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 SHUPPET wrote:
Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.

These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.






As to Spoletta, can you share the math for Zo's in a 3 man platform? Do I just multiply the percentage by 3/2 or does changing the amount of shots at the start have a deeper affect on the math? And can you share the math with say 4 or 5 casting dice? If I'm bringing Zopes as a multiple more costly unit it's obviously to take advantage of free Warp Lances and use the unit as dedicated AT, I'd pull some casting casting dice from elsewhere to make the 150 pt investment worth it.

Multiplying by 3/2 can be reasonable a approximation, but if you want later today when i'm back from work i'll deliver the exact math.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.

These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.

Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable or effective at a given time. For example, it's very plausible to end up with Psychic Scream on a slow unit, roll The Horror against Fearless opposition, have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on. In fact you have to be pretty lucky to avoid this situation.
In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds isn't exactly a stretch. It's not like I'm claiming that the one time my Hive Guard glanced down a Land Raider is justification for taking always them against Land Raiders. I'm saying that something with a fairly high success rate tends to succeed fairly often. If anything, your anecdotal account of "I haven't had a single success" is more misleading.

But let's change the subject!

I just finished painting up a big pile of Warriors I scored a while ago on ebay. Because sometimes I prefer to play Warhammer instead of Mathhammer, I'd like to play a list that will use the majority of these guys as they look pretty awesome en mass. Here is what I have on the bench:

~Warriors~
8 with Deathspitter + ScyTals
4 with Devourer + ScyTals
2 with Devourer + Rending Claws
4 with Biocannon + ScyTals (3 Barbed Strangler, 1 VC)

~Shrikes~
1 with twin Boneswords
5 with Rending Claws
I guess the wings will count as ScyTals

1 Prime with Deathspitter + Lashwhip/Bonesword
1 Prime with converted Miasma Cannon

This comes to around 1100pts WYSIWYG.

What should I fill the remaining 700-800pts of my list with to best complement these dudes? Obviously this isn't super-competitive, but at the same time I'm not planning on fielding Pyrovores and the like. I'm torn between sticking with an all mid-sized-bugs theme, supporting them with Hive Guard, Venoms and Zoans. On the other hand I could put down a few Fexes with those points (last month I finished painting my 9th one for a recent Apoc game) to absorb fire. There are a couple of decent formations that use Warriors + Fexes too.

Tell me Dakka Hive Mind, what do you think?

 xttz wrote:


Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable

Indeed you did, except that misses the underlying point BEHIND the math, is that if you arent building to be capitalising on the Tyranid Powers, you shouldn't be taking them. Yes, if you have a bunch of crap powers, Warp Lance might be the best option. However, this doesn't make it any better or any more likely to get results - it just means you've wasted points on Zoanthropes. Warriors for starters give a much nicer Synapse support in that they provide pinning and a BIG melee threat, every game. In effect:

or have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on

This is a situation that should never come up. Pushing any of our close range Blunderbuss MCs into shooting range of the DZ turn 1 is huge. If they are deployed backfield it can secure second turn shooting on something that wouldn't be in range till turn 3. If you are playing a list with units that don't get a massive bonus to efficiency and threat range from Onslaught every game, then you shouldn't be taking Zoeys. They don't fill any role other than Synapse, with 1 random roll on a table with 3-4 useless results. They need to be looked at as additional rolls for Onslaught, with Catalyst to mitigate damage the times you don't, Paroxysm and the Horror being acceptable situationally, with the bonus of being a Synapse peg. Taking them for Synapse and hoping you roll Catalyst with a 20% chance to, or hoping to get all 3 in 18" range of a tank for two turns and rolling a 6 to explode, well doing this just cements the nerf to your army that IB can have. Synapse has now hurt you massively, because a lot of the time, in effect you'll have brought a list 150 pts smaller than your opponents - Zopes without Catalyst aren't doing gak, certainly not 200 pts worth of gak, or 6 warriors with 2x cannons worth of gak, if you will.

In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds

Ok, so you've spent 12-15 warp dice to generate two hits, assuming all succeed. Each sqad combined has brought a total of 6 dice to the pool. You've just taken all the dice from your Flyrants and your randomly generated dice on top the 6 they brought, and you still aren't in the cost effective zone. You've got a likely 2 hits for 150 pts, and your Flyrants are worse. They already have 4 rolls and cross field mobility - Flyrants are practically guaranteed to have something worth casting. For the games that they don't, blowing more points on a conduit to use their Warp Dice for Warp Lances is not very good justification - you are compounding the issue.


Also, about where you said my statement is anecdotal - that was the point, I even specifically stated that it was an anecdotal recount, saying I haven't succeeded a single time is just as irrelevant to a competitive discussion as saying it never gets denied, or that I get far better results / lucky rolls than the statistics say I should. For every person who gets a good roll someone else gets a bad one - it's the nature of the game. Using lucky rolls as justification to ignore the logic that it shouldn't happen - by all means, take whichever units you like the flavour of most, but in a competitive discussion, such fables are not a better quality argument than actual math statistics and logic.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.

This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.

What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?

 xttz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.

These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.

Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable or effective at a given time. For example, it's very plausible to end up with Psychic Scream on a slow unit, roll The Horror against Fearless opposition, have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on. In fact you have to be pretty lucky to avoid this situation.
In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds isn't exactly a stretch. It's not like I'm claiming that the one time my Hive Guard glanced down a Land Raider is justification for taking always them against Land Raiders. I'm saying that something with a fairly high success rate tends to succeed fairly often. If anything, your anecdotal account of "I haven't had a single success" is more misleading.

But let's change the subject!

I just finished painting up a big pile of Warriors I scored a while ago on ebay. Because sometimes I prefer to play Warhammer instead of Mathhammer, I'd like to play a list that will use the majority of these guys as they look pretty awesome en mass. Here is what I have on the bench:

~Warriors~
8 with Deathspitter + ScyTals
4 with Devourer + ScyTals
2 with Devourer + Rending Claws
4 with Biocannon + ScyTals (3 Barbed Strangler, 1 VC)

~Shrikes~
1 with twin Boneswords
5 with Rending Claws
I guess the wings will count as ScyTals

1 Prime with Deathspitter + Lashwhip/Bonesword
1 Prime with converted Miasma Cannon

This comes to around 1100pts WYSIWYG.

What should I fill the remaining 700-800pts of my list with to best complement these dudes? Obviously this isn't super-competitive, but at the same time I'm not planning on fielding Pyrovores and the like. I'm torn between sticking with an all mid-sized-bugs theme, supporting them with Hive Guard, Venoms and Zoans. On the other hand I could put down a few Fexes with those points (last month I finished painting my 9th one for a recent Apoc game) to absorb fire. There are a couple of decent formations that use Warriors + Fexes too.

Tell me Dakka Hive Mind, what do you think?

If you want to stick with a theme, I would fill it out with termagants, rippers, and a few carnifexan here and there. Go for a living tide style list. You should have Synapse covered pretty well, so IB shouldn't be a problem. Besides the rippers it would also be a pretty shooty list, so Carnifex gun platforms would fit the visual well.

VP is a hard mission for Nids no matter what.

The good thing is that they take a decent amount of firepower to die (usually) so if your opponent shots at single models, that's that much less firepower at your other units.

tag8833 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.

That would really depend on the person and his local meta. Whereas I generally advocate dakka flyrants as the best all-purpose Tyranid unit, if he feels that the reaper flyrant is more necessary to deal with the armies in his locale, then that's really up to him. But 3 dakka flyrants and a barbed hierodule do give you pretty good board control.

Obsidorox wrote:
This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.

What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?

So what are the advantages of solo zoans over a unit of 2 zoans?

1. Slightly easier to cast Warp Blast due to needing fewer warp dice.

2. The unit is more resilient, especially in VP missions.


So what the the advantages of solo zoans over a unit of 2 zoans?

1. More warp charges, as in double the warp charges.

2. More psychic powers.

3. You can spread Synapse around.

4. Harder to deny. For a unit of 2, you only need 1 successful deny to stop them. For 2 units of 1, you need 2 denies.

5. Force the enemy to overkill. 1 unit of devastators can just as easily kill 1 unit of 2 zoans as they can 1 unit of 1. However, with the unit of 1, they are wasting shots as the excess unsaved wounds are wasted.

6. 5 out of 6 missions are Objectives-based. All maelstrom missions are objectives-based. 1 unit of 2 can only claim/deny 1 objective. Solo zoans can claim/deny multiple objectives.


I really see almost no reason to take multiple zoans as opposed to solo zoans.

Obsidorox wrote:
This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.

What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?

Kill points is kind of a stupid mission who's outcome is generally predetermined based on list building. Played straight I generally lose kill point games, but with a few modifications, you can make kill points work better.

Option #1: Make sure both armies have the same number of available kill points. 90% of my opponents are fine with this. The most common mechanic is to either force combat squading of marines or just pick certain units to be worth multiple kill points. If you have 16 kill points and your opponent only has 10, allow him to nominate 6 units that are worth 2 kill points each. My opinion is that this makes a relatively good game.

Option #2: Use kill points in a list building points sort of way. Rather than valuing all units the same, value them based on their unit cost. So killing a dakkafex is as valuable as killing 3 zoenthropes. This isn't quite as ideal.

Even if you use these modifications, Tyranids are generally going to have a major disadvantage in Kill points games (because of short range shooting). Meanwhile, gunlines like Tau, IG or certain Eldar and Marine builds are always going to have an advantage. Deathstars and LOW are going to have a huge advantage. I think that is why I generally see people moving away from kill point missions. Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage. They are probably right, but it frustrates players that don't play those builds.

There is also a certain degree of Kill points feeling more satisfying. The other day I won a game against Marine Gunline. All I had left on the table were 1 Genestealer and 3 Termagaunts that failed synapse and were running away. My Genestealer had the relic, so it didn't matter that 60% of the marines were left. I won that game, but my opponent felt like he had won it, because I was 1 turn from being tabled.

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!

I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.

That would really depend on the person and his local meta. Whereas I generally advocate dakka flyrants as the best all-purpose Tyranid unit, if he feels that the reaper flyrant is more necessary to deal with the armies in his locale, then that's really up to him. But 3 dakka flyrants and a barbed hierodule do give you pretty good board control.

As it stands I could, at a pinch pull off the LW/BS and replace with Twin Devourers....but....really...

Really I'm waiting to get hold of a pair of Hive Tyrant wings and a Hive Tyrant torso so I can build my last Flyrant. Currently have the legs, head and tail spare from the kit....

So if any 'nid players really want to help out I'd not say no. Wings and a Torso are a pain to find as I need both rather than one or the other.

I also like the assassin as he's something of a unique twist. Most people take Dakka - which can beat up small units on its own but to be frank most tooled up SM/CSM/etc character types will do a dirty on a Flyrant. Sure, he's AP 2 but lacks trimmings, only has his base attacks and no fancy shenanigans. The Assassin Flyrant has much higher initiative and the potential for ID on him.

 jy2 wrote:


I really see almost no reason to take multiple zoans as opposed to solo zoans.

The main reason, in spite of 7E, is still the FOC. There aren't any non-Apoc formations for our decent Elite options, so unless you're building the rest of your force with 2 primary detatchments then 3 Zoanthropes means no Venoms or Hive Guard.

While KP missions may not be too common, don't forget about First Blood. Single Zoans aren't really any harder to take down than a pair of Space Marines for most weapons, and that's basically a freebie VP for your opponent.

The psychic activation thing also works both ways. Three units of 1 Zoan will need 12 warp charge to reliably activate their shooting attacks. One unit of three can get away with 4-5 dice for the same number of shots. I guess that part depends on how much you plan to use them for shooting though. Granted, you're generating less charge too, but its easier to find extra 2 dice for one unit than to find 6 extra dice for three.

tag8833 wrote:
Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage.

Quoted for truth. Just like how some are banning most of Stronghold Assault but allowing Skyshields, easily the most broken fortification. Gotta protect those beatsticks...

I think 7th really helps Tyranids (and other armies and builds) in a number of ways, but unfortunately on the tourney scene there are some parties out there who aren't inclined to allow our bugs to take full advantage.

Obsidorox wrote:
This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.

What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?

It kinda depends on your "meta". I run Zoeys in x2 Broods...Venos as well. But I've posted lists a plenty that use solo 'thropes. It just depends on what you local environment is like... So...try running them singled, and change if that does not work well...

Working on an 1850 Tourney list for a possible competition coming up.

Flyrant w/Devourers, electro
Flyrant w/Devourers, electro

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

Ripper Swarm w/Deepstrike
Ripper Swarm w/Deepstrike
Ripper Swarm w/Deepstrike
Ripper Swarm w/Deepstrike

Crone

Carnifex w/Adrenal Glands, Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal Glands, Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal Glands, Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal Glands, Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal Glands, Devourers

Lots of firepower, lots of single units so kill points are a weakness. But its also a lot of things to have to overkill and shoot at. Plenty of ways to kill most any kind of vehicle.

I have about 20 points to spare. I could drop a zoan and a ripper swarm and pickup a Warrior brood for wider synapse and securing deployment side objectives. Depending on tourny rules I could drop the crone and pickup a third Flyrant, although I only have a WYSIWYG Reaper Tyrant to fill that role. I could also pick up a 6th Carnifex, but would lose synapse sources.

Iechine! I like...my big concern with that list though is the Rippers. I keep wanting to take them myself by the realisation that S6 will ID them to comical effect. With the amount of S6 flamers or ranged multishot S6+ weapons....I almost feel they're a horrible weakness in themselves.

The Carnifexes look promising though...I don't have that many lone fexes myself so my varaint of the list would be say, 2 broods of termagants?

I like them because they dont run and they are really easy to hide with such a low profile. Ive just gotten tired of Gants not carrying their weight through the end game when things get messy. You're right about the ID weakness, but consider that the alternative is roughly 4x10 units of Termagants that have to walk up the field AND not flee when out of synapse.

I need to buy two more Carnifexes, which I guess Ill do tomorrow. I think if I played it Id constantly be casting dominion to keep everyone corralled.

 Iechine wrote:
I like them because they dont run and they are really easy to hide with such a low profile. Ive just gotten tired of Gants not carrying their weight through the end game when things get messy. You're right about the ID weakness, but consider that the alternative is roughly 4x10 units of Termagants that have to walk up the field AND not flee when out of synapse.

I need to buy two more Carnifexes, which I guess Ill do tomorrow. I think if I played it Id constantly be casting dominion to keep everyone corralled.

I suppose it depends largely on the local meta - if you know there's not a lot of S6+ floating around it's ok...but here? Well, it's a mostly SMs with other armies fielding things like Vindicators, S6 flame templates or blast templates galore.

Here's a list I've been refining for a while, incorporating feedback from this thread and posters. Thoughts?

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Venomthrope, 45 pts

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Heavy Support: 1 Exocrine, 170 pts

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Fortification: 1x Imperial Bastion, 75 pts

Combined Arms Detachment:

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Heavy Support: 3 Biovore Brood, 120 pts

Right. Overhaul time, inspired by different thoughts and also by Iechine's strange experiment!

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

2 Biovores

 AesSedai wrote:
Here's a list I've been refining for a while, incorporating feedback from this thread and posters. Thoughts?

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Venomthrope, 45 pts

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Heavy Support: 1 Exocrine, 170 pts

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Fortification: 1x Imperial Bastion, 75 pts

Combined Arms Detachment:

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Heavy Support: 3 Biovore Brood, 120 pts

Really solid list. I think you know what you are doing with it and it doesn't look like it can be improved much. Congrats.

I personally don't like running more than 2 Flyrants, they are so pricey even if the first 2 are very necessary. If I had to make one suggestion it would be dropping the third Flyrant. Especially since he basically costs 80 pts extra in termagant tax, as without him you could be taking a Living Artillery Formation to give your Bivores and Exocrine Twin-Linked Blasts and Pinning, and the much larger threat of Warriors, with at least 1 twin-linked Pinning Venom Cannon. You could also take a Tyrannofex or another Exocrine or something with the left over points, these things are also great utility for Onslaught and Master of Ambush.


However, if you want the third Flyrant I can completely understand that, and its just a personal preference of my own, like I said you have a very cohorent list and obviously know what you are doing, and if three Flyrants is what you want, I honestly don't think that you can do it any better than this. Great list.


EDIT: I don't play at over 1850 pts ever, and at 2000 pts the extra Flyrant may be more important. I generally don't like Bastion at anything lower than 2000, but at 2000 I'd definitely take it. I actually have a 3rd Flyrant and a Bastion painted up that both go largely unused - I'm going to be giving your list a go next time someone asks me if its ok to bring 2000 pts for a battle.

 gorgon wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage.

Quoted for truth. Just like how some are banning most of Stronghold Assault but allowing Skyshields, easily the most broken fortification. Gotta protect those beatsticks...

I think 7th really helps Tyranids (and other armies and builds) in a number of ways, but unfortunately on the tourney scene there are some parties out there who aren't inclined to allow our bugs to take full advantage.

I still think that orks and nids should have access to a second CAD, our units just cost too little. When you can fill an elite slot with 40 points (45 realistically, no one takes our flamy mascots), a FA with 60 (even 15 with spore mines) and an heavy with 35 you feel that not allowing any faction to a second CAD is a one sided decision that favors some codex over others. Unfortunately tournament rules are dictated by major tourneys, which can't risk too much, so they will cater to the usual competitive players, which will bring the usual competitive lists. Anything that risks to alien part of the player base, even if it could be a sound change, cannot be done, so i don't think we will ever see tournament changes to level the play field.

That being said, we have really large REALLY large Tourney legal FOC formations, and I believe Orks have a larger FOC to begin with and their dataslates are inbound. I think it's kind of fair from an FOC standpoint for us at least atm.

In fact the problem with FOC is tipically fixed by taking either skyblight or bio blast.
Actually thinking about it a bit more i finally found why we really struggle with FOC and why we should be allowed a second CAD:

We do not have any out of foc purchase i.e. dedicated transports. Those usually take a good chunk of points in the majority of competitive lists, while each and every one of our points must go into the FOC.

That's true. But mostly to blame for that is the fact that they put the tiniest amount of effort possible into the writing of our dex. I want Mycetic Spores back ;(

Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?

I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.

I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.

tag8833 wrote:
Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?

I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.

I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.

When I use them I use them in conjunction with Gants, press with the Gants and a HQ Tervigon spawning away. And leave the Rippers on a homefiels objective, leave them out of sight and don't mention them again.

 AesSedai wrote:
Here's a list I've been refining for a while, incorporating feedback from this thread and posters. Thoughts?

Total Roster Cost: 2000

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Zoanthrope, 50 pts

Elite: 1 Venomthrope, 45 pts

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Troops: 3 Ripper Swarm Brood, 45 pts
Deep Strike

Heavy Support: 1 Exocrine, 170 pts

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Heavy Support: 2 Carnifex Brood, 300 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2

Fortification: 1x Imperial Bastion, 75 pts

Combined Arms Detachment:

HQ: 1 Hive Tyrant, 240 pts
TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms x2, Wings, Electroshock Grubs

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Troops: 10x Termagants, 40pts

Heavy Support: 3 Biovore Brood, 120 pts

Good list for a triple Tyrant, but asI am not a fan of the triple tyrant I would swap the second CAD out for a Living Attillery node and maybe a Mawloc.

tag8833 wrote:
Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?

I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.

I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.

I definitely prefer Gants, however if I see Rippers in somebody's list I don't bother mentioning it, barely a points difference and if they prefer Rippers more power to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Good list for a triple Tyrant, but asI am not a fan of the triple tyrant I would swap the second CAD out for a Living Attillery node and maybe a Mawloc.

Yeah do this and drop the bastion and you literally have my 1850 pt list. Not bad advice here. But personal preference is a thing too, so up to you.

Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.

My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.

P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them




I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!

 foto69man wrote:
Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.

My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.

P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them




I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!

Living artillery is 3 units of HGaunts + 3 units of TGaunts + 1 unit of warriors. You only have 2 Units of TGaunts.