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Zodiark wrote:

Before I continue, Remember: Unit applies to the group of models as a whole in a unit (most players call them squads) and INDIVIDUAL units that make up their own unit. They never lose this unit type, ever, unless you can quote me a direct rule stating that they lose their unit status or their IC status for the remainder of the game then this point cannot be disputed. An IC can freely come and go from another unit, yet it still remains its own unit in all these things.

We already covered this earlier in the thread. There is zero rules basis for assuming that an IC can be a member of more than one unit at the same time, and if you do assume that the game breaks and you remove any point in joining ICs to units in the first place.

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

Before I continue, Remember: Unit applies to the group of models as a whole in a unit (most players call them squads) and INDIVIDUAL units that make up their own unit. They never lose this unit type, ever, unless you can quote me a direct rule stating that they lose their unit status or their IC status for the remainder of the game then this point cannot be disputed. An IC can freely come and go from another unit, yet it still remains its own unit in all these things.

We already covered this earlier in the thread. There is zero rules basis for assuming that an IC can be a member of more than one unit at the same time, and if you do assume that the game breaks and you remove any point in joining ICs to units in the first place.

Again if you are looking for a specific sentence, you would be right. But in the absence of a supporting sentence from your side of the discussion, your assertion becomes null and void as well.

Serious question though.

If so many people can agree that an IC has his own individual unit at all times and more importantly, can accept it as RAW, then why are you fighting against it so hard?

YMDC from what I understand from these "tenets" that people keep messaging me about is meant to focus on things that are debatable or unclear in the rules. I could be wrong, but when you use the words You Make Da Call, this then becomes a matter of opinion and preference than actual fact or rules which, tbh is pointless when someone comes seeking answers to an actual rule that really is not vague or anything of the sort.

IIRC an IC is his own unit, he never stops being an individual.

Example: I put Ezekiel in a squad of Tactical Marines. He doesn't cease to be an Independent Character. I could see the argument that would support your side of the discussion, but seeing as there is nothing stating in the rules that he loses this, the answer is obvious, he doesn't.

But he does cease to be an independent unit, otherwise he can't get into a Rhino with them, because only Superheavies normally have permission to embark more than one unit.

 azreal13 wrote:
But he does cease to be an independent unit, otherwise he can't get into a Rhino with them, because only Superheavies normally have permission to embark more than one unit.

No he simply accompanies that particular unit. His unit type does not change, it never does. Unless specifically stated within the rules as many of you want to say, nothing changes. Yet the RAW allow an IC to join another unit and embark together. It mentions nothing about the IC losing his independent unit status.

Independent Unit doesn't exist as a game term.

Independent Character is a clearly defined set of special rules that allow for the joining of the unit to a other unit, to make one unit, until the IC decides to leave.

They are not two units, otherwise, like I said, they couldn't embark transports together.



I direct your attention to the first two lines of this screen grab from the digi BRB

 azreal13 wrote:
Independent Unit doesn't exist as a game term.

Independent Character is a clearly defined set of special rules that allow for the joining of the unit to a other unit, to make one unit, until the IC decides to leave.

They are not two units, otherwise, like I said, they couldn't embark transports together.

I'll stick with the RAW and basic reading comprehension.

Until something that specifically states for or against, I'll play it how it reads and how the people I play with it play it, which tbh, is the best any of us can do since people are looking for an explicit statement that supports one side or another

Btw, the answer is in the pick. He counts as being a part of that unit, exactly what I have been saying, but nowhere does it say he loses his own unit status.

"He counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

(hint: he doesn't lose his own unit status, the unit he joins simply takes precedence over his own)

Thanks for proving my point

/End Discussion, you've answered your own argument in support of mine

So the RAW is he is part of the unit "for all rules purposes"

Edit in response to edit

Feth me.

 azreal13 wrote:
So the RAW is he is part of the unit "for all rules purposes"

Yes I am aware of that, hence why I am saying RAW. But you will notice, his own unit status is not being taken away, the unit he is joining is simply the one that is being applied according to the rules.

But back to the individual Psykers, multiples joining together would still resolve the spells on an individual basis, not a group unit.

What is "unit status?"

There is no such thing, just nothing in the rules, that corresponds to that.

Independent character is a USR, HQ is a FOC designation, character is a unit type, but there isn't "unit status" as a defined term, and you seem to be hanging a lot of your argument on it n

 azreal13 wrote:
What is "unit status?"

There is no such thing, just nothing in the rules, that corresponds to that.

Independent character is a USR, HQ is a FOC designation, character is a unit type, but there isn't "unit status" as a defined term, and you seem to be hanging a lot of your argument on it n

I'm not using status as a defined term, I am simply stating it as its state of being. Its state of being, if this works better for you is defined as Independent Character. Even if he joins another unit, he NEVER loses this state of being. Refer to previous examples.

BRB entry you provided supports the rest of my statements

No, it doesn't, it supports everyone else's argument you just don't see it.

You are confusing HIWPI for RAW.

Independent Character, as defined is a special rule, like Furious Charge or Feel No Pain. It gives permission for a model to join other units and become one unit, as outlined in my screen grab, amongst other benefits.

You can hold the opinion, and indeed play the game, that the IC is still considered a separate unit from the point of view of casting powers, but it is unsupported by RAW, and if you are going to start arguing there are circumstances where an IC is considered part of a unit (embarking) and isn't (casting powers) you're going to have a hard time.

 azreal13 wrote:
No, it doesn't, it supports everyone else's argument you just don't see it.

You are confusing HIWPI for RAW.

Independent Character, as defined is a special rule, like Furious Charge or Feel No Pain. It gives permission for a model to join other units and become one unit, as outlined in my screen grab, amongst other benefits.

You can hold the opinion, and indeed play the game, that the IC is still considered a separate unit from the point of view of casting powers, but it is unsupported by RAW, and if you are going to start arguing there are circumstances where an IC is considered part of a unit (embarking) and isn't (casting powers) you're going to have a hard time.

To quote an earlier debater

"Show me the exact sentence, paragraph and page" that states that it loses its status as an IC

This isn't an opinion I am stating, this is answers to question that I myself asked just the other day to the entire store receiving the same answers I have listed here, so if you wanna talk opinions, theirs has more value than yours in my book.

HIWPI? I play RAW because I have yet to come across anything that I couldn't find an obvious answer to since I started.

Your screen grab explicit states that he counts as part of the unit he joins, but it makes no mention of him losing his status as an IC because, as you say, it is a special rule that he has, but he never loses it, which, reading comprehension dictates allows him to be considered an IC no matter what unit he is in, including a unit of other IC, so when resolving or casting a Psyker power, you would do so on an individual basis as per BRB and RAW rather than as a whole unit, this being the total squad that he is in

To reiterate

Show me the exact sentence, paragraph and page that defines unit status.

IC is a rule, not a state of mind!

It explicitly states he becomes part of the unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. The rule for casting says one unit = one attempt.

Characters =/= Independent Characters. He can continue to follow the rules for characters because the rules for characters are not necessarily applicable solely to ICs, Sergeants are also characters for instance, are you arguing they simultaneously count as part of the unit and their own special mini super secret squirrel unit too?

 azreal13 wrote:
To reiterate

Show me the exact sentence, paragraph and page that defines unit status.

IC is a rule, not a state of mind!

It explicitly states he becomes part of the unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. The rule for casting says one unit = one attempt.

Characters =/= Independent Characters. He can continue to follow the rules for characters because the rules for characters are not necessarily applicable solely to ICs, Sergeants are also characters for instance, are you arguing they simultaneously count as part of the unit and their own special mini super secret squirrel unit too?

The rules for casting say select one Psyker in one place and select one Psyker unit in another. Which was discussed earlier in this thread. The way to go about doing this is how it was taught to me and what I understood from the rules the first of the dozen times I read the BRB.

Using your style of debate, if I have a Psyker in a unit of tactical marines and I select a Psyker unit, the entire squad would thus be considered a Psyker now and would thus be effected by Perils? If the answer is anything but no, you are by far missing the point and clearly not understanding the RAW

Kindly provide page references, as forgive me, but your precision is such that I'm not willing to take your word for it.

 azreal13 wrote:
Kindly provide page references, as forgive me, but your precision is such that I'm not willing to take your word for it.

Stated this earlier, scroll up and reread and you'll find where I found them, not going to do the work for you sir.

Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

Hollismason wrote:
Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

Hey someone else gets it, you get +1 internets today

To be fair, you should first read what your codex states then read BRB for an answer, we only deal in theoretical here it seems

From the rules though.

A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit - if no mastery level is shown, then that unit has a mastery level of 1.

From there calculate as normal

Hollismason wrote:
Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

RAW
As it specifies Psyker units for generating warp charge, and for manifesting a power, I would use the majority characteristic rule for mastery level and the unit as a whole could only attempt to cast a specific power once.

HIWPI
Ignore the reference of the word "unit" and use total mastery levels and allow the IC and unit to both cast it if they both could.

 azreal13 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

RAW
As it specifies Psyker units for generating warp charge, and for manifesting a power, I would use the majority characteristic rule for mastery level and the unit as a whole could only attempt to cast a specific power once.

HIWPI
Ignore the reference of the word "unit" and use total mastery levels and allow the IC and unit to both cast it if they both could.

His version of HIWPI is RAW but not Rules as Interpreted

RAI is rules as intended dude, it means how you think the designer intended it to work, even if it isn't technically written that way.

 azreal13 wrote:
RAI is rules as intended dude, it means how you think the designer intended it to work, even if it isn't technically written that way.

I know what RAI is, Rules as Interpreted is something that popped into my head because all I've seen today are different interpretations and opinions on RAW

Ok, fabulous.

Hollismason wrote:
Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

Yes, that's been the point from the start. The rules simply do not cover it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zodiark wrote:
If so many people can agree that an IC has his own individual unit at all times and more importantly, can accept it as RAW, then why are you fighting against it so hard?

I'm not 'fighting against it'... I'm discussing it in a forum that is intended for this sort of discussion, and I am presenting a dissenting opinion to that presented by several other people because I disagree with it.

That's how discussion works.

IIRC an IC is his own unit, he never stops being an individual.

Example: I put Ezekiel in a squad of Tactical Marines. He doesn't cease to be an Independent Character. I could see the argument that would support your side of the discussion, but seeing as there is nothing stating in the rules that he loses this, the answer is obvious, he doesn't.

You have apparently misunderstood the issue, then.

Nobody has claimed that he ceases to be an Independant Character. But he ceases to be a separate unit. He has to cease to be a separate unit, because if he doesn't then there is absolutely no point in him joining the unit... you would still have able to target him separately, as he is a distinct unit. As someone else pointed out, the unit would be unable to enter a transport or a building, as there would then be two units in there. And the statement in the rules for ICs leaving units (to the effect that they once again 'become' a single-model unit) would be a trifle peculiar, since you can't 'become' something that you already are.

'IC' is not a unit type.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zodiark wrote:
From the rules though.

A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker unit...

Where are you seeing '...at least...' in the rules?

Zodiark wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Again, someone explain to me what Psychic Level a unit with a ML3 joins a ML1 Brother Hood of Psykers.

If their not treated seperate for rules you cannot answer that question and the game breaks.

Hey someone else gets it, you get +1 internets today

Pfft, I was doing it before it went mainstream.

I can't be the only one basking in the irony here. It's almost like deja vu.

I understand you believe that the IC remains being a unit of one. except he doesn't. This rule shows definitively that your interpretation is in error, otherwise this rule would not make sense. This has been stated a few times, and never addressed by your argument.

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase – once shots are fired or charges are declared, it is too late to join in or duck out! An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

You can't say he again becomes something at the start of the following phase, if he was already that. I wish your interpretation was true. But it simply isn't.

So my Pink Horrors are Mastery Level 3 since there is no written rule or is the Herald who joins them Level 1?

Hollismason wrote:
So my Pink Horrors are Mastery Level 3 since there is no written rule or is the Herald who joins them Level 1?

Technically, since its noy stated anywhere... it would be mastery level 1 by the interpretation that you count them together hahaha

Hollismason wrote:
So my Pink Horrors are Mastery Level 3 since there is no written rule or is the Herald who joins them Level 1?

Since in this case as the rule brothergood confers to the herald and the only model in that unit with a mastery level is the herald while he is in it they are mastery lvl 3 but so much breaks when an established psyker joins a brotherhood unit.

Okay again thought the only time in the rules we have permission for gaining a psyker unit is brotherhood as it is a confering USR that states about making psyker units. If I am wrong so where in the psyker or psychic pilot rule that it confers to other models and where in them.it stats that they make a psychic unit and will concede the point

per the digi codex drop down highlights.

Psyker is either a psychic pilot, or psyker.

psyker unit refers to both the brother hoods.

so pink horrors, and a herald of tzentch (sp) are not a psyker unit just the horrors, so yes they both can cast flickering fire during the psychic phase. i would post the highlighted rules but allas we cant do that.