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 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Yep. That's what I looked at. Barbie brings 12 S10 shots on something or 6 S10 shots on two different things. The scythed Hierodule...brings a S6 hellstorm template. Fair enough but the Knights/Land Raiders/AV 13 vehicles of the world aren't threatened by it and assaulting...leads to tarpitting.

The Saturation...well, mostly comes from watching how people here play. The Zoeys are now becoming threats and Barbie will get attention just for living. If she soaks up 1900 points worth of fire in 2 turns and dies....well, she'll have done her job.

Yep, the "Shiny Model" strategy...it is a classic.

I played my first tactical objective game at the weekend.

Must say, I like T.O much more than previous scoring systems. 1850 VS Whitescars net list (Bikes, Flyers and TTCannons oh my) - might be because I ran away with the game though, my opponent conceded my turn 4 with me sitting on 11 VP and him 8.

I used a mesh list with Dark Eldar (Because... favourite models all on one board!)

1x HT devs
2x Zoan
1x Venomthrope
2x Ripper broods
1XCrone
11X Gargoyles
1XExocrine
3x Biovores
2x Carnifex brood

Archon
Trueborn +Venom
Warriors + Raider
Warriors + Raider

Deadbeats of the match were Biovores and Crone, Man of this match was Carnifexs

Found that playing objectives well was a boost, also even with WS mobility to get to certain objectives was not easy.

I controlled 3 objectives on my side throughout the game, giving me access to 3 cards per turn (The one I couldn't shake being opponent fails a moral/LD test...). by turn 4 I held 4 objectives and would have controlled the last 2.

Anyway, like T.O and 7th quite a bit, can see swarms actually being able to do much better than MC lists for some missions. Powers are much harder to get off though. Raiders were worth the Darklances with how many Warp lance opportunities lost.

Crones - oh Crones. You 6th ed. wonders who have now fallen far out of favour. The kicker on the Vector Strike hurts. AP2 does not compensate the loss of 3 potential autohits - sure, you can potentially explode a tank but you could wreck one before with massed glances.

Also - TOs help Tyranids a lot. TOs help a lot of people.

Fun Fact - Imperial Knights don't actually have a 'Troops' choice. Every choice on their Force Org is a Knight. They got their own special category!

Which is hilarious as they don't have Objective Secured. That allowed my poor neglected CSM army to actually win a game against them (god bless TOs) simply through lone Plague Marines denying and claiming objectives!

Thing is...I'm curious as to how my Tyranids will fare.

Anyhow, back to my list - things pointed out - target saturation being the big one.

Also, 14 Warp Charge is a bit rude.

Debating the following...

Keeping the Flyrants - too much value in their mobility and the assassin has proven himself in the past (literally took down the GUO LoW in a game by multiple IDs to stack the wounds). Plus there are Warlord traits that benefit challenges and he works that way.

Might drop the 4 solo Zoeys to two broods of 2 for added durability - not sure it's worth sacrificing 4 Warp Charge points (as well as 2 additional Warp Lances that can be fired at seperate targets).

Debating dropping the Reaper and the Biovores - freeing up 105 points. Might use that to bulk up the gaunt broods and perhaps to put down a beefy Ripper Swarm with Deep Strike.

Opinions?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Crones - oh Crones. You 6th ed. wonders who have now fallen far out of favour. The kicker on the Vector Strike hurts. AP2 does not compensate the loss of 3 potential autohits - sure, you can potentially explode a tank but you could wreck one before with massed glances.

Also - TOs help Tyranids a lot. TOs help a lot of people.

Fun Fact - Imperial Knights don't actually have a 'Troops' choice. Every choice on their Force Org is a Knight. They got their own special category!

Which is hilarious as they don't have Objective Secured. That allowed my poor neglected CSM army to actually win a game against them (god bless TOs) simply through lone Plague Marines denying and claiming objectives!

Thing is...I'm curious as to how my Tyranids will fare.

Anyhow, back to my list - things pointed out - target saturation being the big one.

Also, 14 Warp Charge is a bit rude.

Debating the following...

Keeping the Flyrants - too much value in their mobility and the assassin has proven himself in the past (literally took down the GUO LoW in a game by multiple IDs to stack the wounds). Plus there are Warlord traits that benefit challenges and he works that way.

Might drop the 4 solo Zoeys to two broods of 2 for added durability - not sure it's worth sacrificing 4 Warp Charge points (as well as 2 additional Warp Lances that can be fired at seperate targets).

Debating dropping the Reaper and the Biovores - freeing up 105 points. Might use that to bulk up the gaunt broods and perhaps to put down a beefy Ripper Swarm with Deep Strike.

Opinions?

Don't drop the Biovores. they give us a chance to hit light infantry early in the game, hide from heavy rounds and draw opponents towards your table half to make better use out of our shorter range shooting.

Zoanathropes, for me at least are now beacons of synapse that provide warp charge points. I don't think I've used their warp lance yet ( I'm new to 'bids!)

I feel strongly towards running the following;

2X zoanthrope for durability, warp charge and synapse.

1 zoanthrope for extra warp charge contribution and synapse.

I am starting to think though that it might be time to drop 1 of the 2 Zoays as it really just doesn't serve much of a purpose the way I play at the moment.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The Tyranid Warlord Traits - aren't as bad anymore. They were never fantastic but at least the 1 allows you to turn woods into dangerous terrain (which the majority of our units will ignore due to MTC) as opposed to free hits on anything going in it.

I think the Tyranid Warlord traits are far worse than they were in 6th. The Strategic table so so very, very powerful. Basically any roll on that table is better than the best roll on the Tyranid table in most places, and if we don't get what we want, we can reroll.

I guess in your locality, you are seeing forests more in 7th. I'm certainly not. It has probably been 20 games since I saw a forest on the table. Even if I did seem them, that would be a terrible warlord trait compared to infiltrating 3 units + your warlord.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax

I guess if this works for you. Seems like a bad choice. Even if it kills a Wraith Knight it is barely worth it. A better option to kill wraith knights is 20 Poison Gaunts.

I would drop
10 Termagaunts
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
1 Biovore
for
20 Poison Hormagants
Dakka Fex / TFex / Crone.

After all a Reaper Flyrant has to Glide rather than Swoop to be effective. At the very least throw E. Grubs on him to discourage charges by things like Knights. For minimum changes drop 1 biovore and add E. Grubs to all of your flyrants.

tag8833 wrote:
I guess if this works for you. Seems like a bad choice. Even if it kills a Wraith Knight it is barely worth it. A better option to kill wraith knights is 20 Poison Gaunts.

I would drop
10 Termagaunts
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
1 Biovore
for
20 Poison Hormagants
Dakka Fex / TFex / Crone.

After all a Reaper Flyrant has to Glide rather than Swoop to be effective. At the very least throw E. Grubs on him to discourage charges by things like Knights. For minimum changes drop 1 biovore and add E. Grubs to all of your flyrants.

That's where things differ. You are the only person to suggest Hormagaunts here in...what, 100 pages? I find hormagaunts have a problem. They need synapse babysitters, they are far, far too fragile and far too open to blasts in general. I certainly don't think they're worth taking out a Tyrant for. Sure, they can throw out a number of poisoned attacks at something. If they get there in any sort of reasonable numbers. Which with blasts, flamer templates, massed bolter fire...they won't. To me they're a step below genestealers because at least genestealers can either outflank or infiltrate and have T4 to try and survive some of the fire they attract. Hormagaunts? Yeah, no. Used them before, watched them die in droves for minimal effect. Definately not worth the loss of a Flyrant - a Flyrant can comfortably bully small-mid sized units on his own, provides 2 warp charge dice (remember, dice are important now to us), expands the synapse bubble and is somewhat more survivable.

Dakkafex/Tfex/Crone - Well, no to the Crone straight off. Already discussed how 7th neutered them. You can argue for haywire tentaclids which I have yet to see actually hit anything because BS 3 with a limited, single shot weapon is...ew. Dakkafexes...mmm. I used to run a number of them but the problens were that anything with a higher I and WS (so, the entire space marine army) and a melee weapon with shred or a decent number of S5-S6 attacks will bully the everliving hell out of a Dakkafex.

Tyrannofexes...hmm. Yeah, they're sturdy but cost a significant amount more. Not sure where I could wriggle one of these in.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
That's where things differ. You are the only person to suggest Hormagaunts here in...what, 100 pages? I find hormagaunts have a problem. They need synapse babysitters, they are far, far too fragile and far too open to blasts in general. I certainly don't think they're worth taking out a Tyrant for. Sure, they can throw out a number of poisoned attacks at something. If they get there in any sort of reasonable numbers. Which with blasts, flamer templates, massed bolter fire...they won't. To me they're a step below genestealers because at least genestealers can either outflank or infiltrate and have T4 to try and survive some of the fire they attract. Hormagaunts?

20 Hormagaunts will easily kill 2 Wraith Knights. They are fast and objective secured, and you have an overabundance of synapse in your list. 4 Zoeys, 2 flyrants. It is a unit that would add good synergy to your list and great ability to kill wraith knights and score objectives. I ran the math a few pages back. Genestealers take far less firepower to kill, and put out less damage to a wraith knight (Though they are slightly ahead against a Riptide. HGaunts are way, way better against a Great Unclean one or Demon Prince.

You were using a Reaper Flyrant that can no longer effectively fly. It can still Jink, and if it moves at the speed of a venom, get a 2+ cover, but I thought there was a better way to go with 245 points. Since you noted fear of MC's as your reason for taking the reaper flyrant, I assumed they were a big problem in your expected meta. They aren't a significant issue in mine, because I tend to tarpit them with gargoyles or kill them with dakka. I have much more trouble dealing with vehicles and the recent uptick in Walkers and Objective Secured Drop Pods.

You may feel that HGaunts are an ineffective use of points, and sure, they could be, but not near as ineffective as a reaper flyrant. Especially against Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar which are going to be the biggest challenge to your list.

Lastly, psychic dice are important, that is true, but there is a diminishing level of returns for each additional psychic dice. If you have 1 dice and 1 ML of psycher, you are going to reasonably be able to cast 1 spell. If you have 6 and 6 ML of psycher, now you are only able to cast about 3 spells. If you have a few dice, you spells are going to get denied, and zoeys are such good warp charge batteries. But paying 245 points for 2 more dice when you already have 12 is not really a great argument.

Tag's advice is really good DARKSTAR. I'll add some inabit, but what Tag says is generally pretty accurate. Hormagants might not be great, but their definitely better than Reaper Flyrant, especially the role you want it for. Genestealers don't add as easily to a list as hgaunts who can be much more effective, Stealers are glass cannon units that are more Killy but need numbers and much support, Horms can just be slotted into a troop slot easily and still do what they need to. If you want to outflank, use Flyrant's upgrade to do it, but protip: the infiltrate is what makes stealers better not outflank. As far as Tyranids being dependant on powers, this hasn't been the case since our 5E codex when Flyrants Tyrants Swarmlord Tervigon relied on Iron Arms and other Biomancy utilities, nowadays our powers are kind of mediocre if spammed, other than Catalyst most rolls won't do their 50 pts worth unless you build for it. Taking 5-6 Zoeys is ok though if you are planning to take advantage of a few Onslaught rolls by pushing Dakkafexes or Tyrannofexes into shooting range turn 1. Master of Ambush warlord trait helps your chances of this too. Warp Lance is absolute trash and recieved no buff and just got even less reliable, and EAT your cast dice.

@DarkStarSabre

I'd have agree with running too many zoans. Psychic dice is important, but you'll going to find that the best Tyranid builds won't really be relying on massed psychic dice. There is a point of diminishing returns with regards to Tyranid psykers unless they have multi-purpose roles (i.e. tyrants). In the case of your list, you really don't need that many beacons of synapse.

BTW, I'd recommend swapping out at least 2 units of termagants for 2x3 deepstriking ripper swarms.

Hmm, playing with ideas to drop out the assassin Flyrant...

20 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs

And that leaves 85 points to hand.

I don't want to sacrifice further warp charge (and my over abundance of Synapse has saved me so many times in the past because I've found people will start blitzing synapse when they realise objectives are being kept in check by them)...and really, I don't want to Field a Tyrannofex without taking a second template on him to add to the fun he brings.

One problem with dropping the 10 gaunts - it breaks the rule of the secondary detachment which effectively would cull the versatility of the solo zoanthropes and second solo venomthrope.

So this 85 points spare...

Part of me wants to play with Ripper Swarms. My brain even thought of DSing Toxic Swarms onto things and giggling...until I realised 2 things. First, they're I2 -which means against the big meaty things they will be...somewhat lacklustre as they will strike after them and lose 3 bases before striking due to ID. Ouch.

But perhaps...

Ok, revised list.

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin Sacs

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

2 Biovores

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

2 Biovores

Also Shuppet, a rebuttal to Warp Lance as others have pointed out.

Outside of Melee we have no way of reliably smushing vehicles anymore. Vector Strike Crones got hit down to a single strike on ground targets and almost none of our high strength weapons are AP 2 or AP 1 for the all important dice roll of a 7+ to cause the explosion.

In 6th a Crone could Vector Strike most vehicles off the battlefield - to the extent that I ran 2 Crones and would start strafing the enemy back line from Turn 2 onwards in 6th, deleting Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators or even Leman Russes and Knights through massed S8 hits on side armour. Now? Well, now the best a Crone gets is a single hit that he has to hope penetrates and then hope he rolls well on to do the damage. Before when you could potential put 4 S8 hits on something's side you could be confident enough that your other firepower could take it out if you didn't.

HVCs could do damage with their high strength blast template...not a lot but it added to the weight of fire theory.

Now? Now all we have that can one shot a vehicle is a Warp Lance. The Barbed Hierodule is in the list because multiple S10 shots certainly helps via hull point stripping, much like the old Crone Vectors but now vehicles are a pain. Especially as they score. Especially as they are harder to get rid of. Our Rupture Cannons and HVCs can't even wreck a Rhino or an Ork Trukk - and those vehicles can still score (with Objective Secured!) so long as they are mobile.

I've found if I get one successful Warp Lance off people tend to throw dice at it in order to prevent us possibly getting that lucky shot on a vehicle. Having 4 sources of a Warp Lance makes people even more paranoid.

A S5 AP3 blast template isn't anything to sniff at either.


So yes, new list.

We'll take the 20 Hormagaunts out for a spin and add 2 more biovores.

I fully expect Vehicles to be a royal pain - in particular knights.

The local meta tends to have the following....

Space Marines - as far as the eye can see - we have 1 Salamander, 1 Minotaur and 1 Raven Guard player. We also on occasion have Dark Angels and a pair of Blood Angels armies.

Knights - we have one Knight player so far. Lone Knights have been spotted creeping in as well.

Eldar - I know of 3 Eldar players. Two run Mechdar, one was known to bring multiple Wraithknights.

Tau - At least 2 Tau players, one Riptide heavy and the other suit heavy.

Chaos - One Daemon player with a perverse love of Nurgle, 2 CSM players - as a side note I expect Heldrakes to follow Crones into decline. Losing the 360 degree line of sight will be the thing that kills them. A crippled Vector strike doesn't help either.

We also have oddities in Orks, Adeptas Soritas and Necrons.

Hmm. I don't like this being muddled when I have things to paint.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Hmm, playing with ideas to drop out the assassin Flyrant...

I feel like we bullied you into it. You can play what you want, it will be aces against certain match-ups. (Ones who can't ignore cover and don't have widely available poison)

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
One problem with dropping the 10 gaunts - it breaks the rule of the secondary detachment which effectively would cull the versatility of the solo zoanthropes and second solo venomthrope.

Take hormagaunts in place of Termgagaunts. Same number of troops. Still legal detachments.

You still have the carnifexes in there right? You should have points for them.

Another option besides Poison HGaunts is just tarpitting units. Some people aren't ok with that preferring to kill things than just tie them up. Gargoyles are the best tar-pits. non-upgraded Hormagaunts are second best. If you wanted to take 20 Gargoyles instead of 20 Poison gaunts, you could tarpit one big MC and save 40 points. Drop 3 biovores and you have room for another Dakkafex.

Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...

Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.

As above...

Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.

Replace with..

18 Toxic Hormagaunts

Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.

So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable

2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)

Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.

Base List is currently at....

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

2 Biovores Note one might be dropped

Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...

Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.

As above...

Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.

Replace with..

18 Toxic Hormagaunts

Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.

So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable

2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)

Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.

Base List is currently at....

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

2 Biovores Note one might be dropped

Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.

Well...as you know, I run an Assassin, so I like her just fine. You might get better use of your points if you break down the upgrades though...Reaper is ,what 45? So Bonesword/Lashwhip, Adrenal runs 35, toss in a Thorax Hive, and I don't think you'll miss Shred all that much... Make her Toxic, and you get back into re-roll city, and save 5 points...? So, you can trim, and add to get a "custom fit" I find that Vector Strike, a Template, and a "Insta-Killy" weapon always add a lot to my play.

Remember that poison got nerfed in 7th (as far as rerolls go). Only get rerolls if S>T now - before it was S=T.

rigeld2 wrote:
Remember that poison got nerfed in 7th (as far as rerolls go). Only get rerolls if S>T now - before it was S=T.

Hence my personal preference for Reaper over LW/BW and Toxin.

Forcing rerolls via shred is better than flat wounding on 4+ at times, strange as that sounds. It improves the chances of a 6 for the ID to kick in.

I may consider the assassin again. Just wanting a general consensus from folk. Remember, you don't always have to fly. Target saturation is interesting that way.

My friend had to bail on the 2500 pt Daemon game, but this Saturday I met an old Eldar player (dudes in his 50's) with a great attitude and we settled on a 3k game this Saturday, so hopefully I'll have an epic battle.

Yes, Crone got nerfed in 7th. No, Zoanthropes are not the answer to this.

Just to help you out, since your reasoning behind Zo's seems to largely revolve around them being able to Explode stuff. Do you know how unlikely it is that you will explode something with a Zo? For starters, you need 5 warp dice to even have a positive chance at successfully manifesting, 4 to make it 50/50. This converts to 1 out of every 2 attempting to manifest,, and half of them failing. 6 Zo's will successfully cast 1.5 warp Lances a turn, or 3 in two turns. 1 of these will miss. So now you are on a 1 hit a turn average with Warp Lance, for every 6 Zoeys. Then against AV14 you have 1/3 chance of either glancing or doing nothing. Then after all this happens and you get a pen, guess what - getting this pen tied up all the warp dice granted to you from all your zoeys, and your opponent can almost freely dedicate all his deny dice to this one power. But ASSUMING it still goes through - guess what, you have a 1/6 chance to explode. Hoorah if you do. And we haven't even mentioned the high perils chance yet either, or what 18" range and no drop pods anymore does for your damage projection. Firing Warp Lance with Zoanthropes is the equivalent of when AM roll to hit with that one laspistol in the 30 man infantry blob and hope for a result with it.

just to pre-emptively respond, to a few possible points on these stats - yes you could dedicate more dice to improving your chance to manifest (and subsequently perils), but consider that every charge you spend that they didn't bring to the pool themselves on making the decision to take Zoanthropes more cost effective (I.e. Your randomly generated dice or your Flyrant's) is making the Psykers that you no doubt already have in your army (Flyrants) equally less cost effective. This is one of the other ways to expect diminishing returns.

Compare that 2 hive Crones for the same price are doing 4 glances to AV14 (aka killing it) in the same space of time off Tentaclids alone, have 60" damage projection instead of 24" from the Zo's, and also have the option to Vektor Strike and Drool Cannon. Sure Tentaclids have limited use, but the use of them is actually doing something. And against AV12 or 10 side armour Vektor Striking + template rear armour is a much higher chance of Explode, you will on average get a pen AND a glance a turn, and that's after factoring in the penetration roll and not having to worry about Deny Dice or Jink / cover saves. Much better against heavy armor, much better against light. Crones may have gotten weaker at tank busting - that doesn't make them the worst thing at it in the dex.

The problem is how easy it is to be fooled by Zoanthropes, AV10 AP2 Lance and 3+ Invuls, a few of them must be able to manhandle anything with an AV right... But as seen, once you apply the damage though, and then after that apply that it's close range no mobility, range, you realise they are not Devastators, they do not fill an AT role in any way at all.

WC2 cast at 50% is 3 dices, not 4. Not saying that zoans are master exploders thanks to this correction...

On the reaper argument: shred is strictly better than poison at S6 and higher (so it's good on primes too). Same performance against T 3,4,5 vastly better against T6, slightly better against T7 (4+ vs rerollable 5+) and worse against T8. The only T8 guy around though is the WKnight, which fears that ID AP3 quite a bit, making the shred (again) better than poison. That increased performance and the +1 strenght is quite worth the +10 points for me.

Thanks for the correction, I fail at math sometime. Mind sharing the math behind it?

This article lists odds of psychic powers / perils with various dice:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/05/summary-of-7th-edition-changes-psychic-phase/

For Zoanthropes the relevant numbers are:
3 dice = 50% chance, 3% perils
4 dice = 69% chance, 7% perils

Assuming the power is successfully cast (and not denied), each individual Zoanthrope has a 50% chance to score at least 1 HP of damage, with a 4% chance to cause an explode result. That means when using four dice, you're looking at ~35% odds to get 1 HP per Zoan.

In practice I have found that finding enough dice to activate Warp Blast is rarely an issue. The Tyranid psychic table will often leave you with several powers that aren't worth using at a given time, leaving you with plenty of charge to use. I've never failed to activate this power under 7E, nor had it denied. Actually hitting the target is another issue, however...

However you shouldn't start discounting Zoans just from these figures. The classic Lascannon in the hands of a marine has similar averages against AV14 (33% for 1 HP, 7% for explodes) and costs a similar amount of points. The Zoanthrope is a swiss-army knife in your Tyranid armoury. While it's not super-reliable at dealing with armour at range, it still has a bunch of other useful tricks that can help: an AP3 blast for nearby MEQs, additional warp charge, a bonus power, better psychic denial, cheap synapse boosts, and of course that invuln save.
Don't think of the Zoanthrope as a walking Lascannon. It's more like an Obliterator that can help you respond to many threats.

Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:

4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2

Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.

If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.

Spoletta wrote:
Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:

4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2

Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.

If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.

Yes you will get better results with Zoeys in packs if casting Warp Lance, each success is multiplied by the size of unit.

Also I can't decipher your math could you please dumb it down for me, until you do I have no real response to this :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
This article lists odds of psychic powers / perils with various dice:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/05/summary-of-7th-edition-changes-psychic-phase/

For Zoanthropes the relevant numbers are:
3 dice = 50% chance, 3% perils
4 dice = 69% chance, 7% perils

Assuming the power is successfully cast (and not denied), each individual Zoanthrope has a 50% chance to score at least 1 HP of damage, with a 4% chance to cause an explode result. That means when using four dice, you're looking at ~35% odds to get 1 HP per Zoan.

Thanks for the math! In relation to my calc it turns it to 4 successful casts in two turns, 3 hits

 xttz wrote:
In practice I have found that finding enough dice to activate Warp Blast is rarely an issue. The Tyranid psychic table will often leave you with several powers that aren't worth using at a given time, leaving you with plenty of charge to use. I've never failed to activate this power under 7E, nor had it denied. Actually hitting the target is another issue, however...

This is all very anecdotal, I've experienced the exact opposite if it's relevant, haven't had a single success

 xttz wrote:
However you shouldn't start discounting Zoans just from these figures. The classic Lascannon in the hands of a marine has similar averages against AV14 (33% for 1 HP, 7% for explodes) and costs a similar amount of points. The Zoanthrope is a swiss-army knife in your Tyranid armoury. While it's not super-reliable at dealing with armour at range, it still has a bunch of other useful tricks that can help: an AP3 blast for nearby MEQs, additional warp charge, a bonus power, better psychic denial, cheap synapse boosts, and of course that invuln save.
Don't think of the Zoanthrope as a walking Lascannon. It's more like an Obliterator that can help you respond to many threats.

For starters, not once did I discount Zoeys, other than the Venomthrope I fill every spare Elite slot with Zo's. I said taking them as AT is bad, and taking them without building to capitalise on rolls of Onslaught isn't great either.
Also, I'm pretty sure that 300 pts of Lascannon Marines is doing more than 1 HP a turn to a Landraider. What's the exact price of 1, I can't check right now.

I'd also like to point out that a Lascannon has over double the range of a Warp Lance.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Compare that 2 hive Crones for the same price are doing 4 glances to AV14 (aka killing it) in the same space of time off Tentaclids alone, have 60" damage projection instead of 24" from the Zo's, and also have the option to Vektor Strike and Drool Cannon. Sure Tentaclids have limited use, but the use of them is actually doing something. And against AV12 or 10 side armour Vektor Striking + template rear armour is a much higher chance of Explode, you will on average get a pen AND a glance a turn, and that's after factoring in the penetration roll and not having to worry about Deny Dice or Jink / cover saves. Much better against heavy armor, much better against light. Crones may have gotten weaker at tank busting - that doesn't make them the worst thing at it in the dex.

The problem is how easy it is to be fooled by Zoanthropes, AV10 AP2 Lance and 3+ Invuls, a few of them must be able to manhandle anything with an AV right... But as seen, once you apply the damage though, and then after that apply that it's close range no mobility, range, you realise they are not Devastators, they do not fill an AT role in any way at all.

You mention anecdotal evidence and you then refer to Tentaclids. Let me go there. My crones came out flying for a good 10 games recently. They fired at least 2 Tentaclids per game. A third of these were against other flyers.

I have so far caused a single HP of damage with tentaclids. BS 3 on one shot weapons is....ugh. No. No no no. Anecdotal evidence, sure but so far I've done diddly squad with tentaclids.

Zoeys?

Well, they're not just anti tank. But people sure as hell get nervous around them. People pull armour away from their range just in case. To be perfectly frank I use the S5 AP3 template more than the lance. It's surprisingly handy to have around. Not to mention Synapse plus whatever else I get - you know, because we can now fire powers at different targets.

Spoletta wrote:
Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:

4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2

Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.

If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.

Ok i'll elaborate a bit.

2 group of zoans casting at 50% and getting an average of 1 cast out should be self explaining.

Those shots hit on a 3+, meaning 2/3 chance, with 2 shots it's an average of 4/3 shots hitting.
Each shot has 1/6 (0.16) chances of glancing and 2/3 (0.66) of penetrating. Multiplied by 4/3 it gives averages of 0.22 glances and 0.88 penetrating. Summed together they give you a bit more than an HP of damage.
Those 0.88 penetrating shots also have a 1/6 chances of causing an explosion and a 1/6 chances of causing an immobilize. Those 0.16 multiplied by 0.88 (doesn't really work like that, probabilities are not linear but 0.88 is close enough to 1 to ignore the non linearity) give a chance to immobilize of around 14% and the same chance of 14% to explode it. This gives a total chance of 28% chance to actually cause something bad to the AV14, no surprise that they avoid the 18 bubble
"just in case".

Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.

People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.

Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.

Anyhow...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...

Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.

As above...

Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.

Replace with..

18 Toxic Hormagaunts

Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.

So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable

2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)

Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.

Base List is currently at....

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

2 Biovores Note one might be dropped

Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.

Need some responses on this folks.

Further ideas and all...

Do I group the Zoeys together? Losing the Assassin Flyrant and grouping the Zoeys together will lose 6 Warp Charge in total, in return for increased odds of the Lance doing things.

I'm leaning toward the following idea...

Drop the Flyrant.
Drop 10 Termagants

Get 18 Toxin Hormagaunts
Get 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.
Group the Zoeys together to have 2 broods of 2 instead of 4 individuals.

Why the Tyrant Guard? Well, someone a number of pages back mentioned the idea of running an unattended Claw brood of Tyrant Guard forward with the swarm and having them suddenly act as a rude surprise to any vehicles they come across with armourbane. 2 of then give 10 attacks on the charge at S5/S6 depending on whether they go Rending Claws (for infantry, enemy MCs or squishy light vehicles) or Claws. It strikes me as a silly...and fun little idea.

The hormagaunt bubble will be my way of apologising to them and giving them a chance to redeem themselves.

And the grouped Zoeys appear to have better odds of lancing if need be and a bit more survivability.

I do have a redundancy of Synapse...but it's always been the way I went.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.

People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.

Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.

That is very savy advice. Last night. I played a game in which I was getting destroyed, thanks to my tyrant failing all of its cover saves on turn one, and dying turn 2. I had 2 solo broods of zoeys, 3 Warriors, 1 Hive Guard, and 2 wounded dakkafexes left. anyone looking at that list will tell you to kill the dakkafexes first. Unfounded fear of the Zoeys led to my opponent throwing all of their shooting into my zoeys on turn 3 and 4. Zoeys have great saves and 2 wounds each. So it gave me a chance for my Dakkfexes to wreck some major stuff.

I have a regularly opponent who plays drop pod salamanders. I made an offhand comment about people normally not bothering to shoot at my Tyrannofex. So in the last 3-4 games he has poured his entire alpha strike into my Tyrannofex. Sometimes he kills it. Usually he doesn't, but I can always afford to trade my Tyrannofex for an entire round of his shooting. A Tyrannofex isn't an ideal choice in most circumstances, but against this guy, it is my MVP.

Capitalizing on misconceptions is a great way to play. If zoeys screw up your opponents target priority, then run Zoeys. Put some dakkafexes beside them to do the actual damage. Take min squad of Warriors or Shrikes so that when the zoeys go down, you don't lose synapse.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Spoiler:

Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.

People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.

Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.

Anyhow...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...

Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.

As above...

Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.

Replace with..

18 Toxic Hormagaunts

Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.

So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable

2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)

Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.

Base List is currently at....

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

2 Biovores Note one might be dropped

Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.

Need some responses on this folks.

Further ideas and all...

Do I group the Zoeys together? Losing the Assassin Flyrant and grouping the Zoeys together will lose 6 Warp Charge in total, in return for increased odds of the Lance doing things.

I'm leaning toward the following idea...

Drop the Flyrant.
Drop 10 Termagants

Get 18 Toxin Hormagaunts
Get 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.
Group the Zoeys together to have 2 broods of 2 instead of 4 individuals.

Why the Tyrant Guard? Well, someone a number of pages back mentioned the idea of running an unattended Claw brood of Tyrant Guard forward with the swarm and having them suddenly act as a rude surprise to any vehicles they come across with armourbane. 2 of then give 10 attacks on the charge at S5/S6 depending on whether they go Rending Claws (for infantry, enemy MCs or squishy light vehicles) or Claws. It strikes me as a silly...and fun little idea.

The hormagaunt bubble will be my way of apologising to them and giving them a chance to redeem themselves.

And the grouped Zoeys appear to have better odds of lancing if need be and a bit more survivability.

I do have a redundancy of Synapse...but it's always been the way I went.

Keep the zoanthropes separate. 1-man units IMO are the best way to run them.

As for your spare points, I'd either go with the dakkafex or a tyrannofex. I see that you haven't considered the mawloc? I would seriously take him into consideration as well.

Personally, I'd stick with the 3rd flyrant as opposed to going with hormagants. Then again, there's only 1 opponent in my meta who really run wraithknights, but overall, I like the flexibility and mobility of the flyrant better.

Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.

These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.






As to Spoletta, can you share the math for Zo's in a 3 man platform? Do I just multiply the percentage by 3/2 or does changing the amount of shots at the start have a deeper affect on the math? And can you share the math with say 4 or 5 casting dice? If I'm bringing Zopes as a multiple more costly unit it's obviously to take advantage of free Warp Lances and use the unit as dedicated AT, I'd pull some casting casting dice from elsewhere to make the 150 pt investment worth it.

So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I can give that a run - sort of saves painting time as I have to get things done on a limited amount of time.

Left to paint/finish off then...

2nd Dakka Flyrant (at about 60%)
Barbed Hierodule (at about 75%)
10 Termagants. (lol, I hate termagants so much)

Or perhaps 3 Ripper Swarms instead of those 10 Termagants...