless results. They need to be looked at as additional rolls for Onslaught, with Catalyst to mitigate damage the times you don't, Paroxysm and the Horror being acceptable situationally, with the bonus of being a Synapse peg. Taking them for Synapse and hoping you roll Catalyst with a 20% chance to, or hoping to get all 3 in 18" range of a tank for two turns and rolling a 6 to explode, well doing this just cements the nerf to your army that IB can have. Synapse has now hurt you massively, because a lot of the time, in effect you'll have brought a list 150 pts smaller than your opponents - Zopes without Catalyst aren't doing gak, certainly not 200 pts worth of gak, or 6 warriors with 2x cannons worth of gak, if you will.

In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds

Ok, so you've spent 12-15 warp dice to generate two hits, assuming all succeed. Each sqad combined has brought a total of 6 dice to the pool. You've just taken all the dice from your Flyrants and your randomly generated dice on top the 6 they brought, and you still aren't in the cost effective zone. You've got a likely 2 hits for 150 pts, and your Flyrants are worse. They already have 4 rolls and cross field mobility - Flyrants are practically guaranteed to have something worth casting. For the games that they don't, blowing more points on a conduit to use their Warp Dice for Warp Lances is not very good justification - you are compounding the issue.


Also, about where you said my statement is anecdotal - that was the point, I even specifically stated that it was an anecdotal recount, saying I haven't succeeded a single time is just as irrelevant to a competitive discussion as saying it never gets denied, or that I get far better results / lucky rolls than the statistics say I should. For every person who gets a good roll someone else gets a bad one - it's the nature of the game. Using lucky rolls as justification to ignore the logic that it shouldn't happen - by all means, take whichever units you like the flavour of most, but in a competitive discussion, such fables are not a better quality argument than actual math statistics and logic.

 AesSedai wrote:
Here's a list I've been refining for a while, incorporating feedback from this thread and posters. Thoughts?

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Venomthrope, 45 pts

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Heavy Support: 1 Exocrine, 170 pts

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Fortification: 1x Imperial Bastion, 75 pts

Combined Arms Detachment:

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Heavy Support: 3 Biovore Brood, 120 pts

Really solid list. I think you know what you are doing with it and it doesn't look like it can be improved much. Congrats.

I personally don't like running more than 2 Flyrants, they are so pricey even if the first 2 are very necessary. If I had to make one suggestion it would be dropping the third Flyrant. Especially since he basically costs 80 pts extra in termagant tax, as without him you could be taking a Living Artillery Formation to give your Bivores and Exocrine Twin-Linked Blasts and Pinning, and the much larger threat of Warriors, with at least 1 twin-linked Pinning Venom Cannon. You could also take a Tyrannofex or another Exocrine or something with the left over points, these things are also great utility for Onslaught and Master of Ambush.


However, if you want the third Flyrant I can completely understand that, and its just a personal preference of my own, like I said you have a very cohorent list and obviously know what you are doing, and if three Flyrants is what you want, I honestly don't think that you can do it any better than this. Great list.


EDIT: I don't play at over 1850 pts ever, and at 2000 pts the extra Flyrant may be more important. I generally don't like Bastion at anything lower than 2000, but at 2000 I'd definitely take it. I actually have a 3rd Flyrant and a Bastion painted up that both go largely unused - I'm going to be giving your list a go next time someone asks me if its ok to bring 2000 pts for a battle.

That being said, we have really large REALLY large Tourney legal FOC formations, and I believe Orks have a larger FOC to begin with and their dataslates are inbound. I think it's kind of fair from an FOC standpoint for us at least atm.

That's true. But mostly to blame for that is the fact that they put the tiniest amount of effort possible into the writing of our dex. I want Mycetic Spores back ;(

tag8833 wrote:
Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?

I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.

I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.

I definitely prefer Gants, however if I see Rippers in somebody's list I don't bother mentioning it, barely a points difference and if they prefer Rippers more power to them.


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Good list for a triple Tyrant, but asI am not a fan of the triple tyrant I would swap the second CAD out for a Living Attillery node and maybe a Mawloc.

Yeah do this and drop the bastion and you literally have my 1850 pt list. Not bad advice here. But personal preference is a thing too, so up to you.

I think Hive Guard are very overlooked, especially in 7th where transports are everywhere as is the improved jink.

How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out

Zoeys are far from a "must have" depending on your list, you can easily slot Hive Guard in the elites if you build your list around it.

Thanks for the math.

I never said Zopes were a good comparison just that they could be dropped to make room in a list wanting HG, it was a response to the statement that they are a must have, when in reality they are a unit you need to think very hard about before including.

So those maths basically just say that HG either tie or seriously outshoot Carnifex against almost any vehicle in the game, other than some AV10 Side Armor as I think everything else has jink. They do it with 6 T6 W instead of 4, ignoring any natural cover as well, from an extra 6" range and can do it completely out of Line of sight. Worth mentioning that they still put 2 HP on a skimmer or Rhino in assault as well. They also don't take up a HS slot.

I think Carnifex is by far the better model. HG have their merits though especially if you don't have anymore Heavy slots open.

 winterman wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 winterman wrote:
As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.

The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.

Units of fexes are not all the great, especially running low synapse (lose more shots and take wounds on a failed IB -- single fexes loose out much less). Much prefer single fexes too for targeting purposes (rather shoot 12 and see where else to go rather than overload 24+ shots into a single unit -- especially with MSU on the rise).

That said you are right if carnifexes are better you can always unit em up to get more, but I still disagree with the premise that carnifexes are strickly better. In a world with eldar skimmer spam and the like I'd rather have a mix of both. Maybe more of a personal preference rather then a rule though.

Units of 2 are generally ideal, Carnifexes are best used abusing Master of Ambush or Onslaught wherever possible , the more you can push forward at once the better. 3 in a unit is definitely going to be overkill on some ideal targets are incapable of assaulting different directions.


However, the logic posted by tag is really... Bad. Sure you can take up to 9 Fexes, no more than 6 sensibly but max of 9. However It isn't called the Carnifex Support slot on the FOC. What if I want to take 2 Mawlocs? Or a Tyrannofex? Carnifexes do not completely outclass HG at all, while the Fex is a more versatile better unit generally, HG brings a bit to the table the Fexes do not, and they so it from a far less packed slot.


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.

Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.

Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.

Ok so let's just ignore all the logic I just shared, let's just do this the least effecient way possible, just because!

The point is how strong and limited MoA is for us. Take a 50 pt unit to babysit? Slot wasted. They kill that babysitter because you took units that relied heavily on it? Master of Ambush wasted. Compare it to what others do with it - pushing 4 Carnifexes and a Tyranno or Exocrine in to shooting range of everything turn 1. You are just using it to outflank a deep striker for less control, outflanking something that can already outflank, and outflanking a useless ass Synapse peg to support the two other terrible choices you've made so far. I'm not saying doing this is in game is going to make your play any weaker, I'm just saying it is what I said it is - a tremendous waste of one of possibly our biggest and best weapon. And then, actually Building your list with the intention of doing this is really bad strategic preparation.

Also, infiltrating turn 1 is much better against turtle lists than outflanking. In fact it's pretty much the best situation possible, it completely counters anyone trying to play off a range advantage, and steals the alpha off them and gives it to you.


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Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

That's all very nice and maybe some games you do need to walk the MC for whatever reason. This doesn't make wasting an outflanking slot on an MC that has deepstrike for the games you don't have to walk him across the board , any less of a bad decision.


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.




I've just been talking general strategy. But when it actually comes down to units themselves - Stealers are glass Cannons. Taking even less than 20 is a bad idea. They also rely on supporting units to even make it to combat and make use of the "cannon" part of their glass cannon nature. Slotting a couple in to fill points will just give your opponent 5-10 light infantry models to pop once they get slightly close. Going to ground on backfield objectives is what Rippers do, for a fraction of the price.

Trygons are currently competing only with Swarmlord for the worst unit in the codex. They cost just less than double what they should. Taking them in general isn't great, abusing tunnels for Endless Swarm is ok, planning to use MoA when possible to outflank them is just further throwing possible advantages in the trash instead of seizing them and playing to our strengths.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

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 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.

Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Hint - nowhere.

Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.

I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.

Fair enough. It was another poster who said that, I'm on the phone and made a mistake for "who said what". You can harp on about this largely irrelevant slip up and be a jerk to me about it, but it doesn't change the fact that you made the initial interpretation mistake, which was that he wasn't saying GtG with them, his post was in response to the poster that did. Also that Carnifexes are just as / far more aggressive than Trygons.

You are right on Stealers tho, they aren't ideal unless you are specialising your list for them. However, don't think bigger means better either - Trygon might be assured to do some damage or take some fire, however he does both worse than a Mawloc, who is 50 pts cheaper. Trygon might be guaranteed to haul some weight - however at just under 200 pts before upgrades, it's not much weight. 4 S6 hits every round of combat. Assuming you aren't taking on anything that matches his WS of course. If he is threatening anything with those armor ignoring hits (best returns vs Centurions) you have to hope he makes it into combat after them having at least 1 full turn of shooting on him.
Back when Trygons had re-rolls to hit and had the best smash in the game, they were excellent. They could throw down with infantry better, and melt any tank in range of a charge. They were very versatile heavy hitting, high cost MCs. However, they were either taken in triplets or left at home - and for very good reasoning. Those Centurions you want him to kill? He doesn't want them to die. You have to be in charge range to even threaten them, and guess what? Your opponent WILL have the firepower to kill at least 1 before it makes it into combat - you can argue that they won't, but it's a big risk to take for 200 pts. You can argue that they are a big distraction - but they aren't. They are the least aggressive MC in the HS slot, but yet they still pay more per T6 wound than a Tyrannofex, who also gets a 2+ save to boot. Distractions are only good if attracting fire to them is cost effective to you - eg having them shoot down a Mawloc, who pays 23 pts a wound compared to Tyranno's 29, and Trygons 32 - he pays more per wound than even a non upgraded Carnifex, who generally make it to combat the same turn. The returns just aren't that great. 4 S6 hits in combat a turn. Which IS on par with the damage output of our MCs except it's through the much less reliable and slower means of assault as opposed to shooting - and a pair of Carnifexes charging will likely get similar or better returns on infantry anyway, and unlike Trygons they threaten the crap out of vehicles. Trygons would be playable at 120 pts. At the moment, next to the SwarmLord they are the second worse model in the codex - at least a Pyrovore only wastes 40 of your points, Trygon costs 200. Third worse model if you include Trygon Primes

 xttz wrote:
The surprising star of the show was something unexpected - the Shrike unit. Despite losing half their number to some disastrously unlucky saves (failing 9 out of 10, even with 3+ cover) they managed to reach the Vanquisher squadron, destroying them in 3 rounds of combat. I'm definitely gonna try using these guys more often, they should be a good counter to some of the long range armour I often have trouble with, such as Predators and Whirlwinds.

Looking at your list I'm actually not at all surprised that these were your biggest earners. You had Warrior spam with nothing really taking more than imthe standard cannon, except the Shrikes (this is a good call btw). You're Dakkafexes only took 1 set of Devourers (although I can tell it's because you took them as HVC Fexes first to cover your lack of anti-tank) but didn't matter regardless, as they were your only 2 MCs (and with 4 wounds each) they are almost guaranteed to get wiped off the table in the first turn or so, even faster when you are up against Guard..

All in all looks like an interesting game. I would have to recommend getting wings and turning that Synaptic Swarm into a bunch of Shrikes. Same price, and at the cost of 6" Synapse they move 6" faster, projecting not only their Synapse further in the direction you want it as the Warriors, but also their damage. Jump move on Warriors is massive. They are THE close combat unit for Tyranids. Better than almost everything except maybe Stealers and Lictors who require much more focused lists with a lot of supporting units to be worth the points. Warrior / Shrile spam is fun because you can just MSU an entire list of them, and throw in some AT and you're done even if is gimmicky.

Either way, I would recommend rethinking the anti-tank Fexes. You saw why they didn't work in that game. In the current list I'd recommend eGrubs Tyrannos - not only are they the cheapest eGrubs platform in the codex, they are bloody tanky with 6 wounds AND the 2+ save. They will match pace with your Warriors, they will all make it to combat the same turn, TFex is very versatile and will generally even pop a non-Landraider transport the turn the Warriors want to assault it's contents, at worst they will charge and finish it off after. Not to mention eGrubs is your absolute best bet for killing a Land Raider anyway. But most importantly they don't die like 2 lone Carnifexes do. They are going to put some HP on some Armor SOMEWHERE before they go down - added bonus of absolutely melting GEQ blobs, and providing a nice cover save too if you have something you want to hide (good for blocking Line of Sight to a Venom, or giving 3+ cover to the squads with the Primes). They are just great Heavy Support in generally for a slow-n-steady infantry push like this.

Hope you don't mind my advice - I like the concept as a less aggressive, scoring list, I've played it myself before and first game went with the HVC Fexes myself (mostly because I owned the model off a bulk sale and figured they would be the best cheap, dedicated AT I could put in, while also getting the models off my shelf). You didn't explicitly ask for advice on the list, but hey, there's no reason that gimmicky can't be a solid build at the same time


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Comes in at 1500 on the nose, leaving us with 250 to spare, not quite enough for the Carnifex duo we'd like.

Suggestions to add? We're not taking our normal Mawloc, as it's too bulky.

Honestly I'd say drop a Flyrant for 2 Crones. If you can't do this, just make sure to take the Venom - you can bunch your FMCs up turn 1 they easily have the mobility to fan out and cover plenty ground, every wound you avoid before you get airborne will be critical. Remember, Flyrants have the durability if a Carnifex, for double the price - until they start forcing snapshots, they need to abuse that 2+ jink. 45 pts is a great investment considering you have 16 wounds tied up in 1000 pts. Every, single, Flyrant, wound is critical.

Take the Biovores, their alpha might be able to knock out some heavy weapon infantry before your opponent even shoots, further protecting your investments, or even further on jn the game. At the worst they can manhandle light infantry from long range, over the course of the game giving you less ground checks. They are even cost effective vs Marines even tho they get armour saves. Don't leave these guys at home.

Drop the Zoey, average model in lists that it's hood in, bad model in generalised lists, and especially bad when you have 4 Flyrants and 2 Crones (I can explain why they are worse in this list if you need me to). Don't take 5 Shrikes, take 3 with a Barbed Strangler or preferably more Biovores. If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Know what you are playing against at all?

Spoletta wrote:
136 pages, this post is starting to show some history...
For example look at the first 80 pages of:

warriors= plague, stay away

and now

If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Not saying that it's wrong, just interesting if you consider that S8 only increased with 7Th.

Warriors still aren't the optimal choice, and in this case I literally suggested them as the last thing he should take out of the list of about 3 or 4 different units he had the option of choosing from. That quote is pretty far out of context. Also, I don't think I personally was ever fully against Warriors ever since the release of 6th, I've been saying that they are the best Synapse unit in the dex next to Flyrants, and are also one of the first 3 units I include in almost every list ever since Living Artillery was released, so I'm probably not the best representation of the mass anyway.

Warriors are still overcosted units, and you should take as little as possible. But if you need more Synapse than what is currently being provided in your list by Flyrants, and can't make use of Zoanthropes as Onaught rolls efficiently, the Warriors are THE best option that actually add something somewhat worthwhile for the points.

EDIT: and if you want a twin linked pinning Exocrine and twin linked Biovores, the 100 pts of Warriors becomes a very solid investment - especially since they get their own freshly twin-linked and pinning Venom Cannon.

Spoletta wrote:
I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).

Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.

Well, Skyblight did get objectively worse, however this is mostly due to the sheep mentality. Living Artillery has been the staple of almost every list I've made since it's release. Amazing formation.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


We haven't used zoeys since the new codex... but was considering for synapse babysitting. WHy so bad, and why so bad in this list? TIA.

No problem - and anyone else who is still blindly filling out their Elite slots with Zopes every list, can probably take something out of what I'm about to say and at the very least would do well to think hard about it.

Zoanthropes are generally pretty bad because they don't do a lot. 50 pts for one isn't going to cripple your list obviously - but it's also going to do very little for you.They are best in lists that can make excellent use of the extra chance to roll Onslaught, I.e. getting Carnifexes and Tyrannos into range a turn early, possibly turn 1 (the best you can hope for in this list is getting a Flyrants into position to dump Dakka onto rear armour turn 1 on a vehicsitting on the edge of their deployment zone, with a high roll for run ofc. You can see how this is at best highly unlikely to be effective, and largely a useless roll). The reason I say this is so important for Zoeys, is because otherwise, they are doing NOTHING other than Synapse. The chances of doing anything with 1 Warp Lance a turn are phenomenally low - and that's assuming they are in range. They have a roll on a table with 5 other possible results. The Horror and Psychic Scream are almost guaranteed to do nothing - if Onslaught is another dead roll you, that's 3/5 dead rolls, with Paroxysm being situationally ok but not an excellent roll either, leaving a 1/5 chance of getting Catalyst, generally the best all round role.

However, even that is only useful situationally here, as it's generally best for adding a little survivability to a prime target, say an Exocrine or a Flyrant. However, your list runs four Flyrants! If you do successfully cast it on one of them, he can just focus one of 3 others! It might come in handy for saving a wound on a low health Flyrant, but even this makes it less useful than usual, as the lower the wounds the less the chance of FnP'ing one. E.g a Flyrant who takes 4 wounds with Catalyst on him will likely shrug one off, a Flyrant with 1-2 wounds left is quite likely to just die. There is something behind getting lots of Catalyst rolls and stacking it wit the 1 or 2 you rolled with your Flyrants, but with a 1/5 chance of rolling it, needing the Flyrants to roll it once or twice themselves, then needing to successfully cast and get past Deny dice multiple times, then having a further 1/3 chance of it doing anything, assuming you managed to put it on enough targets that they have to shoot one, it's hard to expect to see any sort of return on your 50 pts.

With a 2/5 roll for one of two HIGHLY situational Powers, Zopes are adding very little to your list bar Synapse. Then there's the fact that you can expect slightly diminishing returns per each Psyker added to your army (the nature of the maths behind the new Psychic phase) and you are putting him in after taking 4 Flyrants.

"But SHUPPET, I still need cheap Synapse, and while I see that Zoanthropes aren't ideal, the main reason I included him is for a cheap Synapse peg to support my actual army. Isn't everything else more expensive or worse?"
Good question, and it's the most commonly used logic behind taking Zopes. Instead, what you need to do with his 50 pts, is turn one of your termagant squads into a squad of warriors. 40+50=90, perfect amount for 3 Warriors. 10 more points and they can take a cannon.

"But I thought Warriors were overpriced terminators that get InstantDeathed by S8 or higher?"
Wrong. Well, actually correct. But for the sake of this comparison - 3 Warriors take as many S8 wounds to kill as a Zoanthrope - and that's assuming the Warriors don't get their save. In fact, because the entire Zope gets wiped on the first failed save, they do it more reliably. Then when you compare their survivability to say Bolter fire, they are much better, they have Terminator resilience vs light arms. And, they actually add something to your army. When Warriors get to CC, they can eat gak alive. Their 10 pts Cannon murders GEQ squads, and lays down pinning support (which has the added bonus of sometimes giving you a nasty combo with your highly mobile SitW).

"Ok, but it cost me my Termagant squad. Factoring that in they are nearly double the cost of my Zope"
Well, for starters i don't think any of us were expecting a whole lot from that min sized Term/Ripper squad that every sensible player uses to fill out our mandatory, crappy troop slots. However, if you are taking it into account, it's as simple of this - using 1000 pt games for a quick example, would you rather bring those 2 Zoeys and have effectively a -100 pt modifier on your list, or would you rather have that same 900 pt list, with 2 squads of Warriors instead of two squads of Termagants. That's Exactly the difference between the two. In no situation is having to take 50 pts of a model that adds nothing to your list outweigh taking 100 pts of models that add a lot of aggression to your list, and have to eat an armor ignoring S8 blast with 3 succesful hits and then wounds to even be considered a bad investment, as only the Achilles heel of instadeath can even make them slightly overpriced. Instead of letting Synapse cripple your lists, build to mitigate the damage it does. Bringing 100 pts less to the table has you already playing against the odds, you've let Synapse hurt you before the game has even begun.

Just quickly, to put a warriors cost effectiveness ratio into perspective against S8 shooting, the same amount of points in Warriors takes more S8 shots to kill than a Dakkafex, a Tervigon, and an Exocrine. Double the amount of a Flyrant (although without forcing snapshots ofc). They become Terminators to light Arms shooting, Terminators in CC if you avoid fists, who they eat as well as MCs do. They aren't ideal in general though, because S8 blasts do exist - however, they are infinitely better than useless Zoanthropes.



"But SHUPPET, you even posted a list yourself with Zoanthropes in it. When IS it sensible to take them?"
This is the critical thing right here. We can assume almost every game that Psychic Scream and the Horror are bad rolls, while Catalyst will be a good one. Paroxysm sitting somewhere in the middle of the fence (not amazing but useful enough to be justifiable if the other 2 rolls are good). So practically everything hinges on Onslaught. Is extra rolls for Onslaught after your Flyrants worth 50 points in your list? Well when I'm running 2x2man strong Carnifex broods, to me the answer to that question is "yes". It's not the only power that they can roll, however it is the power that decides whether it's a 3/5 chance of a dead roll with only a 1/5 chance got a result worthwhile, OR a 2/5 chance of a bad result with same chance to get something excellent, and a positive chance to get something at least useable. Even then, they only made the cut because I need Synapse, and in this list they outperform Warriors. Otherwise, I use Warriors. If I had 4 Flyrants, I'd use neither.



This is why I described them earlier as average in the lists they are best in, bad in general, and terrible in yours.

It's a shame that you have experienced such unfortunate luck with Warriors, or maybe I should be congratulating you on such positive luck with the Zoeys. However, in my wall of text post that I honestly can't blame you if you chose not to fully read it, I showed that maths dictates that on average a Zoey will take 3 S8 shots before dying - exactly the same as Warriors. You can rely on this being the most common outcome. Except unlike the Warriors, 1/3 of the time they will die after a single S8 shot - another 1/3 of the time they will take only 2. Warriors are actually more resilient to S8 shooting than a solo Zoey. Except of course if your meta spams S8-10 blasts, for whatever the unlikely reason.

In this situation, Zoeys become no more useful, and all the stuff about bringing a 900 pt list to a 1000 pt game still holds true. However, Warriors seem a little less desirable. I personally would not resort to nerfing the point size of my army, and relying on something a bit more hefty like a Tervigon for your Synapse in this situation. Considering he is about as durable as the Warriors and the Zope to standard S8 shooting, but instead eats 6 blasts instead of 2, and once again provides something to your army, eGrubs Termagant Swarms, assault support, and a whole lot of objective secured. Once again, it mitigates the damage Synapse does to your army instead of slightly crippling it, and actually provides a nice natural counter to all those expensive Vindicator blasts and whatever else, since the only real argument against taking Warriors here is meta gaming.