Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 SHUPPET wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.

Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.

Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.

Ambush is just one way to get there fast; however, if your opponent or LGS will allow you to utilize the formations in Valedor ( not saying use all of them in one game, but 1 I have found is usually okay with opponents) there are some rather interesting options for speed in there.

At my FLGS (Games Workshop, Raliegh) the GW store manager has already stated that he feels that all formations are available in normal games. This has brought a huge dynamic to our games and made it a lot more fun than bringing standard armies. Just an idea.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing.....

Wouldn't this be the perfect time to throw in a brood of 8 Genestealers or so? When points allow, I don't see why they get left out as often as they do. They aren't anything against vehicles, but big beasts like Wraithknights and other Wound heavy things can be crunched down with poisoned rending claws. Add talons and it's an expensive unit, but still less than a Trygon if you skip the Broodlord. With Infiltrate already so could be effective as a turn 1 strike against that type of unit if all the variables swing your way. Turn 1 Tyranids, cover within 12" and that sort of thing. Or am I off base with this idea? I haven't had the chance to try it out.

Can't assault T1 after Infiltrating so it'd be a T2 threat at the earliest.

rigeld2 wrote:Can't assault T1 after Infiltrating so it'd be a T2 threat at the earliest.

He's right, Turn 1 assaults are a thing of the past when infiltrating.

SharkoutofWata wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing.....

Wouldn't this be the perfect time to throw in a brood of 8 Genestealers or so? When points allow, I don't see why they get left out as often as they do. They aren't anything against vehicles, but big beasts like Wraithknights and other Wound heavy things can be crunched down with poisoned rending claws. Add talons and it's an expensive unit, but still less than a Trygon if you skip the Broodlord. With Infiltrate already so could be effective as a turn 1 strike against that type of unit if all the variables swing your way. Turn 1 Tyranids, cover within 12" and that sort of thing. Or am I off base with this idea? I haven't had the chance to try it out.

I believe I am one of the few people who still run a brood as you described simply for that purpose. Genestealers bring a lot to the Tyranid army, but are often considered sub par. This is mainly due to their point's cost which is significantly higher than it should be. IMHO, a small unit of genestealers with a Broodlord will add a threat to your army that has to be considered even if they can't assault turn 1. They can still claim objectives, receive a bolstered cover save (when going to ground), they are great at tying up an opponent for a turn, and they aren't super expensive. I would support running them as inexpensive as you can get though. Instead of 8 genestealers, I'd suggest you run 6 genestealers + broodlord (with Scything talons and toxin sacs). Total points is 158 I believe? I think that the neatest thing you can do with them though is to split your opponent up. Genestealers can force your opponent to remove his concentrated fire from your Carnifexen broods and other tough guys because even if your genestealers lose combat/die in the process they give your other units time.

Remember, there's nothing that says "Haha" like declaring your infiltrating them against your opponent, who then takes into account that they'll be infiltrating by protecting his shooting units/putting everything in cover and then infiltrating them into your own backfield on an objective.

For 158 points I'd rather have another Dakkafex instead of a backfield unit that's just going to babysit an objective.

I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.

Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.

Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.

Ok so let's just ignore all the logic I just shared, let's just do this the least effecient way possible, just because!

The point is how strong and limited MoA is for us. Take a 50 pt unit to babysit? Slot wasted. They kill that babysitter because you took units that relied heavily on it? Master of Ambush wasted. Compare it to what others do with it - pushing 4 Carnifexes and a Tyranno or Exocrine in to shooting range of everything turn 1. You are just using it to outflank a deep striker for less control, outflanking something that can already outflank, and outflanking a useless ass Synapse peg to support the two other terrible choices you've made so far. I'm not saying doing this is in game is going to make your play any weaker, I'm just saying it is what I said it is - a tremendous waste of one of possibly our biggest and best weapon. And then, actually Building your list with the intention of doing this is really bad strategic preparation.

Also, infiltrating turn 1 is much better against turtle lists than outflanking. In fact it's pretty much the best situation possible, it completely counters anyone trying to play off a range advantage, and steals the alpha off them and gives it to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.

That's all very nice and maybe some games you do need to walk the MC for whatever reason. This doesn't make wasting an outflanking slot on an MC that has deepstrike for the games you don't have to walk him across the board , any less of a bad decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.




I've just been talking general strategy. But when it actually comes down to units themselves - Stealers are glass Cannons. Taking even less than 20 is a bad idea. They also rely on supporting units to even make it to combat and make use of the "cannon" part of their glass cannon nature. Slotting a couple in to fill points will just give your opponent 5-10 light infantry models to pop once they get slightly close. Going to ground on backfield objectives is what Rippers do, for a fraction of the price.

Trygons are currently competing only with Swarmlord for the worst unit in the codex. They cost just less than double what they should. Taking them in general isn't great, abusing tunnels for Endless Swarm is ok, planning to use MoA when possible to outflank them is just further throwing possible advantages in the trash instead of seizing them and playing to our strengths.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.

Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Hint - nowhere.

Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.

I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.

So yesterday I played a bit of a gimmick list using the big box of Warriors I picked up from ebay a while back. I don't remember the exact list but it was along these lines:

1 Prime with Miasma Cannon and 2 Warrior broods

Synaptic Swarm formation (Barbed Stranglers for all Warrior broods)

6 Shrikes with ScyTals, Rending Claws and AG

2 Hive Guard units

Venomthropes

2 Dakkafexes with HVC + Devs

I was little perturbed to find my opponent had brought a armour-heavy IG list: 2 Punishers (with Pask), 2 Vanquishers and 2 Vanilla Russes along with a Manticore, plus some Guardsmen + Chimera. My first thought was that my largely multi-wound T4 list would be toast, especially against so much AV14. But I played anyway to see what I could salvage. The scenario gave us 3 objectives, and the IG player got first turn.

The first couple of turns went just as expected - anything the Russes had line of sight to just evaporated. I'd lost both Fexes and nearly half of the Warriors by the end of turn 2. However after this point, things changed rather dramatically. I managed to reach the ruins in the centre of the board and from there I was able to hold 2 objectives while keeping most of my army out of sight of the tanks. The Hive Guard took up carefully secreted positions putting them in range of 2 Russ squadrons. With a little luck they brought down Pask in one turn, as he found it impossible to keep his front armour facing both broods.
My Warriors unleashed long range fire onto his Guardsmen, wiping out everything but a few command squad guys. One sergeant heroically tried to take the backfield objective solo, trying to go unseen behind the shell of Pask's Russ, but the Hive Guard easily dealt with him. By the end of turn 5 the IG player still had 3 Russes alive, but only 3 guardsmen were left to contest objectives from the Warrior broods now emerging from cover. My opponent conceded at this point rather than play turn 6 - I had more than enough Troops to hold 2 objectives in addition to Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. A pretty surprising result for this gimmicky list, especially for me.

The surprising star of the show was something unexpected - the Shrike unit. Despite losing half their number to some disastrously unlucky saves (failing 9 out of 10, even with 3+ cover) they managed to reach the Vanquisher squadron, destroying them in 3 rounds of combat. I'm definitely gonna try using these guys more often, they should be a good counter to some of the long range armour I often have trouble with, such as Predators and Whirlwinds.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.

Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.

Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Hint - nowhere.

Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.

I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.

Fair enough. It was another poster who said that, I'm on the phone and made a mistake for "who said what". You can harp on about this largely irrelevant slip up and be a jerk to me about it, but it doesn't change the fact that you made the initial interpretation mistake, which was that he wasn't saying GtG with them, his post was in response to the poster that did. Also that Carnifexes are just as / far more aggressive than Trygons.

You are right on Stealers tho, they aren't ideal unless you are specialising your list for them. However, don't think bigger means better either - Trygon might be assured to do some damage or take some fire, however he does both worse than a Mawloc, who is 50 pts cheaper. Trygon might be guaranteed to haul some weight - however at just under 200 pts before upgrades, it's not much weight. 4 S6 hits every round of combat. Assuming you aren't taking on anything that matches his WS of course. If he is threatening anything with those armor ignoring hits (best returns vs Centurions) you have to hope he makes it into combat after them having at least 1 full turn of shooting on him.
Back when Trygons had re-rolls to hit and had the best smash in the game, they were excellent. They could throw down with infantry better, and melt any tank in range of a charge. They were very versatile heavy hitting, high cost MCs. However, they were either taken in triplets or left at home - and for very good reasoning. Those Centurions you want him to kill? He doesn't want them to die. You have to be in charge range to even threaten them, and guess what? Your opponent WILL have the firepower to kill at least 1 before it makes it into combat - you can argue that they won't, but it's a big risk to take for 200 pts. You can argue that they are a big distraction - but they aren't. They are the least aggressive MC in the HS slot, but yet they still pay more per T6 wound than a Tyrannofex, who also gets a 2+ save to boot. Distractions are only good if attracting fire to them is cost effective to you - eg having them shoot down a Mawloc, who pays 23 pts a wound compared to Tyranno's 29, and Trygons 32 - he pays more per wound than even a non upgraded Carnifex, who generally make it to combat the same turn. The returns just aren't that great. 4 S6 hits in combat a turn. Which IS on par with the damage output of our MCs except it's through the much less reliable and slower means of assault as opposed to shooting - and a pair of Carnifexes charging will likely get similar or better returns on infantry anyway, and unlike Trygons they threaten the crap out of vehicles. Trygons would be playable at 120 pts. At the moment, next to the SwarmLord they are the second worse model in the codex - at least a Pyrovore only wastes 40 of your points, Trygon costs 200. Third worse model if you include Trygon Primes

OK, so we need to rework our old Skyblight list, which has worked out pretty well for us. Why? 'Cos we're going to California, plan on picking up some games, and haven't got the space for all those damn' Gargoyles.

We've been discussing a list based around this:

Dakka flyrant - eGrubs
Dakka flyrant - eGrubs
Dakka flyrant - eGrubs
Dakka flyrant - eGrubs

10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants

Hive Crone
Hive Crone

1 x Zoanthrope

Comes in at 1500 on the nose, leaving us with 250 to spare, not quite enough for the Carnifex duo we'd like.

Suggestions to add? We're not taking our normal Mawloc, as it's too bulky.

Current thoughts are to add one venomthrope, more devourers, and maybe swap out a termagant brood for warriors. We have more zoanthropes and a couple biovores available, as well as five Shrikes, which do look cool even if they don't do much. If we were at home we'd think about a third Crone for that Ride Of The Valkyries vibe, but for this trip it's 6 FMC max.

 xttz wrote:
The surprising star of the show was something unexpected - the Shrike unit. Despite losing half their number to some disastrously unlucky saves (failing 9 out of 10, even with 3+ cover) they managed to reach the Vanquisher squadron, destroying them in 3 rounds of combat. I'm definitely gonna try using these guys more often, they should be a good counter to some of the long range armour I often have trouble with, such as Predators and Whirlwinds.

Looking at your list I'm actually not at all surprised that these were your biggest earners. You had Warrior spam with nothing really taking more than imthe standard cannon, except the Shrikes (this is a good call btw). You're Dakkafexes only took 1 set of Devourers (although I can tell it's because you took them as HVC Fexes first to cover your lack of anti-tank) but didn't matter regardless, as they were your only 2 MCs (and with 4 wounds each) they are almost guaranteed to get wiped off the table in the first turn or so, even faster when you are up against Guard..

All in all looks like an interesting game. I would have to recommend getting wings and turning that Synaptic Swarm into a bunch of Shrikes. Same price, and at the cost of 6" Synapse they move 6" faster, projecting not only their Synapse further in the direction you want it as the Warriors, but also their damage. Jump move on Warriors is massive. They are THE close combat unit for Tyranids. Better than almost everything except maybe Stealers and Lictors who require much more focused lists with a lot of supporting units to be worth the points. Warrior / Shrile spam is fun because you can just MSU an entire list of them, and throw in some AT and you're done even if is gimmicky.

Either way, I would recommend rethinking the anti-tank Fexes. You saw why they didn't work in that game. In the current list I'd recommend eGrubs Tyrannos - not only are they the cheapest eGrubs platform in the codex, they are bloody tanky with 6 wounds AND the 2+ save. They will match pace with your Warriors, they will all make it to combat the same turn, TFex is very versatile and will generally even pop a non-Landraider transport the turn the Warriors want to assault it's contents, at worst they will charge and finish it off after. Not to mention eGrubs is your absolute best bet for killing a Land Raider anyway. But most importantly they don't die like 2 lone Carnifexes do. They are going to put some HP on some Armor SOMEWHERE before they go down - added bonus of absolutely melting GEQ blobs, and providing a nice cover save too if you have something you want to hide (good for blocking Line of Sight to a Venom, or giving 3+ cover to the squads with the Primes). They are just great Heavy Support in generally for a slow-n-steady infantry push like this.

Hope you don't mind my advice - I like the concept as a less aggressive, scoring list, I've played it myself before and first game went with the HVC Fexes myself (mostly because I owned the model off a bulk sale and figured they would be the best cheap, dedicated AT I could put in, while also getting the models off my shelf). You didn't explicitly ask for advice on the list, but hey, there's no reason that gimmicky can't be a solid build at the same time


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Comes in at 1500 on the nose, leaving us with 250 to spare, not quite enough for the Carnifex duo we'd like.

Suggestions to add? We're not taking our normal Mawloc, as it's too bulky.

Honestly I'd say drop a Flyrant for 2 Crones. If you can't do this, just make sure to take the Venom - you can bunch your FMCs up turn 1 they easily have the mobility to fan out and cover plenty ground, every wound you avoid before you get airborne will be critical. Remember, Flyrants have the durability if a Carnifex, for double the price - until they start forcing snapshots, they need to abuse that 2+ jink. 45 pts is a great investment considering you have 16 wounds tied up in 1000 pts. Every, single, Flyrant, wound is critical.

Take the Biovores, their alpha might be able to knock out some heavy weapon infantry before your opponent even shoots, further protecting your investments, or even further on jn the game. At the worst they can manhandle light infantry from long range, over the course of the game giving you less ground checks. They are even cost effective vs Marines even tho they get armour saves. Don't leave these guys at home.

Drop the Zoey, average model in lists that it's hood in, bad model in generalised lists, and especially bad when you have 4 Flyrants and 2 Crones (I can explain why they are worse in this list if you need me to). Don't take 5 Shrikes, take 3 with a Barbed Strangler or preferably more Biovores. If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Know what you are playing against at all?

136 pages, this post is starting to show some history...
For example look at the first 80 pages of:

warriors= plague, stay away

and now

If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Not saying that it's wrong, just interesting if you consider that S8 only increased with 7Th.

So, interesting to see big mobs of Stealers (20-odd, presumably including a Broodlord) get mentioned. I realise this may well only be theoretical, and may also not be very competitive... but how would you go about building a list around a big mob of Stealers?

Spoletta wrote:
136 pages, this post is starting to show some history...
For example look at the first 80 pages of:

warriors= plague, stay away

and now

If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Not saying that it's wrong, just interesting if you consider that S8 only increased with 7Th.

Warriors still aren't the optimal choice, and in this case I literally suggested them as the last thing he should take out of the list of about 3 or 4 different units he had the option of choosing from. That quote is pretty far out of context. Also, I don't think I personally was ever fully against Warriors ever since the release of 6th, I've been saying that they are the best Synapse unit in the dex next to Flyrants, and are also one of the first 3 units I include in almost every list ever since Living Artillery was released, so I'm probably not the best representation of the mass anyway.

Warriors are still overcosted units, and you should take as little as possible. But if you need more Synapse than what is currently being provided in your list by Flyrants, and can't make use of Zoanthropes as Onaught rolls efficiently, the Warriors are THE best option that actually add something somewhat worthwhile for the points.

EDIT: and if you want a twin linked pinning Exocrine and twin linked Biovores, the 100 pts of Warriors becomes a very solid investment - especially since they get their own freshly twin-linked and pinning Venom Cannon.

I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).

Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Honestly I'd say drop a Flyrant for 2 Crones. If you can't do this, just make sure to take the Venom - you can bunch your FMCs up turn 1 they easily have the mobility to fan out and cover plenty ground, every wound you avoid before you get airborne will be critical.

Take the Biovores, their alpha might be able to knock out some heavy weapon infantry before your opponent even shoots, further protecting your investments, or even further on jn the game..
Drop the Zoey, average model in lists that it's hood in, bad model in generalised lists, and especially bad when you have 4 Flyrants and 2 Crones (I can explain why they are worse in this list if you need me to). Don't take 5 Shrikes, take 3 with a Barbed Strangler or preferably more Biovores. If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.

Know what you are playing against at all?

Thanks... our first practice game Sat is against Tau, so we'll go back to Biovores. Time to actually assemble them and model new heads, as we'd proxied in the past. Likewise we'll bring out the Venomthrope, which could have saved our last defeat (two out of three flyrants killed in first turn shooting).

We haven't used zoeys since the new codex... but was considering for synapse babysitting. WHy so bad, and why so bad in this list? TIA.

Spoletta wrote:
I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).

Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.

Well, Skyblight did get objectively worse, however this is mostly due to the sheep mentality. Living Artillery has been the staple of almost every list I've made since it's release. Amazing formation.

Living Artillery is fantastic and its flexible. Skyblight is great but it dictates what your army is going to be. Living Artillery, IMO, is something I bring along just about always because it's a fantastic utility formation. There aren't many times I don't want psuedo-TL biovores, Exocrine, and a Tyranid warrior cannon.

I also typically have a brood of impaler cannon hive guard running around with them. It makes a flexible and aggressive firebase. I also tend to give the warriors rending claws so they can assault or counter assault anything that threatens the gun beasts.

BTW thanks for the support and advice on the solo zoas vs brood zoas a couple of pages back. I haven't had a chance to give try them solo but I've been tinkering with a list.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


We haven't used zoeys since the new codex... but was considering for synapse babysitting. WHy so bad, and why so bad in this list? TIA.

No problem - and anyone else who is still blindly filling out their Elite slots with Zopes every list, can probably take something out of what I'm about to say and at the very least would do well to think hard about it.

Zoanthropes are generally pretty bad because they don't do a lot. 50 pts for one isn't going to cripple your list obviously - but it's also going to do very little for you.They are best in lists that can make excellent use of the extra chance to roll Onslaught, I.e. getting Carnifexes and Tyrannos into range a turn early, possibly turn 1 (the best you can hope for in this list is getting a Flyrants into position to dump Dakka onto rear armour turn 1 on a vehicsitting on the edge of their deployment zone, with a high roll for run ofc. You can see how this is at best highly unlikely to be effective, and largely a useless roll). The reason I say this is so important for Zoeys, is because otherwise, they are doing NOTHING other than Synapse. The chances of doing anything with 1 Warp Lance a turn are phenomenally low - and that's assuming they are in range. They have a roll on a table with 5 other possible results. The Horror and Psychic Scream are almost guaranteed to do nothing - if Onslaught is another dead roll you, that's 3/5 dead rolls, with Paroxysm being situationally ok but not an excellent roll either, leaving a 1/5 chance of getting Catalyst, generally the best all round role.

However, even that is only useful situationally here, as it's generally best for adding a little survivability to a prime target, say an Exocrine or a Flyrant. However, your list runs four Flyrants! If you do successfully cast it on one of them, he can just focus one of 3 others! It might come in handy for saving a wound on a low health Flyrant, but even this makes it less useful than usual, as the lower the wounds the less the chance of FnP'ing one. E.g a Flyrant who takes 4 wounds with Catalyst on him will likely shrug one off, a Flyrant with 1-2 wounds left is quite likely to just die. There is something behind getting lots of Catalyst rolls and stacking it wit the 1 or 2 you rolled with your Flyrants, but with a 1/5 chance of rolling it, needing the Flyrants to roll it once or twice themselves, then needing to successfully cast and get past Deny dice multiple times, then having a further 1/3 chance of it doing anything, assuming you managed to put it on enough targets that they have to shoot one, it's hard to expect to see any sort of return on your 50 pts.

With a 2/5 roll for one of two HIGHLY situational Powers, Zopes are adding very little to your list bar Synapse. Then there's the fact that you can expect slightly diminishing returns per each Psyker added to your army (the nature of the maths behind the new Psychic phase) and you are putting him in after taking 4 Flyrants.

"But SHUPPET, I still need cheap Synapse, and while I see that Zoanthropes aren't ideal, the main reason I included him is for a cheap Synapse peg to support my actual army. Isn't everything else more expensive or worse?"
Good question, and it's the most commonly used logic behind taking Zopes. Instead, what you need to do with his 50 pts, is turn one of your termagant squads into a squad of warriors. 40+50=90, perfect amount for 3 Warriors. 10 more points and they can take a cannon.

"But I thought Warriors were overpriced terminators that get InstantDeathed by S8 or higher?"
Wrong. Well, actually correct. But for the sake of this comparison - 3 Warriors take as many S8 wounds to kill as a Zoanthrope - and that's assuming the Warriors don't get their save. In fact, because the entire Zope gets wiped on the first failed save, they do it more reliably. Then when you compare their survivability to say Bolter fire, they are much better, they have Terminator resilience vs light arms. And, they actually add something to your army. When Warriors get to CC, they can eat gak alive. Their 10 pts Cannon murders GEQ squads, and lays down pinning support (which has the added bonus of sometimes giving you a nasty combo with your highly mobile SitW).

"Ok, but it cost me my Termagant squad. Factoring that in they are nearly double the cost of my Zope"
Well, for starters i don't think any of us were expecting a whole lot from that min sized Term/Ripper squad that every sensible player uses to fill out our mandatory, crappy troop slots. However, if you are taking it into account, it's as simple of this - using 1000 pt games for a quick example, would you rather bring those 2 Zoeys and have effectively a -100 pt modifier on your list, or would you rather have that same 900 pt list, with 2 squads of Warriors instead of two squads of Termagants. That's Exactly the difference between the two. In no situation is having to take 50 pts of a model that adds nothing to your list outweigh taking 100 pts of models that add a lot of aggression to your list, and have to eat an armor ignoring S8 blast with 3 succesful hits and then wounds to even be considered a bad investment, as only the Achilles heel of instadeath can even make them slightly overpriced. Instead of letting Synapse cripple your lists, build to mitigate the damage it does. Bringing 100 pts less to the table has you already playing against the odds, you've let Synapse hurt you before the game has even begun.

Just quickly, to put a warriors cost effectiveness ratio into perspective against S8 shooting, the same amount of points in Warriors takes more S8 shots to kill than a Dakkafex, a Tervigon, and an Exocrine. Double the amount of a Flyrant (although without forcing snapshots ofc). They become Terminators to light Arms shooting, Terminators in CC if you avoid fists, who they eat as well as MCs do. They aren't ideal in general though, because S8 blasts do exist - however, they are infinitely better than useless Zoanthropes.



"But SHUPPET, you even posted a list yourself with Zoanthropes in it. When IS it sensible to take them?"
This is the critical thing right here. We can assume almost every game that Psychic Scream and the Horror are bad rolls, while Catalyst will be a good one. Paroxysm sitting somewhere in the middle of the fence (not amazing but useful enough to be justifiable if the other 2 rolls are good). So practically everything hinges on Onslaught. Is extra rolls for Onslaught after your Flyrants worth 50 points in your list? Well when I'm running 2x2man strong Carnifex broods, to me the answer to that question is "yes". It's not the only power that they can roll, however it is the power that decides whether it's a 3/5 chance of a dead roll with only a 1/5 chance got a result worthwhile, OR a 2/5 chance of a bad result with same chance to get something excellent, and a positive chance to get something at least useable. Even then, they only made the cut because I need Synapse, and in this list they outperform Warriors. Otherwise, I use Warriors. If I had 4 Flyrants, I'd use neither.



This is why I described them earlier as average in the lists they are best in, bad in general, and terrible in yours.

I went up against a scary 2850 Ndis list. 3 Tyrants and 2 Tervigons were the beef of it. I only lost because there were too many gaunts on the board for me to kill, and I couldnt get them. I would really take 2 Tervigons for a TAC army so you have a great horde.

Thanks for that comprehensive, well-argued post, Shuppet. Having three warriors as a cornerstone of the troops feels much better already. One barbed strangler, and rending claws I guess.

Can't run Shrikes as we only have five warrior/shrike models; think we'll run two biovores (have a third but I'm planning to swap him out eventually), and use the balance to add numbers and devourers to the termagants.

I'll chime in with the "Great post SHUPPET". Throwing units into a list "because the internet said to" is not going to end well.

Ive been using Warriors a lot since the Codex came out. It tends towards cost, if my list is tight I will drop gants and a zoey to pop in a Warrior brood. They're just harder to get rid of synapse wise.

If there are spare points, then they usually get rending claws and 1 LW/BS warrior with scytals. Unless their initiative is higher, many players dont like treading near a unit like that, especially MC's.

 Iechine wrote:
Ive been using Warriors a lot since the Codex came out. It tends towards cost, if my list is tight I will drop gants and a zoey to pop in a Warrior brood. They're just harder to get rid of synapse wise.

If there are spare points, then they usually get rending claws and 1 LW/BS warrior with scytals. Unless their initiative is higher, many players dont like treading near a unit like that, especially MC's.

My general issue with warriors is that their performance is very much dependant on the local meta.

My local meta? Imperial Knights, 3 SM players who field Vindicators, 2 CSM players who do the same, a Tau player who loves his hammerheads, an Adepta Soritas player of triple Exorcist and a daemon player who tends to run triple soulgrinder.

That is an awful lot of S8 firepower that gets sent my way. Now thing is, gaunts can spread out and Zoeys tend to pull the old Storm Shield trick of being annoyingly jinky with their invuln saves to survive a storm. But warriors...the few times I have played with them they've sort of just...exploded. Messily. Knights in particular are rough on them as there's very little they can do in return plus Paladins with mutliple S8 ordnance templates do a quick number on Warrior broods.

Actually, knights are just rough on 'nids in general. Incredibly difficult to crack open with our trust dakkafexes and flyrants and assaulting them with a Carnifex is tantamount to suicide - an I4 melee D-weapon hitting on 3s is just not cricket. Really, Knights are the one pain that I do not fancy...

And the local meta has several of the SM players murmuring more about them. Ew. Ironically my poor neglected Death Guard did just fine against Knights through objective snatching with Plague Marines... (Which is funny as my Death Guard were largely shelved due to me strictly not caring for the ZOMG SPAMDRAKES or the fact my planned Heldrake build put me back £50 a drake...)

In part my army is limited by the fact that I want to field things actually painted- I essentially have one good weekend of painting left along with whatever can be done during the next few weeks.

What is painted at the moment?

2 Flyrants - Twin devourers
Hive Tyrant - Scytals, LW & Bonesword
2 Tyrant Guard
Tyranid Prime - Twin Boneswords

30 Termagants
14 Hormagaunts
9 Genestealers - Scytals, Broodlord
6 Tyranid Warriors - 3 Deathspitters, 2 Rending Claws, 1 Venom Cannon

4 Zoanthropes
2 Venomthropes

3 Raveners - Rending Claws

3 Carnifexes - 2 x 2 Scytals, 1 Crushing Claws
Trygon

Scythed Hierodule

And what is currently at the point where a weekend of painting can get them done comfortably and within reasonable standards (i.e. not driving me to tears with boredom of painting flesh tones.)?

Flyrant -Twin Devourers
Tervigon

3 Ripper Swarms
2 Warriors - 1 Rending Claws, 1 Barbed Strangler

2 Biovores
Trygon

Barbed Hierodule

Now, I don't mention gaunts because a - I have 15 of the buggers at stages where I could whip them out in half a day and b - same with hormagaunts. Gaunts are also mindnumbingly dull to paint.

I don't even mention what I actually have....because there's rather a lot. I'll list things here for completion - not what they have or quanties, but just so people know what I could punish myself with.

Swarmlord conversion
Deathleaper conversion
Old One Eye
Footrant - Twin Devourers, HVC
Footrant - Scytals
3 LW Tyrant Guard
2 LW Tyrant Guard
2 Crushing Claws Tyrant Guard
1 Tyrant Guard

More Gaunts than I ever wanted - only 20 Devilgaunts though
Hormagaunts
Rippers
Genestealers (lots actually. For my shame. It's what happens when you buy 5 of the 5th edition Tyranid Assault brood boxes...)
Tyranid Warriors - some variety - Bunch of Deathspitters, bunch of devourers

2 Zoanthropes
5 Lictors

7 Raveners - Rending Claws
5 Scytal Raveners
Red Terror
3 Shrikes - Twin Boneswords
18 Gargoyles (really don't fancy these at the moment. I need to mass magnetise their bases)
2 Crones

1 Carnifex - 2 x Scytals
3 Carnifexes - Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - Crushing Claws, HVCs
2 Carnifexes - Barbed Stranglers
5 Biovores
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray

Scythed Hierodule

Not a bad pool of things. Not including things unassembled. Note, I loathe Genestealer assembly. I hate them. Ruleswise they got gutted and assembly wise...ugh, fiddly little seperate legs!

But yeah, want to actually field something fully painted for a change...just to feel all fuzzy and proud. I could probably churn out a bunch this weekend but I'm trying to keep my paintload light - basing a Hierodule, the last highlights of a Flyrant and some Rippers and Biovores is not too rough for me to do.

I did, as a completely bizarre chain of though while helping a friend move realise I could do a sillier 1800 point army

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Venomthrope

Barbed Hierodule

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Scythed Hierodule

But then I realised that was definately not cricket.

It's a shame that you have experienced such unfortunate luck with Warriors, or maybe I should be congratulating you on such positive luck with the Zoeys. However, in my wall of text post that I honestly can't blame you if you chose not to fully read it, I showed that maths dictates that on average a Zoey will take 3 S8 shots before dying - exactly the same as Warriors. You can rely on this being the most common outcome. Except unlike the Warriors, 1/3 of the time they will die after a single S8 shot - another 1/3 of the time they will take only 2. Warriors are actually more resilient to S8 shooting than a solo Zoey. Except of course if your meta spams S8-10 blasts, for whatever the unlikely reason.

In this situation, Zoeys become no more useful, and all the stuff about bringing a 900 pt list to a 1000 pt game still holds true. However, Warriors seem a little less desirable. I personally would not resort to nerfing the point size of my army, and relying on something a bit more hefty like a Tervigon for your Synapse in this situation. Considering he is about as durable as the Warriors and the Zope to standard S8 shooting, but instead eats 6 blasts instead of 2, and once again provides something to your army, eGrubs Termagant Swarms, assault support, and a whole lot of objective secured. Once again, it mitigates the damage Synapse does to your army instead of slightly crippling it, and actually provides a nice natural counter to all those expensive Vindicator blasts and whatever else, since the only real argument against taking Warriors here is meta gaming.

If any of you guys want to check it out, I'm putting up some Battle Reports from the ATC this past weekend with my Bugs.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605239.page

To everyone else who responded, thanks for the appreciation for the towering wall of words and taking the time out to read it, I've been meaning to write something definitive on Zoanthropes for a while now as it's been a hot topic for a while, constantly popping up and still the source of much confusion. It is all just my perspective of course, however I do try to back up all my definitive perspectives with fairly irrefutable logic hope the guide helps put a few Nid players back on even footing with their opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
So, interesting to see big mobs of Stealers (20-odd, presumably including a Broodlord) get mentioned. I realise this may well only be theoretical, and may also not be very competitive... but how would you go about building a list around a big mob of Stealers?

Step 1: Take a lot of Stealers. Too little is easy to mitigate the hell out of the entire investment by chewing through them in the early game. They need to be the core of your list to work. Genestealers require a heavy investment of support to work at all, and work best in higher numbers, so there is no reason not to spend every spare point on them once you cover your bases. They are a very "in for a penny, in for a pound" style unit. Your blob needn't be one large unit, MSU will probably get larger returns for greater spread, better abuse of infiltrate. Forcing more Markerlights helps as well.

Step 2: Take pinning, your Stealers are paying a bundle for their I6 but do not have assault grenades, forcing GtG with pinning is the only way around this. Luckily we have possibly the best pinning jn the game, Living Artillery, Shrikes with Barbed Stranglers, even taking a 6 Broodlords for "The Horror" combined with Deathleapers Assassins formation -1 LD bubble.

Step 3: Take at least 1 Venomthrope. This is a given for Nids, but even more critical here. Not only do they rely heavily on cover saves with their paperthin and easily ignored armor save, they can also easily abuse the Shrouded, by electing to Go to Ground when shot at, and keeping a squad of Synapse (often the Warriors, even the ones from Living Artillery) just out of range, they can claim a 4+ cover save out in the open, 2+ cover save standing behind something, then have the Synapse unit walk into range in your turn, provide Fearless making you ignore the effects of GtG, allowing you to move up, back out of Synapse to either charge or rinse and repeat next turn. Taking a screen of some nature is strongly worth considering for this purpose as well. Possibly both if you melt a small squad and your Synapse jocky are Shrikes. Venomthropes also defend your investment with defensive grenades and making them counts-as in terrain, to help in multiple ways against the counter-charge. They are so good here that you should strongly consider 2 or even 3.

Step 4: Take some anti-tank. You can put glances on most transports in assault with Stealers - if you can catch them in good time. You don't want to auto-lose to a couple of Landraiders either, or even have no means of dealing with just 1. Your Stealers are glass cannons, and your army won't live through the game if you can't throw them into combat ASAP, nor if you win all your possible combats and have to sit around trying to GtG on objectives vs a vehicle heavy list. Flyers being a severe weakness. Compare the survivability of 30 stealers to 40 Termagants. Then think about how quickly you've seen 30 man squads of Terms chewed through before. Crones fill the Anti-tank and anti-Air role well, and they are cheap. Hive Guard are obviously a strong pick for their ability to manhandle transports and ignore jink (on Flyers as well). Tyrannofexes are nice for cheap eGrubs, and super durable mobile cover for Stealers as well as being able to block Line of Sight to a Venom, however you'll probably need something to deal with flyers. Some combination to your taste (and meta) of the above 3 is probably your best bet. You probably want to stick to one Flyrant for your mandatory HQ, as the second one is even more overpriced than usual if you aren't dependant on it's Synapse (which you aren't). Playing your first one super careful including HIGHSPEEDSPACEMANUEVRES such as flying him off the board until hostile Flyers arrive, is probably better than taking a second one over say a Crone and squad of HG.

Step 5: Deploy and use infiltrate wisely. I can't tell you much more than this, as it's per game by game basis and you'll have to make a call. E.g you want to use it to get as close as possible, as safely as possible. You probably don't want to deploy outside of Venomthrope range verse say a wall of Marines on the DZ with Heavy Bolters and Vindicators, but it's probably going to be worth it to close the massive gap as much as possible against Tau deployed entirely backfield, who would likely ignore your cover regardless. Anything else is in between, decide what to do each game.





Stealer shock is fun and rewarding, and most games feel as though the outcome relied heavily on your decisions as opposed to the dice. I'm going to post some photos of my heavily converted Stealer army once I get the charger for my camera. I feel as though it's about time I proved I'm not just a grizzly old strategist and shared my love for the hobby and the bugs with you guys

What Shuppet says is quite true, Zoans and warriors have different roles, take one that is good for your army...or take them both, actually the warriors themselves are good targets for Onslaught. They want to be in meele as fast as possible, but they also can't discard those pinning shots.

If you find yourself in dire need of synapse then taking both is viable.